View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    no the general election was about BREXIT.

    liberal democrats opposed it, and got a very minor share of the vote. CON/LAB/UKIP pledged to carry out the will of the people and got 85% of the vote.

    85% is an overwhelming majority.
    Are you still harpering on about this bullshit.

    Reason 85% of the country voted for "Pro Brexit" parties is FIRST PAST THE FUCKING POST. You were explained this time and again. I for one hate the MP that is here. During the election while there were 5 choices to put my X against only 1 has the chance to beat them. Low and behold this one person is a Labour candidate. So I put my X next to Labour. But at no point am I ever going to follow in line cheering behind the mass self harm this country is going to perform with brexit.

    Nearly everyone I know who voted labour did so because of FPTP when they hate brexit. If we had a PR system my vote would have gone for Lib Dems or Greens because then it would not have been wasted on some feel good protest but still actually mean something. Now why don't you get off your high horse and join reality. Tactical voting is the only way to vote in the UK because of the undemocratic pile of shit known as FPTP.

    So no not 85% support Brexit. It's 85% understand that you have two choices and chose the one that was least reprehensable for them.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Arguing there is no logic or wisdom for being in favor or brexit seems to be taking a narrow focus on geopolitics.
    if you want to complain about that argument, you have to actually present some logical reasons for wanting brexit - reasons based on facts, not the shit that comes from the mouth/twitter feed of Nigel Farage - feel free to provide some, no-one else here can so far
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2017-10-19 at 02:46 PM.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post

    How is remaining a wise choice other than economic reasons? You argue it is wisdom but if you look beyond economic reasons people argued for passion reasons as well to stay.

    So the side that was more passionate than the other won. That is easy to understand.

    Arguing there is no logic or wisdom for being in favor or brexit seems to be taking a narrow focus on geopolitics.
    i didn't say anything about right or wrong, and didn't use the word logic.
    I did use however the word wisdom for the remain vote, and stand by it.

    I think pretty much both side would agree that the leave vote was the "uncertain" one. The remain vote "same old, same old", but the leave vote throttled the UK into the unknown, without much preparation either.

    You won't argue against the fact that the leave campaign try to touch the patriotic fiber of the british people. Control of the border was a big arguing point of the campaign. Economically, the leavers only saw the active contribution of the UK to the EU and figure they could keep that money for themselves. They did not see however, or underestimate the massive benefit, hidden or not, of being a member of the EU.

    Today, the british government, and the british people maybe, starting to realize the consequences of the vote. You only see how good you had it when you lost it.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    There is something seriously wrong with the things Floope and Dribbles are saying on this forum. A bit of deeper research shows that nearly none of it is based in facts and a lot of it sounds like the fake news spam you find on social media by bots. This misinformation of westerners is getting ridiculous. It's like we're living among a bunch of zombified people who are being mind-controlled by foreign agencies.
    Dribbles just hates Germans and thinks that Germany is out to create the 4th Reich. He also has had posts that contradict each other mere minutes apart. Like Tata steel issue where he bitched about the EU not helping, then when he was told it was Cameron stopping the EU from helping he praised Cameron stopping the EU doing what he bitched about the EU not doing. They're immune to logic but you can't just ignore them. when these people are ignored their toxic spreads which is why you need to counter them until they cave in.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    if you want to complain about that argument, you have to present some actually logical reasons for wanting brexit, that are based on facts rather then shit that comes from the mouth/twitter feed of Nigel Farage - feel free to provide some, no-one else here can so far
    The facts have been presented in this thread but it appears you are not willing to read or listen.

    Here are the emotional arguments for staying:

    1. Scientific collaboration diminished - The fear with Brexit is that scientific collaboration would be weakened. But as I highlighted above scientists don't take hard line stance or let politics divide their pursuit of knowledge by sharing information with their scientific peers.

    2. Loss of easier access for work - This is not true given what we know based on lax EU work policies ( Turks overstay their work period in Germany for example).

    3. Loss of access for students to study abroad - Again this isn't a loss when there are scholarships offered every semester to students from non EU nations.

    So lets go to the economic reasons....currency?

    So what incentive is there to stay? To be part of EU that wants to become more than just an economic body but a governing body? And to become a legitimate governing body an EU army must be formed. Who is going to pay? Who is going to provide the troops and logistics?

