View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #7501
    Deleted
    rees mogg on lbc :

    Ferrari: "Pronounce on the health of the Chequers' deal..."

    JRM: "The pulse is very faint. Brexit is a fundamental error..."

    Ferrari: "Brexit?"

    JRM: "Chequers.... Chequers is a fundamental error."

    freudian slip.

    Farage also suggested deporting 3million EU nationals. Still jilted over his German wife telling him to walk.

  2. #7502
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Yep, I agree completely.

    But this is entirely the point…

    I can count only one poster (who need not be named) in this thread who takes the 10/10 eurosceptic position. And half the time I’m not entirely sure said poster is being 100% serious.

    If you’re putting me in the same category as said poster then you haven’t absorbed my position and I can’t be bothered to rehash it all.

    The Yanis Varoufakis Guardian quote / Greek interlude: I just thought it was interesting. I disagree with him entirely, but clearly he’s an intelligent chap coming from a certain political viewpoint.

    Fiscal union: entirely separate debate. I think its completely unachievable with the 19 eurozone countries. France / Germany want to enter fiscal union? Great. I think most people would agree this would be very sensible and be of benefit to both countries. Fiscal union within the eurozone? Get out of here! Never going to happen. Ever.

    However, we can now go back to the main purpose of this thread which is to bash the UK…

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-social-unrest

    Andy Burnham warns of social unrest while calling for a second referendum but isn’t specific about who’s going to be doing the rioting. Is he implying it’s going to be the Leavers doing the rioting? Is he unaware that it will be the Remainers rioting if we crash out with no deal?

    IMO social unrest is unavoidable now.
    I really didn't mean to put you in the same spot as the poster i will not name, i just wanted to be clear that even if i want the union to become even more of a union, i think criticising it is fine.

    Though i disagree that the fiscal union is a separate debate. The whole problem with greece could have been avoided if the EU had common fiscal and social policies. It would also greatly diminish the (to an extent correct) conception that some countries have to pay for out of control social security without benefiting themselves.

    Only France and Germany? I think now one on a national level likes it, as it takes a lot of power away from national governments. That's one of the reasons I (personally) like the idea. Why do we need 27 national governments. They're unnecessary. I dream about one EU superstate

  3. #7503
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    ive been thinking about the plus side of no deal brexit. Crystal Palace have alot of english players so would be one of the least effected clubs, champions league here we come (assuming we can get the visas to play in the champions league)
    Bosman would cease to apply to the UK, wouldn't it?
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  4. #7504
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Bosman would cease to apply to the UK, wouldn't it?
    I very much doubt that the various organisations involved wouldn't just carry on with post-bowman situation, especially as it holds to players at the ends of contracts, FIFPro in particular will fight that pretty hard.

    As for foreign player limits, the PL will oppose that tooth and nail as it will hurt their worldwide brand.

  5. #7505
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post

    IMO social unrest is unavoidable now.
    Was unavoidable when the results were so close that there really was no real consensus. It's become more unavoidable and worse with how it's been going on especially since more and more people are moving towards the remain side.

  6. #7506
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Was unavoidable when the results were so close that there really was no real consensus. It's become more unavoidable and worse with how it's been going on especially since more and more people are moving towards the remain side.
    It's not even that. What's worse is that Brexit is steering towards more extreme positions. It's not "how much Brexit" at this point, it's either Remain fully or Brexit fully. Polar opposites, the few moderates that are in the middle (which are probably the majority) don't pipe up and suddenly you have just the two extreme positions fighting each other.

    It's the same kind of silly division the US is suffering from.
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  7. #7507
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    but one big problem with setting up the Euro is not having a fiscal policy to go with it. Fiscal and monetary policy should go hand in hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Though i disagree that the fiscal union is a separate debate. The whole problem with greece could have been avoided if the EU had common fiscal and social policies.
    Yes.

    The problem, though, is that this absolutely necessary fiscal union will never be agreed upon!

    Germany, France, Belgium & Luxembourg? Maybe.

    All 19 Eurozone countries including Greece, Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia, etc.? lol. Never going to happen. Pigs will fly. I just don’t believe you will ever achieve the necessary consensus either among the populace or the political classes.

