View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #6901
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think May's word was that she demanded an answer from the EU on her White Paper? You know like with every other case when they take months to give the EU anything to work with and then demand the EU responds within the week.
    Well, luckily the EU can actually deliver, as seen today. Right on time, as promised. I like having reliable people conduct our business. Makes a much better impression.
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  2. #6902
    Deleted
    I'd like to see this go down to the wire frankly. During my lifetime I've repeatedly seen liberals step in and attempt to correct the mess that conservatives have created.

    This time I want to see the whole fucking country burn. Perhaps not even metaphorically if we get another riot. I don't want anybody to say they were cheated out of Brexit. I want the consequences of their stupidity to haunt them endlessly. So it doesn't happen again.

    No second referendum. No soft Brexit. No deals with other nations. No compromises. I want this to be a disaster. So there is no argument.

  3. #6903
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    It is just as valid an option as the now illegal EU proposals to annex NI from the UK. The opposite of that is the UK proposes to annex a bit of the EU. Same difference but there's the conundrum.

    As I have been saying for years now, no deal is the only option and let us hope they can solve it, despite threatening and aggressive behaviour from EU members that will in the end provoke a UK response, by just talking around the table.

    That is the best the soppy remainers can now hope for, there was never any chance of a "soft brexit", whatever that was. Get used to it.
    You personally are coming off as very aggressive, the EU is not, and all the UK is coming off as at the moment is being unrealistic and in shambles.

    And saying no deal is "the best" pro-Europeans in the UK can hope for implies there'd be something worse, there isn't. They could have had 1) continued EU membership, they could have had 2) continued Single Market membership, they could have had 3) Customs Union membership, or they could have had 4) some bureaucratic nightmare fantasy cooked up by a Prime Minister desperately trying to find common ground within her party where there is none, or they could have had 5) a Free Trade agreement or they could have 6) no deal, in order of best to worst from their point-of-view. No Brexit would be option 1. Soft Brexit would be option 2 or 3. Hard Brexit with a deal would be option 4 or 5. Hard Brexit with no deal would be option 6. Seems like you should know this given that UK society has been obsessed and paralyzed by Brexit for the last two years, while it barely registers for the rest of European society.

    Personally I view a no deal Brexit as a tragedy, but unfortunately it is probobly necessary for people to come to terms with the fact that the grass is not greener on the other side. All options are worse than option 1, but with option 2 through 4 the Brexiteers will forever be able to claim that had their utopia of a no-deal Brexit been allowed to happen the country would've flourished. Better that the people of the UK see for themselves so there can be no speculation. Then, when Labour wins the next election and rejoins the Customs Union, you'll be one step closer on your walk of shame back to us. Then, as the Corbynista fail as miserably as the Brexiteers in delivering on the economy a progressive centrist liberal third option can arise to bring you back into the Single Market and all shall be good. Then you can remain there - in the EU in all but name but without any democratic representation - for a couple of decades to think about what you've done before people start demanding democratic representation, meaning membership of the European Union by year 2050. See you then.
    Last edited by Zarc; 2018-07-20 at 11:52 PM.

  4. #6904
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Actually 4 was made illegal in one of the recent brexiteer amendments passed through parliament, however it would still be legal for Ireland to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom. That would solve the border issue.
    There are more chances of Ireland becoming a Canadian province than rejoining the UK, so good luck with that.

  5. #6905
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Silly Pann.

    It's not as if the UK / Ireland border and associated troubles predate the EU itself. Oh... wait.
    The solution to the Troubles, the Good Friday Agreement, refers to the UK and the Republic of Ireland as "partners in the European Union." It is the United Kingdom that seeks to break that partnership so it is on the United Kingdom to find a new workable solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Fair enough. There's no argument that Brexit has created the problem however the problem is not something that that UK can solve on its own. In an ideal world, yes, you are correct the party that caused the problem should be the one that rectifies it however we do not live in an ideal world and Brexit has created issues with Ireland that are exceedingly difficult to solve and if we are to move forward then it will take agreement with the EU.
    As I mentioned above, it is the UK who is breaking the partnership with Eire so it is up to the UK to find a solution. The EU offers a few solutions that maintain the status quo - EU membership, EEA membership and CU membership. The UK is free to choose one of those for itself as a whole or make constitutional changes to allow Northern Ireland to benefit from one of those options.

    I see where you're coming from but I don't think the argument holds water when it comes to public opinion with regard to what was expected from Brexit. Rightly or wrongly people will not accept the UK not completely leaving the EU. I don't think it takes much imagination to see how the likes of JRM would be able use either of these options to push his vassal state agenda and whip up even more anti-EU sentiment.
    No-one cares about JRM and his cronies wanting to get rich on trade deals. Half the headaches of Brexit disappear if we go into a customs union and people will be mollified knowing that we're no longer sending "vast sums" to the EU and can set our own immigration policies with regard to our European neighbours.