    The EU will be stronger when it returns to an economic body and not a pseudo "superpower".

    If the EU can not sort out its economic problems with the PIGS than it has not business trying to play off as a "superpower" and throwing its weight around arrogantly.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Dribbles just hates Germans and thinks that Germany is out to create the 4th Reich. He also has had posts that contradict each other mere minutes apart. Like Tata steel issue where he bitched about the EU not helping, then when he was told it was Cameron stopping the EU from helping he praised Cameron stopping the EU doing what he bitched about the EU not doing. They're immune to logic but you can't just ignore them. when these people are ignored their toxic spreads which is why you need to counter them until they cave in.
    You want contradictions minutes apart?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    So I put my X next to Labour.
    Ladies and Gentlemen we have another convert, welcome to the Brexiteers club. Thanks for voting for Brexit, my enemies enemy and all that.....it's people like you that will actually make Brexit happen, nice to know you made a difference hey!
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The facts have been presented in this thread but it appears you are not willing to read or listen
    i'm the one not willing to read or listen, but you are the one presenting me with random arguments against brexit with your equally random counterpoints, when what I asked for was logical reasons for wanting to leave the EU?

    plenty of things have been presented in this thread, but sadly when my standard of proof is
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    reasons based on facts, not the shit that comes from the mouth/twitter feed of Nigel Farage
    99% of them don't really count as facts

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You want contradictions minutes apart?



    Ladies and Gentlemen we have another convert, welcome to the Brexiteers club. Thanks for voting for Brexit, my enemies enemy and all that.....it's people like you that will actually make Brexit happen, nice to know you made a difference hey!
    Oh look twisting about how FPTP means you have to pick the lesser of two evils and turning it "Oh look they support me."

    Go read a piece of news that isn't from some far right toilet paper known as the Mail or Express.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Oh look twisting about how FPTP means you have to pick the lesser of two evils and turning it "Oh look they support me."

    Go read a piece of news that isn't from some far right toilet paper known as the Mail or Express.
    I have always voted with the courage of my convictions, the same as you along with more than 80% of the UK population and 76% of our MP's. We are very alike, I voted for Brexit and you voted for Brexit. I wouldn't vote for something I didn't believe in and nor would you, abstention is the name of the game there such is our premier form of democracy.

    Gz for voting with the winning side, supporting Brexit and thank you.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    The Left uses fear plenty, just peddles it in different ways.

    I'm sick of people pretending one side is better than the other.
    One party usually is the better option but not by much and they swap places from time to time. The whole all sides are the same-thing is a suppression tactic.
    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2017-10-19 at 03:56 PM.
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  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Guys we are arguing with people called Floopa and dribbles - we already won.
    i think you’ll find leave voters won. we secured majority after majority and continue to do so despite all the remoaners sabotage happening right before our very eyes. you can kick and scream all you want but the reality is that we are exiting the EU and that’s wonderful. harken back to proper British values and traditions

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    i think you’ll find leave voters won. we secured majority after majority and continue to do so despite all the remoaners sabotage happening right before our very eyes. you can kick and scream all you want but the reality is that we are exiting the EU and that’s wonderful. harken back to proper British values and traditions
    And parachute over to France when it goes tits up because you stand by your convictions!

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Please don't agree with me.
    Too late, now you've lost all credibility.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I'm sorry but this is bullshit, absolute bullshit the left uses these tactics also, while not utilizing fear they utilize other emotions. For example it has been noted that during the immigration crisis the right was handing them out stuff like phones and such, while the left was giving them signs with sob stories, the right media displayed only men the left only women. And so forth.

    Also you are being intentionally dishonest, you are going to argue that Poland is the moderate conservative base? The nation that has elected officials that call women inferior human beings? The Nation that is being openly critized by the EU, an EU that is for the largest part right leaning?

    BOTH SIDES DO IT, you seriously need to learn to get past your thinking in boxes and and absolutes. The world is not this black and white.
    Now he got you into talking about "the" left and "the" right, too.
    Outside of the USA there is no justification to add that definite article before right or left.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You want contradictions minutes apart?
    Reading 6 words further was too hard for you, couldn't gather the concentration, right?