    The rapid and poorly implemented expansion of the Eurozone is one of the reasons why the EU, in its current form, is in a mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    At some point we need to sit down and seriously rethink what we want from Europe, and what its governance should look like. Until then I guess we'll just have people lamenting how its choking businesses with regulation and imposing too much here, and not doing anything there.
    Yes, but from the UK’s pov, it’s a bit late for that now. And this is one of my fundamental reasons for voting Remain: that by leaving the table we are no in a longer in a position to influence Europe’s future. This is a catastrophic error.

    Which leads on to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    I think predicting social unrest is a bit premature
    In what way is it premature?

    A second referendum - riots
    Hard Brexit and all it entails - riots

    The only scenario I can envisage in which there aren’t riots is some sort of fudged soft Brexit where the UK gets to have its cake and eat it. But as all you lot are so rightly pointing out… how likely is this?
    Last edited by Nigel Tufnel; 2018-09-05 at 09:50 PM. Reason: typos

  8. #7508
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Andy Burnham warns of social unrest while calling for a second referendum but isn’t specific about who’s going to be doing the rioting. Is he implying it’s going to be the Leavers doing the rioting? Is he unaware that it will be the Remainers rioting if we crash out with no deal?

    IMO social unrest is unavoidable now.
    TBH I think Leavers and Remainers should put their differences aside and riot together, no matter what your hopes for the EU and Brexiting/not-Brexiting I think most will agree that the government and opposition have completely cocked it up through gross incompetence and/or infighting.

  9. #7509
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    TBH I think Leavers and Remainers should put their differences aside and riot together, no matter what your hopes for the EU and Brexiting/not-Brexiting I think most will agree that the government and opposition have completely cocked it up through gross incompetence and/or infighting.
    Just make all one side in Lazio blue and the other in Roma colours. Add a few Ultras into each side and let them loose.

  10. #7510
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Yes.

    The problem, though, is that this absolutely necessary fiscal union will never be agreed upon!

    Germany, France, Belgium & Luxembourg? Maybe.

    All 19 Eurozone countries including Greece, Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia, etc.? lol. Never going to happen. Pigs will fly. I just don’t believe you will ever achieve the necessary consensus either among the populace or the political classes.

    The rapid and poorly implemented expansion of the Eurozone is one of the reasons why the EU, in its current form, is in a mess.



    Yes, but from the UK’s pov, it’s a bit late for that now. And this is one of my fundamental reasons for voting Remain: that by leaving the table we are no in a longer in a position to influence Europe’s future. This is a catastrophic error.

    Which leads on to:



    In what way is it premature?

    A second referendum - riots
    Hard Brexit and all it entails - riots

    The only scenario I can envisage in which there aren’t riots is some sort of fudged soft Brexit where the UK gets to have its cake and eat it. But as all you lot are so rightly pointing out… how likely is this?
    I don't know that it would be hard to sell to the people or political classes. You hear a lot of noise from extremes, but maybe all the people in between would be ok with it. If the fiscal union had a fiscal transfer mechanism, it could help ease the debt from poorer countries to richer ones. I don't know if Greece would be vehemently opposed to that.

    The only riots in the UK are after football games. It looks like everybody is happy enough to let this shitshow continue and watch it unfold from their couch.

  11. #7511
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    A fiscal union would require further regulatory alignment and there would be a lot of uncomfortable debates on how public service works in certain countries like Spain or Greece. Even with the overwhelming pressure exercised on Greece, our public servants are still permanent and still enjoy a variety of benefits substantially greater than those available in the private sector.
    Oh that's for sure. It will be uncomfortable, and it will not happen anytime soon.
    But to say this is not happening, ever, is equally far fetched.

  12. #7512
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The Eastern Expansion, the way the financial crisis and the immigration crisis have been handled, none of these are conducive to further integration.
    Not at this stage, maybe. But progress is going to happen. Right now, money isn't distributed in the best manner. Countries like France and Germany will want some control over the money's effective distribution, that is... they don't want it wasted in some grubby politicians pockets but see it used for actual projects that help those countries catch up. That's the point of the whole thing. If that doesn't happen, things will need to change.