    There certainly is some truth to what you say about the reasons behind calling the referendum but I think that somewhat oversimplifies the matter.
    The reasons for calling a referendum may me more complicated but a lot of the problems we're facing - from the half-arsed referendum itself, the rushing to sign Article 50, the weak and wobbly government and Theresa May's paradoxical red lines attempting to mollify the DUP and Conservative Moggites - are due to the Tories doing whatever they can to stay in power.

    Part of the GFA was that we would respect the wishes of NI as to whether or not they remained part of the union if we were to take the fourth option (things would be much simpler) we would, IMO, be sailing very close to the wind in this regard. And there is also the issue that NI remaining in the EU, etc is seen by many as threat to British sovereignty. As far as I can see this is complete political non-starter.
    These are matters for the people of Northern Ireland to decide, but not only have the government ignored what they are saying they passed a law declaring that their opinions can get fucked. Personally I have no problem with British sovereignty being eroded over conquered territories and remnants of the empire, let's not forget that the aegis of the British government covers 14 overseas territories, 3 crown dependencies and unitary state of four nations, two of which have national assemblies and a third its own parliament.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But what is the point to cultivate a desire to halt Brexit among the people if they don't get a chance to express it?
    Because modern UK politics is modelled on the British sense of humour with its fine blending of comedy and tragedy.

  6. #6906
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    It is just as valid an option as the now illegal EU proposals to annex NI from the UK. The opposite of that is the UK proposes to annex a bit of the EU. Same difference but there's the conundrum.

    As I have been saying for years now, no deal is the only option and let us hope they can solve it, despite threatening and aggressive behaviour from EU members that will in the end provoke a UK response, by just talking around the table.

    That is the best the soppy remainers can now hope for, there was never any chance of a "soft brexit", whatever that was. Get used to it.
    It's funny. I've had a bit of time on my hand. And look what I found:

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...6U/TXT&from=EN

    Says on page 7:

    Article 13
    The EEC Treaty shall be supplemented by the following
    provisions:
    'Article 8a
    The Community shall adopt measures with the aim of
    progressively establishing the internal market over a
    period expiring on 31 December 1992, in accordance
    with the provisions of this Article and of Articles 8b,
    8c, 28, 57 (2), 59, 70 (1), 84, 99, 100a and 100b and
    without prejudice to the other provisions of this
    Treaty.
    The internal market shall comprise an area without
    internal frontiers in which the free movement of goods,
    persons, services and capital is ensured in accordance
    with the provisions of this Treaty.
    That bold bit there? That's why these four freedoms are inseparable. No shortcuts. No changing the treaties just to accomodate you.

    You know who signed that?

    HER MAJESTY THEQUEEN OF THEUNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN
    IRELAND
    So, now we've established that not only is it legal for the EU to maintain that red line, it has also been signed and ratified by the UK. What you're doing now is asking the EU to break its own treaties. Since the EU can't allow that to happen, they propose other solutions. Those are unilaterally declared illegal by you. Ok, great. Now, the ball is actually in your court, however. Every solution the EU can present within its legal framework has so far been rejected by the UK.

    This isn't threats. This isn't being aggressive. Quite the opposite. The only ones being aggressive is the Brexit movement. The EU has always pointed out the red lines, has maintained them throughout the negotiations. That the UK cannot reconsile two opposing treaties is not the EU's fault. Nobody in the EU forced the UK to quit. Everybody in the EU tried to talk sense into them. It did not work. You made the bed. Now you lie in it.

    See, the funny thing is... from the beginning, you haven't supported a hard Brexit. You've supported the pussy version of it, where you get what you want to get and then ditch what you don't like. I remember you very well from a year ago, Dribs. Oh, how you told us the UK would dictate these negotiations. They didn't. How the UK would get all it wanted. They didn't. How the UK would force the EU to its knees. That never happened. How the EU would crumble and dissolve in a series of other countries quitting. The EU didn't and support for the EU in its member states is as high as it ever was, even rising.

    Every single one of your arrigant "predictions" failed, Dribs. You're now holding onto the last bastion of your conviction, that somehow you will at least get to see something crash and burn. And then you'll sit here and go "Well, I told you so..."

    First, you didn't. You told us an entirely different story that you adjusted again and again the less likely any sort of advantageous Brexit for the UK became. And even if you did... at what cost? When will you finally admit that your whole charade is just bollocks and you're really just a pathetic, insecure little Brexiteer that has no clue what's going to happen next and if your video games are going to be more expensive.

