View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #6021
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Oh dear, someone's a little grumpy at today's news. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/sta...34183068192768
    Quote Originally Posted by farage
    This Brexit strategy is a sell-out to the global corporates, as it was during Maastricht. The Tory Eurosceptics are a waste of space.
    Is he pretending that he was never a fucking corporate banker and only hates EU because of workers rights? I guess people will fall for it either way.

  2. #6022
    So basically the plan is close enough to free movement and a customs union that hardline Brexiteers could decide to sink the government, and different enough the EU might just reject it anyway.

    My guess is, if the government survives, it will get whittled down to EEA membership. We've technically Brexited and put ourselves in an objectively worse position from nearly all perspectives.

    If the government collapses and we have another General Election there's absolutely zero chance of a new government forming and figuring out what the hell a Brexit is. Can we get extensions for our extension? Indefinitely?

  3. #6023
    So it seems we have few options coming up.

    A) EU rejects. Brexiteers and May (Plus Sun, Mail, Express) Scream about how the EU is being unfair at not breaking their own rules for us trying to sway public opinion towards a harder brexit. Most politicians instead for EEA.
    B) EU Accepts and Brexiteers revolt. Government collapses. Another General election in which no party gets overall control, opposition parties bring up May's "Strong and Stable" at every turn. Conservatives may take a hit. Labour if they wish to be in government are FORCED to work with SNP/Lib Dems.
    C) EU Accepts. Brexiteers do not revolt. Ressurgance of UKIP is likely with strong Tory Brexit voters jumping ship to them.

  4. #6024
    How long have they been working on this consensus? And at the end of all that it's basically gone from "have our cake and eat it too" to "have X amount of our cake and eat Y amount of it - X and Y to be determined later subject to EU approval".

    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    "Brexiteers in cabinet...don't have a principle between them"

    What, you mean the sort of principles that can have someone campaigning for Brexit, before fucking off and leaving other people to sort it out when you won? Principles that leave you complaining on the sidelines about anything that gets done, while doing fuck all to provide any constructive assistance?
    Or like, running a campaign on "350 million pounds a week into the NHS" and then disowning that pledge the day after the vote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tartlance View Post
    Didn't vote for Brexit but no, you can't just void a democratic referendum arbitarily on the basis that people weren't informed or were lied to. That is every election.
    You can void any referendum at any time for any reason. They are non-binding in the UK.

    UK politicians simply don't want to wear the PR consequences. Although really, given it was 52-48, they're pissing almost as many people off by sticking to it, even before you adjust for the last couple of years of souring public opinion on the outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  5. #6025
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I dunno, but maybe just, maybe the EU is more than just Germany.
    Yes, so please tell me, why is Greece interested in giving the UK an easy out? What's in it for them?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Oh dear, someone's a little grumpy at today's news. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/sta...34183068192768
    Man, that dude has seriously got one of the most punchable faces on the planet.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  6. #6026
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So basically the plan is close enough to free movement and a customs union that hardline Brexiteers could decide to sink the government, and different enough the EU might just reject it anyway.

    My guess is, if the government survives, it will get whittled down to EEA membership. We've technically Brexited and put ourselves in an objectively worse position from nearly all perspectives.

    If the government collapses and we have another General Election there's absolutely zero chance of a new government forming and figuring out what the hell a Brexit is. Can we get extensions for our extension? Indefinitely?
    That's what was known since Day 1. Brexit is one of those things where at the end of it nobody knows how it began, nobody is happy and everybody asks "was it worth it". On a personal level, I feel sorry for Madame May not as a politician but as a human being. She has bigger balls than me, I couldn't deal with this garbage.
    Remember kiddies, hope was the last evil in Pandora's box.

  7. #6027
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yes, so please tell me, why is Greece interested in giving the UK an easy out? What's in it for them?
    We could look at Ireland who would in the event of no deal suffer a similar economic hit as the UK and potentially see a large part of their farming industry decimated.

    But let's go with Greece. Why would Greece be interested in not boiling our bunny or as you call it giving us an easy out?

    Off the top my head. First of all in recognition of the fact that Greece has benefited from UK money by virtue of the largest beneficiary from EU contributions and that by giving us the easy out (that you appear to be so against) they minimise the risk of these benefits being reduced.

    Secondly an easy out would cause the least disruption to UK-Greece trade.

    Thirdly a large part the Greek economy is based on tourism and it is a popular destination for UK tourists not giving the UK an easy out would likely sour sentiment towards Greece within the UK and may result in UK holiday makers seeking alternative destinations.

  8. #6028
    I mean No Brexit or a BINO are a dream for Farage, it means he will be politically relevant again. He probably wanted to lose the referendum so he could keep making money by campaigning.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  9. #6029
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean No Brexit or a BINO are a dream for Farage, it means he will be politically relevant again. He probably wanted to lose the referendum so he could keep making money by campaigning.
    Well he does need to top up that EU pension (that he has no intention of giving up).