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    are you calling the overwhelming majority of the UK raving lunatics?

    leave won with an overwhelming majority, the will of the people has been voiced and that will shall be carried out.
    Leave won with a tiny majority of voters, it wasn't even a majority of the eligible voting population, and we have no idea how many of those would prefer a Norway-type deal or some other sort of Brexit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    a 4% lead is huge.

    in the last GE, conservatives won 42% of the vote and labour won 40% of the vote. conservatives have almost 60 more seats in parliament than labour do.
    Pointing out how shitty our Parliamentary system can be isn't making a case for an "overwhelming" majority.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    exactly. brexit is about wisdom vs naivety, mind vs soul.

    leave voters displayed admirable courage by choosing mind over soul, and by enacting their wisdom over the naive remoaners who wanted the status quo to remain the same.
    The pro-Brexit vote was an obvious and proud rejection of wisdom, remember Gove saying that people were sick of experts telling them things so they should vote Brexit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    The left expects factual arguments to work vs the right uses fear of XYZ to get votes

    Just look at those Eastern Europe like Poland where the government is rallying against Muslims. You could probably count the number of muslims by hand in Poland but just like the Brexit or Trump the current polish government used fear to get votes.
    A big problem with the Brexit vote was Leave and Remain both tried to push fear, though that's possibly because the major players were the right and the slightly further right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    No.

    Over 80% voted for either conservatives or labour, both of which advocated leaving the EU at the general election, a massive majority indeed.

    With many of the cabinet signing up to the latest letter to the PM here... http://www.leavemeansleave.eu/lml-letter-2-pm/ and with the EU failing to accept our generous offer of settlement, it looks like Britain will walk away from the negotiations and the massive majority will get their will fulfilled.

    Well done and a big thumbs up for British democracy!
    That's not how... anything works. You do understand we no longer have the Empire, right, and the EU is a much more signifcant political and economic entity?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    no the general election was about BREXIT.

    liberal democrats opposed it, and got a very minor share of the vote. CON/LAB/UKIP pledged to carry out the will of the people and got 85% of the vote.

    85% is an overwhelming majority.
    The referendum was about Brexit. The general election was about which MPs represent constituencies in the House of Commons and, by extension, which party gets to form a government. Are you sure you are from the UK as these are really basic concepts of our political system?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Are you still harpering on about this bullshit.

    Reason 85% of the country voted for "Pro Brexit" parties is FIRST PAST THE FUCKING POST. You were explained this time and again. I for one hate the MP that is here. During the election while there were 5 choices to put my X against only 1 has the chance to beat them. Low and behold this one person is a Labour candidate. So I put my X next to Labour. But at no point am I ever going to follow in line cheering behind the mass self harm this country is going to perform with brexit.

    Nearly everyone I know who voted labour did so because of FPTP when they hate brexit. If we had a PR system my vote would have gone for Lib Dems or Greens because then it would not have been wasted on some feel good protest but still actually mean something. Now why don't you get off your high horse and join reality. Tactical voting is the only way to vote in the UK because of the undemocratic pile of shit known as FPTP.

    So no not 85% support Brexit. It's 85% understand that you have two choices and chose the one that was least reprehensable for them.
    I voted Lib-Dem in 2010 and somehow it turned into a Tory vote. It makes it very hard to trust them again.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I voted Lib-Dem in 2010 and somehow it turned into a Tory vote. It makes it very hard to trust them again.
    There does seem to be a recurring theme with issues of trust around pro-europeans. Ever wondered why? I think if I was in your minority position a one way ferry trip to Ireland would fix the problem. You could still live in the Great British Isles and under the yoke of your beloved Brussels and be a good European with all the supposed benefits that brings.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by tollshot View Post
    Is it all Europeans you distrust of just those that reside in EU member states?
    There are hundreds of millions of decent europeans, a majority I wager, denied democracy by an almost evangelical group of "we know best" politicians anointed North Koreanesque style in Brussels. If only their citizens were allowed an in/out vote like the British. It's those extremist illegitimate EU projecteers and their democratically illiterate supporters I and the majority of the UK distrust.

    The only other brextremist voice in this thread has design on living in France when post-brexit Britain goes tits-up.
    Please, I am a moderate, but since you ask

    Got an exit strategy in place yet?
    Haven't you heard? Brexit means Brexit.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    There are hundreds of millions of decent europeans, a majority I wager, denied democracy by an almost evangelical group of "we know best" politicians anointed North Koreanesque style in Brussels. If only their citizens were allowed an in/out vote like the British. It's those extremist illegitimate EU projecteers and their democratically illiterate supporters I and the majority of the UK distrust.