    I mean you never had much respect from me, but I'm sure you'll pretend you don't care. Well, your fellow British people seem to care. I speak to them on a daily basis. They're really not too happy about it. See, in the business world, these things actually matter and affect people. These tradespeople don't have the luxury of living at mom's and getting dinner served every evening for free. They actually have to deal with continental Europe. You've built up an entire service industry that seems to make about 80% of your GDP by now... servicing the EU. And you, Dribbelino, want to throw that away because at some point 2 years ago someone told you on this forum that you're quite deranged for posting your anti-EU drivel and so you decided to go with "Team Brexit". Not because you believe in it, but because you're part of the sheep group that just needs to belong to a side, doesn't matter just how stupid it it.

    And all the time, you never once quoted the treaties or any other actual legal text. Only going with your daily mail and other disreputable sources. Your posts are a joke and you do not seem to improve at all the further this goes on.

    I pity everyone who has to live in the same country as you do. People like you make it so much harder for everyone else. You are a liability on society. I just wanted to explain that to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It can't. That is the simple truth. And even if this was a possibility there is no guarantee that anything would have changed since the last referendum.

    I like your idea that the population should have all the information presented to them truthfully and accurately but how do you stop the likes of Farage or JRM? It's no good stating that if x happens it will result in y when good ol' Nige is sitting there, pint of Spitfire in hand, saying it is not true and everything will be wonderful.

    I suspect (although it is more hope) that a situation is being engineered where the public is slowly but subtlety being exposed the realities of what no deal will look like and as a result the desire to halt Brexit is beginning to grow.
    As I've said before, the door will be kept open for you guys. But the next time you want to enter the club, you'll have to close it behind you and go all the way through. We're done with British exceptionalism, I hope.
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-07-21 at 01:22 AM.
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  7. #6907
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's funny. I've had a bit of time on my hand. And look what I found:

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...6U/TXT&from=EN

    Says on page 7:



    That bold bit there? That's why these four freedoms are inseparable. No shortcuts. No changing the treaties just to accomodate you.

    You know who signed that?



    So, now we've established that not only is it legal for the EU to maintain that red line, it has also been signed and ratified by the UK. What you're doing now is asking the EU to break its own treaties. Since the EU can't allow that to happen, they propose other solutions. Those are unilaterally declared illegal by you. Ok, great. Now, the ball is actually in your court, however. Every solution the EU can present within its legal framework has so far been rejected by the UK.

    This isn't threats. This isn't being aggressive. Quite the opposite. The only ones being aggressive is the Brexit movement. The EU has always pointed out the red lines, has maintained them throughout the negotiations. That the UK cannot reconsile two opposing treaties is not the EU's fault. Nobody in the EU forced the UK to quit. Everybody in the EU tried to talk sense into them. It did not work. You made the bed. Now you lie in it.

    See, the funny thing is... from the beginning, you haven't supported a hard Brexit. You've supported the pussy version of it, where you get what you want to get and then ditch what you don't like. I remember you very well from a year ago, Dribs. Oh, how you told us the UK would dictate these negotiations. They didn't. How the UK would get all it wanted. They didn't. How the UK would force the EU to its knees. That never happened. How the EU would crumble and dissolve in a series of other countries quitting. The EU didn't and support for the EU in its member states is as high as it ever was, even rising.

    Every single one of your arrigant "predictions" failed, Dribs. You're now holding onto the last bastion of your conviction, that somehow you will at least get to see something crash and burn. And then you'll sit here and go "Well, I told you so..."

    First, you didn't. You told us an entirely different story that you adjusted again and again the less likely any sort of advantageous Brexit for the UK became. And even if you did... at what cost? When will you finally admit that your whole charade is just bollocks and you're really just a pathetic, insecure little Brexiteer that has no clue what's going to happen next and if your video games are going to be more expensive.

    I mean you never had much respect from me, but I'm sure you'll pretend you don't care. Well, your fellow British people seem to care. I speak to them on a daily basis. They're really not too happy about it. See, in the business world, these things actually matter and affect people. These tradespeople don't have the luxury of living at mom's and getting dinner served every evening for free. They actually have to deal with continental Europe. You've built up an entire service industry that seems to make about 80% of your GDP by now... servicing the EU. And you, Dribbelino, want to throw that away because at some point 2 years ago someone told you on this forum that you're quite deranged for posting your anti-EU drivel and so you decided to go with "Team Brexit". Not because you believe in it, but because you're part of the sheep group that just needs to belong to a side, doesn't matter just how stupid it it.

    And all the time, you never once quoted the treaties or any other actual legal text. Only going with your daily mail and other disreputable sources. Your posts are a joke and you do not seem to improve at all the further this goes on.