  10. #6030
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Triks View Post
    That's what was known since Day 1. Brexit is one of those things where at the end of it nobody knows how it began, nobody is happy and everybody asks "was it worth it". On a personal level, I feel sorry for Madame May not as a politician but as a human being. She has bigger balls than me, I couldn't deal with this garbage.
    I sometimes feel the same looking at the shower of bastards she has to deal with over Europe, but you have to remember the nazi shit she pulled during her time at the Home Office. She deserves everything she gets frankly.

  11. #6031
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    We could look at Ireland who would in the event of no deal suffer a similar economic hit as the UK and potentially see a large part of their farming industry decimated.

    But let's go with Greece. Why would Greece be interested in not boiling our bunny or as you call it giving us an easy out?

    Off the top my head. First of all in recognition of the fact that Greece has benefited from UK money by virtue of the largest beneficiary from EU contributions and that by giving us the easy out (that you appear to be so against) they minimise the risk of these benefits being reduced.

    Secondly an easy out would cause the least disruption to UK-Greece trade.

    Thirdly a large part the Greek economy is based on tourism and it is a popular destination for UK tourists not giving the UK an easy out would likely sour sentiment towards Greece within the UK and may result in UK holiday makers seeking alternative destinations.
    The EU has been showing a united front for two years. In that time the UK has repeatedly walked back from its initial stance and softened or abandoned its red lines. What does that tell the negotiators on the EU side? That the UK are so terrified of a no-deal Brexit (regardless of what they say in public) that they are willing to do anything to avoid it. The UK are negotiating from a position of weakness, and both sides know it.

    So what would happen if the EU reject the lastest offer, because it still isn't quite soft enough? Simple, the UK would make it softer. And because they would have warmed up public opinion by moving so far in that direction already, the extra couple of steps would be accepted.

    May and the Tories have basically spent two years cooking the Brexit lobster, slowly turning up the heat so that the Brexit supporters never realised that Brexit was turning to mush. And the Brexit cheer-leaders were too stupid to realise what was happening (or too aware that the no-deal alternative was no alternative at all).

    I would say this is getting close to check-mate in favour of the Remain camp. Because pretty soon the Brexit camp will be coming out in support of a public vote on the deal. Because they (and the Remainers) realise that once the Brexit gets soft enough, it is all downsides compared to actually staying in. So we'll get the hilarious sight of both sides supporting another referendum, and both sides campaigning to reject the deal!
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  12. #6032
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    The EU has been showing a united front for two years. In that time the UK has repeatedly walked back from its initial stance and softened or abandoned its red lines. What does that tell the negotiators on the EU side? That the UK are so terrified of a no-deal Brexit (regardless of what they say in public) that they are willing to do anything to avoid it. The UK are negotiating from a position of weakness, and both sides know it.

    So what would happen if the EU reject the lastest offer, because it still isn't quite soft enough? Simple, the UK would make it softer. And because they would have warmed up public opinion by moving so far in that direction already, the extra couple of steps would be accepted.

    May and the Tories have basically spent two years cooking the Brexit lobster, slowly turning up the heat so that the Brexit supporters never realised that Brexit was turning to mush. And the Brexit cheer-leaders were too stupid to realise what was happening (or too aware that the no-deal alternative was no alternative at all).

    I would say this is getting close to check-mate in favour of the Remain camp. Because pretty soon the Brexit camp will be coming out in support of a public vote on the deal. Because they (and the Remainers) realise that once the Brexit gets soft enough, it is all downsides compared to actually staying in. So we'll get the hilarious sight of both sides supporting another referendum, and both sides campaigning to reject the deal!
    Did you mean to reply to someone else?

  13. #6033
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    We could look at Ireland who would in the event of no deal suffer a similar economic hit as the UK and potentially see a large part of their farming industry decimated.

    But let's go with Greece. Why would Greece be interested in not boiling our bunny or as you call it giving us an easy out?

    Off the top my head. First of all in recognition of the fact that Greece has benefited from UK money by virtue of the largest beneficiary from EU contributions and that by giving us the easy out (that you appear to be so against) they minimise the risk of these benefits being reduced.

    Secondly an easy out would cause the least disruption to UK-Greece trade.

    Thirdly a large part the Greek economy is based on tourism and it is a popular destination for UK tourists not giving the UK an easy out would likely sour sentiment towards Greece within the UK and may result in UK holiday makers seeking alternative destinations.
    Ok, so the first one really means: "Because we've been nice once"
    The second one is "Because we can sell them more shit and loan them more money for our profit"
    And the third one is Tourism... really? What alternatives do you have? The two favourite spots for Brits to get pissed are Mallorca and Greece. You have no other place you can embarass yourself without your coworker coming to work next day and going "So, Dave... about that donkey you violated yesterday evening..."

    I still don't see the incentive for Greece. What are you offering.

    See, I'm not asking you personally. I'm asking the UK. Because what they want is not only a cake to have and to eat, no they want fucking whipped cream and a cherry on top as well. And what are they offering in return? That they're nice chaps and will continue to do what they've always done in the first place.

    That's why this May fantasy from yesterday is going to get rejected so hard it'll hurt watching it.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  14. #6034
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    We could look at Ireland who would in the event of no deal suffer a similar economic hit as the UK and potentially see a large part of their farming industry decimated.