    Please, I am a moderate, but since you ask



    Haven't you heard? Brexit means Brexit.
    Holy crap now I don't just think you read the mail and Express this kind of rhetoric makes me believe you fucking write for them with the outright insanity in one post. Brussels = N.Korea? Uhhh Brussels with a full democratic PR system of parliament is the same as a full dictatorship? Don't make me laugh.

    If you're a moderate then Margaret Thatcher was a far left Stalinist.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    There does seem to be a recurring theme with issues of trust around pro-europeans. Ever wondered why? I think if I was in your minority position
    You sure you're still in the majority?

    An increasing number of people believe voting to leave the European Union was a bad idea, according to a new poll.

    It shows the highest proportion of people regretting the result since the referendum in June 2016, with 47 per cent of respondents saying it was wrong for the UK to vote Leave compared with 42 per cent who believe it was the right decision.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8000156.html

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    that's why no-one understands brexiteer logic, we're playing 4D chess while you are playing a game designed for 3-12 year olds.
    Wait a minute... is this account satire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    1. Scientific collaboration diminished - The fear with Brexit is that scientific collaboration would be weakened. But as I highlighted above scientists don't take hard line stance or let politics divide their pursuit of knowledge by sharing information with their scientific peers.

    2. Loss of easier access for work - This is not true given what we know based on lax EU work policies ( Turks overstay their work period in Germany for example).

    3. Loss of access for students to study abroad - Again this isn't a loss when there are scholarships offered every semester to students from non EU nations.

    So lets go to the economic reasons....currency?

    So what incentive is there to stay? To be part of EU that wants to become more than just an economic body but a governing body? And to become a legitimate governing body an EU army must be formed. Who is going to pay? Who is going to provide the troops and logistics?

    The EU will be stronger when it returns to an economic body and not a pseudo "superpower".

    If the EU can not sort out its economic problems with the PIGS than it has not business trying to play off as a "superpower" and throwing its weight around arrogantly.
    1. Scientist collaboration is never diminished, as scientific discourse either happens on a personal basis (hi internet) or through scientific journals. Actual collaboration, as in experimental science where physical presence is important, happens on the continent. CERN being the most prominent example on why UK scientists should really like to have free access to the continent to do their work here. One big advantage the UK has are the scientific publishers, like Oxford, Wiley, Taylor and Francis that are UK based. But continental publishers are consolidating like mad, and Springer Nature, Elsevier, Wolterskluwer are already easily on par with the ones based just in the UK. And they are just getting started with their expansions.

    2. Loss of easier access to work? That's a bit of an understatement. Right now, a UK citizen has to do one thing to be able to work in Germany. He has to show up for work. That's it. The Turkish dude? He's got to apply for a residence permit. Then for a work permit. And failing that, he's already committing illegal action. Something a regular UK citizen is really not known for. Breaking the rules and just ignoring law and order. But if you want to believe that suddenly 1.5 million British citizens on the continent will just go criminal, I guess you're right.

    3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme That's Erasmus, or Erasmus+ as it's known today. It grants you free access and supports you financially if you want to study abroad. Even more, it ensures that the semester you spend abroad is given credit for at your home university and absolutely counts towards your Bachelor/Masters degree.

    Try that in the US. Or Japan. Try going to a college in Massachusetts and then go to a German uni telling them you'd like credit for the semester you did in the US. Chances are you'll have to fight and apply and convince for that semester to count for anything.

    Economic reasons? Currency. Customs. Customs is actually a big thing. Just recently talked to a business partner in the UK about this. Sure, they'll sound optimistic on the camera for BBC, but when you speak to them 1:1, they really do not like the idea of us having to pay customs for anything here. And when I tell them they might lose us as a customer, because we really do not fancy paying customs, they'll get this sad twang in their voice. It's one thing to go "Bah, fuck the continent, who needs them." But it's another when a customer that easily brings you 6 digits per year that they might take their business somewhere else based on the cold hard fact that money rules the world, they realize just how much a Brexit could cost them.