    I pity everyone who has to live in the same country as you do. People like you make it so much harder for everyone else. You are a liability on society. I just wanted to explain that to you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As I've said before, the door will be kept open for you guys. But the next time you want to enter the club, you'll have to close it behind you and go all the way through. We're done with British exceptionalism, I hope.
    Im quite sure poor Dribs is fuming, and breeding on some snarky reply qouting some pro-leave EU party or something rose tinted, blaming the EU on all woes... I bet they will do that with a hard EU ''HERE ITS THE BLOODY FAULT OF THE USSR OF EU!''
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

  8. #6908
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanworth View Post
    I want this to be a disaster. So there is no argument.
    You have to know what there will still be an argument.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  9. #6909
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    You have to know what there will still be an argument.
    Oh the UKipers will never give up but they will become increasingly marginalized.

    When something visibly doesn't work for long enough people do begin to accept it. For example, no one talks about "austerity" any more, they know it is a load of bullshit designed to make the poor pay for the mistakes of the rich.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    This isn't threats. This isn't being aggressive. Quite the opposite. The only ones being aggressive is the Brexit movement.
    The papers here are quite hysterical here about the EU response to Britain's demands. To me the EU seems to be just simply restating its constitution and boringly bureaucratic.

    If the EU politicians responded to their own populations in the same way our politicians do I suspect they'd have just kicked us out without another word.

  10. #6910
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    As I mentioned above, it is the UK who is breaking the partnership with Eire so it is up to the UK to find a solution. The EU offers a few solutions that maintain the status quo - EU membership, EEA membership and CU membership. The UK is free to choose one of those for itself as a whole or make constitutional changes to allow Northern Ireland to benefit from one of those options.
    The UK is trying to find a solution as is the EU this is the whole point of the negotiations. The EU has offered solutions that are not compatible with the referendum result they are therefore not acceptable solutions to the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    No-one cares about JRM and his cronies wanting to get rich on trade deals. Half the headaches of Brexit disappear if we go into a customs union and people will be mollified knowing that we're no longer sending "vast sums" to the EU and can set our own immigration policies with regard to our European neighbours.
    That is simply not true. If no-one cared about JRM he wouldn't be able to cause anywhere near as much trouble as he does.

    If remaining in the customs union is the answer to half of the Brexit headaches then why is no-one suggesting that we do so? Sure we have Labour and their Schrödinger's custom union which is the same as the customs union whilst at the same time not being like the customs union at all but like most Labour policies it lacks substance or detail. Tory politicians are, in the majority, pro-remain why are they not pushing for this?

    And just how does remaining in the customs union solve the Ireland border issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The reasons for calling a referendum may me more complicated but a lot of the problems we're facing - from the half-arsed referendum itself, the rushing to sign Article 50, the weak and wobbly government and Theresa May's paradoxical red lines attempting to mollify the DUP and Conservative Moggites - are due to the Tories doing whatever they can to stay in power.
    This is not accurate. The Tories are in power until 2022 due to the fixed term parliament act and seeing as absolutely no-one else wants to be holding the can when Brexit goes tits up there is no challenge to this power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    These are matters for the people of Northern Ireland to decide, but not only have the government ignored what they are saying they passed a law declaring that their opinions can get fucked. Personally I have no problem with British sovereignty being eroded over conquered territories and remnants of the empire, let's not forget that the aegis of the British government covers 14 overseas territories, 3 crown dependencies and unitary state of four nations, two of which have national assemblies and a third its own parliament.
    How have the government ignored what the people of NI are saying? They explicitly dropped their plans to move the border to the sea between the island of Ireland and mainland Britain at the behest of the people of NI. The fact that you don't like those people of Northern Ireland have to say does not make their concerns any less valid.

  11. #6911
    Quote Originally Posted by thanworth View Post
    The papers here are quite hysterical here about the EU response to Britain's demands. To me the EU seems to be just simply restating its constitution and boringly bureaucratic.

    If the EU politicians responded to their own populations in the same way our politicians do I suspect they'd have just kicked us out without another word.
    Between adults it is important that you can still talk to each other when this circus is over. Try as we might, the UK isn't going to shift position. They'll always be Europe, so it wouldn't help to treat them like trash. We know British papers can't be taken seriously, so nobody gives a toss what they write. In fact, it can be quite amusing when they don't slip into the insulting tone again, which they sometimes do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    How have the government ignored what the people of NI are saying? They explicitly dropped their plans to move the border to the sea between the island of Ireland and mainland Britain at the behest of the people of NI. The fact that you don't like those people of Northern Ireland have to say does not make their concerns any less valid.
    I know this isn't what you or he meant, but I'm still surprised that Scotland and NI can vote with huge majorities against Brexit and still be forced to suffer most from this stunt.