    But let's go with Greece. Why would Greece be interested in not boiling our bunny or as you call it giving us an easy out?

    Off the top my head. First of all in recognition of the fact that Greece has benefited from UK money by virtue of the largest beneficiary from EU contributions and that by giving us the easy out (that you appear to be so against) they minimise the risk of these benefits being reduced.

    Secondly an easy out would cause the least disruption to UK-Greece trade.

    Thirdly a large part the Greek economy is based on tourism and it is a popular destination for UK tourists not giving the UK an easy out would likely sour sentiment towards Greece within the UK and may result in UK holiday makers seeking alternative destinations.
    Greece would also have to look at the costs associated with giving an easy out here, mostly through the lens of political economy.
    Weakening freedom of movement makes Greece a less popular place for vacations, especially compared to other commonwealth nations. If it is more of a hassle to vacation in Greece, UK holiday makers will likely seek alternative destinations anyway. Let's be real here, the souring effect you talk of will be quite low in either event. Those who dislike the EU in general will still dislike it. They have a history of blaming the EU for ills that do not even stem from it. Expecting them to properly attribute Greece's goodwill to it is...questionable, to say the least.

    As for EU contributions, it is actually the other way around that is riskier. The UK quite definitely wants out of making those contributions, so most deals the UK would accept will see Greece with the same kind of reduction that no deal would entail. However, Greece benefits from the strong contributors being in the EU. Giving the UK a super easy out, where they even keep a lot of the benefits without the downsides, could very well lead to more strong contributors considering that. Or to leverage an insert-country-xit for diminishing contribution and redistribution schemes.

  15. #6035
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    We could look at Ireland who would in the event of no deal suffer a similar economic hit as the UK and potentially see a large part of their farming industry decimated.

    But let's go with Greece. Why would Greece be interested in not boiling our bunny or as you call it giving us an easy out?

    Off the top my head. First of all in recognition of the fact that Greece has benefited from UK money by virtue of the largest beneficiary from EU contributions and that by giving us the easy out (that you appear to be so against) they minimise the risk of these benefits being reduced.

    Secondly an easy out would cause the least disruption to UK-Greece trade.

    Thirdly a large part the Greek economy is based on tourism and it is a popular destination for UK tourists not giving the UK an easy out would likely sour sentiment towards Greece within the UK and may result in UK holiday makers seeking alternative destinations.
    The only thing Greece in particularly cares is being a good boy so they can still get money.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  16. #6036
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so the first one really means: "Because we've been nice once"
    The second one is "Because we can sell them more shit and loan them more money for our profit"
    And the third one is Tourism... really? What alternatives do you have? The two favourite spots for Brits to get pissed are Mallorca and Greece. You have no other place you can embarass yourself without your coworker coming to work next day and going "So, Dave... about that donkey you violated yesterday evening..."

    I still don't see the incentive for Greece. What are you offering.

    See, I'm not asking you personally. I'm asking the UK. Because what they want is not only a cake to have and to eat, no they want fucking whipped cream and a cherry on top as well. And what are they offering in return? That they're nice chaps and will continue to do what they've always done in the first place.

    That's why this May fantasy from yesterday is going to get rejected so hard it'll hurt watching it.
    We've been nice more than once but whatever. I've given you three reasons why is would not be in Greece's interests to give us what you call an easy out but what most rational people would call acting in a mutually beneficial way.

    Seriously grow up, it's really boring watching these tantrums.

  17. #6037
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The only thing Greece in particularly cares is being a good boy so they can still get money.
    It'll pass, mate. It'll pass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    We've been nice more than once but whatever. I've given you three reasons why is would not be in Greece's interests to give us what you call an easy out but what most rational people would call acting in a mutually beneficial way.

    Seriously grow up, it's really boring watching these tantrums.
    It's not a tantrum, really. I'm just wondering what the heck the UK is thinking. They keep acting like the're doing the EU favours. They're not. They can rephrase the same old things and invent new terminology, but any attack on the four pillars will get rejected. It's not even up for debate. The EU has said so time and again.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  18. #6038
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The only thing Greece in particularly cares is being a good boy so they can still get money.
    Fair enough, which is the point I was making - it is in no-one's interests (other than Slant's it would appear) to act in manner that would be economically damaging. The softer the Brexit the less economic damage everyone suffers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not a tantrum, really. I'm just wondering what the heck the UK is thinking. They keep acting like the're doing the EU favours. They're not. They can rephrase the same old things and invent new terminology, but any attack on the four pillars will get rejected. It's not even up for debate. The EU has said so time and again.
    It really is. Are we? That is news to me, perhaps it is your perception that is the problem?

    We'll have to wait and see what happens.

  19. #6039
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Did you mean to reply to someone else?
    No, you were explaining why you thought some of the EU countries would break ranks to offer the UK a deal. I started off explaining why I didn't think that would be the case, then went on to some more general ponderings about the situation.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  20. #6040
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Fair enough, which is the point I was making - it is in no-one's interests (other than Slant's it would appear) to act in manner that would be economically damaging. The softer the Brexit the less economic damage everyone suffers.
    If by soft you mean the Norway model, okay. But May didn't suggest the Norway model now, did she?
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

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