    So yes, fucking economic reasons. Politicians have the luxury of pushing billions of Euros here and there and talk all big and mighty about it. But at the end of the day it's the simple salesman in his lonely office that has to scramble for every customer that's going to say "Well, fuck..." everytime he hears "Yeah, you're all nice and such.. but if we buy this from the Netherlands, we'll save X on customs and they're just as good."

    Meanwhile... the reverse situation, and I know, this is unfair... but here's a fun irony hidden in all of this. The UK absolutely banks on the German car industry to pressure Merkel into a softer stance. It's almost like they hedged all their bets on it. So far, the entire car and metal industry in Germany hasn't piped up a bit about Brexit. They've been suspiciously quiet. The rumour mill in the media quietly speculates that they don't have a big interest in doing this favour for the UK. There could be many reasons for that: 1. They think the UK will eventually cave and call it off, 2. They don't want to deal with the image loss of "defending the UK" when the general population is rather strongly against the Brexit to begin with and clearly puts the blame, all of it, in the lap of the UK, 3. What's the English customer going to do? Buy English cars? Which ones? There's not a brand left in England that is worth taking serious. The ones that are, are owned by German auto companies!

    So, yes. There are a shitton of economic reasons not to do this. But they are ignored. Because once more a politician babbled on about billions and millions of Euros, shifting them around and making wild promises. And once more the simple voter got deceived into thinking "Yes, this time they mean it. THIS TIME I will actually get more money in my pocket when all's said and done."

    Best case scenario? Of all the money the UK thinks it's saving (hint: it isn't any), if all of it were true and if all imagined numbers that Johnsson invented were true, the average citizen of the UK might have an extra 50 quid in his pocket. Per year. Totally worth having to pay that extra 10% surcharge on automobiles.

    The incentive to stay? Simple. First off, you're not risking your economy. Always a plus. Second, if you do risk your economy, you have a body with 25 other countries that would all work together to save your ass. Third, when the US think they are 10 times bigger than you and that translates into 10 times more profit for them and 10 times worse deals for you, the EU can even out the equation. Suddenly the US isn't 10 times bigger. Suddenly the EU market is vital for US companies. Suddenly the EU (and thus the UK) has fucking leverage to manhandle the US into a position where two equals actually hammer out something resembling an actual compromise for both sides. Instead of one side throwing away peanuts to get at the flesh of the UK market. Suddenly Russia takes you seriosuly when you go "Meh, we might not change your mind, but we can hurt you."

    Who's going to pay for the EU army? Who's paying for the British Armed Forces now? What do you think who's going to pay for the EU army. The Brasilian Government? The average taxpayer in the EU won't pay more for an EU army, as the logical step is to consolidate existing budgets. The British armed forces will stay the British armed forces. And they'll get paid by the British people. But they won't have to pay for logistics, because the Dutch have excellent ships doing the heavy load hauling while the Germans have excellent air lift capabilities. And so on and so forth. If the EU army becomes a thing, you'll notice how suddenly having a bigger army means you pay less. Or in other words, since tax cuts are a fantasy... every pound you pay, feeds more "army" than before.

    The EU has never been stronger than it is now. You can witness that when Russia is hurting big time from our sanctions and Iran starts to try and use us against the US. Make no mistake, he's only doing that because the EU initially rejected the US stance and Iran thinks the EU can be easily manipulated. But here's the thing, Iran wouldn't give much of a fuck what Austria thinks about Iran. Now it does, albeit Austria's part in the EU is what concerns him. That's a net increase in influence for Austria. Believe it or not.

    The UK leaving would diminish EU's position somewhat. But not enough to warrant throwing the idea away. And now that you've poked the bear, the EU is actually looking into doing all the shiny things the UK always blocked. I really hope you are sure about your decision to leave. Because if you ever want to reapply, it won't be the EU that you know today.

    Throwing its way around arrogantly is the whole point of the EU. We're sick and tired of Russia and the US thinking Europe is their sandbox. It's not. We're our own sandbox. And it's time everyone else learned that.
    Last edited by Slant; 2017-10-20 at 01:16 AM.
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  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    < SNIP>
    And there you have this weeks pro eu fanatics sermon on the mmoc mount.

    Meanwhile back in the real world with talk of a German led European army and its tanks prepared to rumble through the streets of Barcelona to quell the uprising, a Nazi party re-installed as kingmakers in Austria, the British quietly walk away from Europe to take stock with an eery sense of deja vu and a feeling that we have all been here before.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

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