    Asking "how has the British Government ignored the people of NI" is kinda dangerous in that light. The English have always ignored Scotland, Wales and NI when it suited them. It's not a big secret that the UK is held together by force of will and suppression of dissent rather than a union of voluntary allies that want to form a nation. :P
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  12. #6912
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And just how does remaining in the customs union solve the Ireland border issue?
    It doesn't. It only solves the issue when it comes to freedom of goods (in a customs union there is a common tariff scheme so no need for duty checks) but it doesn't solve the issue of freedom of movement.
    Ultimately a UK that wants to control its borders will have to deal with the fact that any EU citizen can move to Ireland and then easily illegally move to NI and thus the UK if there is no border.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #6913
    Deleted
    A hard Brexit seems unavoidable now, which sucks for my own country since we will feel this economically.

    What a giant mess you British guys made of this. I know that the EU is playing it hard and some elements within the EU (*cough*the French*cough*) would love to see you suffer, but I think it's the internal divide that hurts you the most.

    Either go for it for the full 100% or cancel the Brexit. Stop trying to please everyone and be resolute for once!

  14. #6914
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    You personally are coming off as very aggressive, the EU is not, and all the UK is coming off as at the moment is being unrealistic and in shambles.

    And saying no deal is "the best" pro-Europeans in the UK can hope for implies there'd be something worse, there isn't. They could have had 1) continued EU membership, they could have had 2) continued Single Market membership, they could have had 3) Customs Union membership, or they could have had 4) some bureaucratic nightmare fantasy cooked up by a Prime Minister desperately trying to find common ground within her party where there is none, or they could have had 5) a Free Trade agreement or they could have 6) no deal, in order of best to worst from their point-of-view. No Brexit would be option 1. Soft Brexit would be option 2 or 3. Hard Brexit with a deal would be option 4 or 5. Hard Brexit with no deal would be option 6. Seems like you should know this given that UK society has been obsessed and paralyzed by Brexit for the last two years, while it barely registers for the rest of European society.

    Personally I view a no deal Brexit as a tragedy, but unfortunately it is probobly necessary for people to come to terms with the fact that the grass is not greener on the other side. All options are worse than option 1, but with option 2 through 4 the Brexiteers will forever be able to claim that had their utopia of a no-deal Brexit been allowed to happen the country would've flourished. Better that the people of the UK see for themselves so there can be no speculation. Then, when Labour wins the next election and rejoins the Customs Union, you'll be one step closer on your walk of shame back to us. Then, as the Corbynista fail as miserably as the Brexiteers in delivering on the economy a progressive centrist liberal third option can arise to bring you back into the Single Market and all shall be good. Then you can remain there - in the EU in all but name but without any democratic representation - for a couple of decades to think about what you've done before people start demanding democratic representation, meaning membership of the European Union by year 2050. See you then.
    I am not at all being aggressive, just responding to threats and attempts by the EU at UK intimidation. You mention 6 or so options that might have been on the table a couple of years ago but are not there any more. With just weeks to go the EU are out of time. We did tell them many times the clock was ticking, but they took no notice. The best and only deal pro EU remainers can hope to be had now is an amicable no deal. That is the new "soft" brexit and to say there could be nothing worse than that is to deny European history.

    You should have said if the EU still exists in 2050 and being from Sweden will play your part in chipping away at it in just a few weeks time when we see your election results. I thank you all there in advance for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's funny. I've had a bit of time on my hand. And look what I found:

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...6U/TXT&from=EN

    Says on page 7:



    That bold bit there? That's why these four freedoms are inseparable. No shortcuts. No changing the treaties just to accomodate you.

    You know who signed that?
    Laws change over time, that old old one precedes the new one that came into force last monday. Her Majestys government signed the new one too.


    So, now we've established that not only is it legal for the EU to maintain that red line, it has also been signed and ratified by the UK. What you're doing now is asking the EU to break its own treaties. Since the EU can't allow that to happen, they propose other solutions. Those are unilaterally declared illegal by you. Ok, great. Now, the ball is actually in your court, however. Every solution the EU can present within its legal framework has so far been rejected by the UK.

    This isn't threats. This isn't being aggressive. Quite the opposite. The only ones being aggressive is the Brexit movement. The EU has always pointed out the red lines, has maintained them throughout the negotiations. That the UK cannot reconsile two opposing treaties is not the EU's fault. Nobody in the EU forced the UK to quit. Everybody in the EU tried to talk sense into them. It did not work. You made the bed. Now you lie in it.

    See, the funny thing is... from the beginning, you haven't supported a hard Brexit. You've supported the pussy version of it, where you get what you want to get and then ditch what you don't like. I remember you very well from a year ago, Dribs. Oh, how you told us the UK would dictate these negotiations. They didn't. How the UK would get all it wanted. They didn't. How the UK would force the EU to its knees. That never happened. How the EU would crumble and dissolve in a series of other countries quitting. The EU didn't and support for the EU in its member states is as high as it ever was, even rising.

    Every single one of your arrigant "predictions" failed, Dribs. You're now holding onto the last bastion of your conviction, that somehow you will at least get to see something crash and burn. And then you'll sit here and go "Well, I told you so..."

    First, you didn't. You told us an entirely different story that you adjusted again and again the less likely any sort of advantageous Brexit for the UK became. And even if you did... at what cost? When will you finally admit that your whole charade is just bollocks and you're really just a pathetic, insecure little Brexiteer that has no clue what's going to happen next and if your video games are going to be more expensive.

    I mean you never had much respect from me, but I'm sure you'll pretend you don't care. Well, your fellow British people seem to care. I speak to them on a daily basis. They're really not too happy about it. See, in the business world, these things actually matter and affect people. These tradespeople don't have the luxury of living at mom's and getting dinner served every evening for free. They actually have to deal with continental Europe. You've built up an entire service industry that seems to make about 80% of your GDP by now... servicing the EU. And you, Dribbelino, want to throw that away because at some point 2 years ago someone told you on this forum that you're quite deranged for posting your anti-EU drivel and so you decided to go with "Team Brexit". Not because you believe in it, but because you're part of the sheep group that just needs to belong to a side, doesn't matter just how stupid it it.

    And all the time, you never once quoted the treaties or any other actual legal text. Only going with your daily mail and other disreputable sources. Your posts are a joke and you do not seem to improve at all the further this goes on.

    I pity everyone who has to live in the same country as you do. People like you make it so much harder for everyone else. You are a liability on society. I just wanted to explain that to you.
    We are not asking the EU to break anything or any of its treaties. In fact the serving of Article 50 is a quite lawful and correct method of a member state leaving the EU. The EU itself provides for no other way to go other than perhaps expulsion. We have correctly served article 50 and the ball is still firmly in the EU court.

    I am afraid you speaking on a daily basis to a few connected UK chums on the phone is not really representative of the mood within the UK. It has been quite noticable in our mainstream media, who mirror UK opinion rather than form it as some would say, how EU threats have been responded to. This unification and hardening of UK support for the now default soft no deal Brexit is obvious to all except perhaps our lame prime minister. She is getting there though.

    If only the EU position was consistent and not complicated by one or two ofthe EU27 hotheads going off in some bizarre Napoleonic way about blocking EU skies etc to the UK perhaps a deal could have been done. Not now, far to late.

    And as for Michel Barniers true thoughts, it is good of him to join us here on the forum:-

    Quote Originally Posted by thanworth View Post
    I'd like to see this go down to the wire frankly. During my lifetime I've repeatedly seen liberals step in and attempt to correct the mess that conservatives have created.

    This time I want to see the whole fucking country burn. Perhaps not even metaphorically if we get another riot. I don't want anybody to say they were cheated out of Brexit. I want the consequences of their stupidity to haunt them endlessly. So it doesn't happen again.

    No second referendum. No soft Brexit. No deals with other nations. No compromises. I want this to be a disaster. So there is no argument.
    Thank you for sharing that Michel, it is heartening to hear your real opinion. I would just like you to know that you are the true Brexiteer hero, with your Non non non a delight to our British ears. People are often going on about backstop this and backstop that, well just to let you know that you and I are in total agreement and very keen to see your wishes actioned. We Brexiteers are doing our very best for you, but should we fail you Michel, yes you are our ultimate backstop insurance which will ensure the new default soft no deal Brexit.

    Ignore the minority Michel, the majority thank you. Bisous XXXXX

  15. #6915
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The UK is trying to find a solution as is the EU this is the whole point of the negotiations. The EU has offered solutions that are not compatible with the referendum result they are therefore not acceptable solutions to the issue.
    The EEA and Customs Union are both compatible with the referendum as we can be part of those and still leave the EU. Moving the Irish border to the North sea is also compatible with the referendum if NI joins the EEA or CU. If NI stays in the EU technically it breaks the referendum as the UK as a whole won't leave, but it does acknowledge that NI voted strongly to remain.

    That is simply not true. If no-one cared about JRM he wouldn't be able to cause anywhere near as much trouble as he does.
    JRM's power comes from the fact the current government is weak and wobbly and a small backbench rebellion could easily topple it.

    If remaining in the customs union is the answer to half of the Brexit headaches then why is no-one suggesting that we do so? Sure we have Labour and their Schrödinger's custom union which is the same as the customs union whilst at the same time not being like the customs union at all but like most Labour policies it lacks substance or detail. Tory politicians are, in the majority, pro-remain why are they not pushing for this?
    The long answer involves a level of understanding about UK party politics and the way it functions in parliament that I'm not really willing to go in to, but the short answer is that Labour's policy is to stay in the CU and all but 4 Labour MPs (plus 12 Tory rebels) voted to stay in the CU if no deal is reached by the time we leave.

    And just how does remaining in the customs union solve the Ireland border issue?
    It removes the need for border checks at the EU/UK border so border on the island of Ireland can remain invisible as it is today.

    This is not accurate. The Tories are in power until 2022 due to the fixed term parliament act and seeing as absolutely no-one else wants to be holding the can when Brexit goes tits up there is no challenge to this power.
    Yet we still have Theresa May making impossible proposals to the EU to mollify the DUP and Mogg's hardliner faction, both of which could topple the government and lead to either a General Election or Tory leadership contest.

    How have the government ignored what the people of NI are saying? They explicitly dropped their plans to move the border to the sea between the island of Ireland and mainland Britain at the behest of the people of NI. The fact that you don't like those people of Northern Ireland have to say does not make their concerns any less valid.
    I shouldn't have to explain this but in UK politics, especially in NI, the party people vote for does not necessarily represent all of their views on every issue. The legislation to keep the border where it is was to mollify the DUP who are needed to keep the weak Conservative government in power. If May wanted to listen to the people of NI they should have a referendum to see what the future relationship between EU/NI and NI/UK should look like.

  16. #6916
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The UK is trying to find a solution as is the EU this is the whole point of the negotiations. The EU has offered solutions that are not compatible with the referendum result they are therefore not acceptable solutions to the issue.
    That, in a nutshell, is the issue here. UK solutions are so far not compatible with the pillars of the EU. EU proposal are not compatible with the referendum result.
    On the surface, that is the conundrum, and the UK tends to insist that it is, but really, this is apples and oranges.

    The four freedoms are closely defined, ratified principles known to everyone.
    The referendum result was a narrow, muddy declaration of intent for the vague concept of Brexit, which was not legally binding.

    Basing all of this on the stupid referendum was the worst decision made in this whole process, tbh.

  17. #6917
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    I am not at all being aggressive, just responding to threats and attempts by the EU at UK intimidation. You mention 6 or so options that might have been on the table a couple of years ago but are not there any more. With just weeks to go the EU are out of time. We did tell them many times the clock was ticking, but they took no notice. The best and only deal pro EU remainers can hope to be had now is an amicable no deal. That is the new "soft" brexit and to say there could be nothing worse than that is to deny European history.
    Up until the recent Chequers meeting, the "government" of the UK still hadn't agreed what their own negotiating position was. The "agreement" that came out of that discussion lasted a few days before the Brexit faction made a number of significant amendments that meant that effectively they STILL don't have a position. How exactly is it the fault of the EU, who have been consistent and clear from day 1, that the negotiations haven't gone anywhere?

    Don't bother answering. Because I'm well aware of the pointlessness of discussions with you. It does amuse me that the character you've created in this thread is such a perfect representation of the Brexit process itself. You've adopted rigid and impractical positions, held contradictory beliefs simultaneously, and pushed the blame onto every other party in the process rather than taking responsibility yourself. If your intent was to create a living embodiment of Brexit and its crass idiocy, then bravo. You've done remarkably well.

    Mind you, it really doesn't help the debate we are trying to have here. But I guess that just adds to the Brexit symbolism, doesn't it?
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  18. #6918
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Up until the recent Chequers meeting, the "government" of the UK still hadn't agreed what their own negotiating position was. The "agreement" that came out of that discussion lasted a few days before the Brexit faction made a number of significant amendments that meant that effectively they STILL don't have a position. How exactly is it the fault of the EU, who have been consistent and clear from day 1, that the negotiations haven't gone anywhere?

    Don't bother answering. Because I'm well aware of the pointlessness of discussions with you. It does amuse me that the character you've created in this thread is such a perfect representation of the Brexit process itself. You've adopted rigid and impractical positions, held contradictory beliefs simultaneously, and pushed the blame onto every other party in the process rather than taking responsibility yourself. If your intent was to create a living embodiment of Brexit and its crass idiocy, then bravo. You've done remarkably well.

    Mind you, it really doesn't help the debate we are trying to have here. But I guess that just adds to the Brexit symbolism, doesn't it?
    If only the British government was representative of the many hey? From the remain PM to the remain Chancellor to the remain cabinet. Times they are a changing though huehue, time to embrace that sweet no deal.

  19. #6919
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Laws change over time, that old old one precedes the new one that came into force last monday. Her Majestys government signed the new one too.

    We are not asking the EU to break anything or any of its treaties. In fact the serving of Article 50 is a quite lawful and correct method of a member state leaving the EU. The EU itself provides for no other way to go other than perhaps expulsion. We have correctly served article 50 and the ball is still firmly in the EU court.

    I am afraid you speaking on a daily basis to a few connected UK chums on the phone is not really representative of the mood within the UK. It has been quite noticable in our mainstream media, who mirror UK opinion rather than form it as some would say, how EU threats have been responded to. This unification and hardening of UK support for the now default soft no deal Brexit is obvious to all except perhaps our lame prime minister. She is getting there though.

    If only the EU position was consistent and not complicated by one or two ofthe EU27 hotheads going off in some bizarre Napoleonic way about blocking EU skies etc to the UK perhaps a deal could have been done. Not now, far to late.

    And as for Michel Barniers true thoughts, it is good of him to join us here on the forum:-
    Laws change over time. That one did not. It has been built into the EU treaties, and they supercede national law. Another decision the Queen of England signed off to. Your law may apply to the UK, and that's fine, since you're on your way out anyway. But as far as the rest of the EU is concerned, this isn't a matter of opinion. And it is a long, long time ago that British law superceded any other law. So, no.

    I am speaking to people who actually work for a living and have to deal with the shit you wank off to. It's not representative of the deplorables and low life scum in your country, no, but it is the part of your country that makes the money and sponsors your trash party, Dribs. They are the important people.

    The EU has never threatened. But I'm not surprised your coked up media spun it that way. See, when two people negotiate, they put offers on the table. And sometimes those offers get rejected. That's not a threat, that's a rejection. And when we tell you that you won't get a deal by being utter idiots, that's not a threat either, it's a well meant warning that if you continue this way, you will jeopardize what you are trying to achieve.

    The EU position has been the only thing that is consistent in these negotiations. I mean, given that the UK never had a position, I guess you could also say it has been the most inconsistent, but that's what you get when there's only one side trying to negotiate.

    Nobody is blocking any skies. Not EU member states and certainly not the UK. I don't know why you keep repeating these inane statements. As if you literally dribbling vomit into this topic over and over again is going to make that vomit shine like the truth.

    Nothing you said has come true. Not a single thing. You're the world's shittiest predictor. If I wanted to win the lottery, I'd have to make sure that you didn't predict those numbers, because that's how certain you seem to be on the wrong track.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Basing all of this on the stupid referendum was the worst decision made in this whole process, tbh.
    Even the British agree to that. Well, except the crazy ones like Dribs.
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  20. #6920
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The EEA and Customs Union are both compatible with the referendum as we can be part of those and still leave the EU. Moving the Irish border to the North sea is also compatible with the referendum if NI joins the EEA or CU. If NI stays in the EU technically it breaks the referendum as the UK as a whole won't leave, but it does acknowledge that NI voted strongly to remain.
    They aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    JRM's power comes from the fact the current government is weak and wobbly and a small backbench rebellion could easily topple it.
    Looks like we're in agreement that people do care about what JRM wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The long answer involves a level of understanding about UK party politics and the way it functions in parliament that I'm not really willing to go in to, but the short answer is that Labour's policy is to stay in the CU and all but 4 Labour MPs (plus 12 Tory rebels) voted to stay in the CU if no deal is reached by the time we leave.
    They voted to stay in A customs union not The customs union. This is an important distinction and as yet Labour have been unwilling to divulge what this customs union might entail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It removes the need for border checks at the EU/UK border so border on the island of Ireland can remain invisible as it is today.
    It doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Yet we still have Theresa May making impossible proposals to the EU to mollify the DUP and Mogg's hardliner faction, both of which could topple the government and lead to either a General Election or Tory leadership contest.
    The Tories will still be in power if there is a leadership contest and Labour are not going to push for a GE. And to be quite honest if Theresa May is doing all she can to stop JRM or one of his cohorts becoming PM I think that is worthy of a bit of praise rather than scorn.

    I get the impression that your issue is that you simply dislike the Tories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I shouldn't have to explain this but in UK politics, especially in NI, the party people vote for does not necessarily represent all of their views on every issue. The legislation to keep the border where it is was to mollify the DUP who are needed to keep the weak Conservative government in power. If May wanted to listen to the people of NI they should have a referendum to see what the future relationship between EU/NI and NI/UK should look like.
    What? Hang on a sec, you complained that the Tories were ignoring the people of NI and when I point out that this was not true you then complain about the reason why they listened to the people of NI?!?

    If the people of NI want a referendum they are free to ask, the thing is they haven't done so nor is there any indication that they plan on doing so. Therefore I am not sure why you would place the blame on May for not listening.

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