    And yes, those talks would be uncomfortable. As they should be, there's a lot of shit going down in Italy. They need to get their act together.
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  13. #7513
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The Eastern Expansion, the way the financial crisis and the immigration crisis have been handled, none of these are conducive to further integration.
    I'm not sure what you mean with the Eastern Expansion in this context, but I'll argue that the way the financial and refugee crisis were handled are precisely indicators that further integration should be seriously discussed. In both case an EU wide response was urgently needed but there was no mandate for the EU to act at first.
    Instead of waiting for stuff to happen and then panic, talking about the areas more integration is needed or not would be more proactive.
    It will have to happen if the EU wants to survive. We can't go back, but we can't stay where we are either.

  14. #7514
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Why? That's Italy. This is how it has been for decades. It's not like the history of Italian politics was hidden from anyone it was readily available. This is their country and that's how they want to run it.

    Seriously, stop expecting from other countries to suddenly change from how they have always been. If what they are is not acceptable, then you should be pissed that the EU was created with them among its founders because Italian politics have been extremely corrupt since forever and in a very public manner. EU accession is not a blank check for foreign states to be able to make demands on the sovereignty of others for things that have always been very much visible; demand for those things to change before making a union with someone. The same is true for Eastern Europe; why on earth did the EU think that former soviet regimes would suddenly change and become democratic in as short as a couple of decades? It takes much, much longer than that.
    No, I won't accept corruption "because it's always been like that". Especially not for the one country that somehow managed to rule half of Europe successfully and showed us how bureaucracy, justice and a proper legal system actually works.

    What is in the past, is in the past. But those countries can adjust, just like Germany and France adjusted. And it would be beneficial to their people, too.
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  15. #7515
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not even that. What's worse is that Brexit is steering towards more extreme positions. It's not "how much Brexit" at this point, it's either Remain fully or Brexit fully. Polar opposites, the few moderates that are in the middle (which are probably the majority) don't pipe up and suddenly you have just the two extreme positions fighting each other.

    It's the same kind of silly division the US is suffering from.
    Oh come on, there is no moderate brexit so you really shouldn't try to look for it and don't try to make it sound like leaving the EU and remaining the EU is the same because the EU goes much deeper then that.

    The EU is what it is, you either accept the basic premise or you don't. If you do your still have to follow the EU rules without having any say into it (like Switserland) and if you don't want to accept the EU as it is than your at best a country like Canada, a partner.

  16. #7516
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8524431.html

    UK would vote 59-41 to stay in EU, according to new poll.

  17. #7517
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8524431.html

    UK would vote 59-41 to stay in EU, according to new poll.
    Interesting but I don't see it making any difference. I would guess that we would need multiple polls with at least 70% in favour of remain before we start to see any movement from the government.

  18. #7518
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Dude, are you comparing modern Italy with Ancient Rome? This romanticism on how you view certain countries (like Greece) based on their ancient history is pointless and irrational.

    Italy is not suddenly going to change. There is no political class just waiting to replace the current one.

    And this is not about you accepting it or not. You just don't have a say in it. Is it bad for everyone involved and could they be better with cleaner governance? Well rationally the answer is yes. But it is up to them to decide that. Not the EU. Unless they crash so badly that they come begging and then you can strip them of their sovereignty "for their own good" and dictate terms.
    It's not pointless nor irrational. I'm telling you, I don't care what you say, think or what your opinion is. Italy can and will end corruption to a level that is acceptable within the EU. So will Greece. Saying that corruption is inevitable because those countries are basically populated by would-be criminals by default is a notion I won't accept within the EU.

    So you can scratch that excuse right off your argument-chart. It's bullshit and Greece is suffering for it already. I have no problems with that. Greece will stand up eventually and they will learn how to behave. Because there won't be a second chance. There is no "next time". If Greece fucks up again, we'll toss them to Eritrea and see how well they get along with the third world, because that's where they'll end up in.

    People have to stop thinking the EU is wellfare. It's not. You've got to earn your keep.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Oh come on, there is no moderate brexit so you really shouldn't try to look for it and don't try to make it sound like leaving the EU and remaining the EU is the same because the EU goes much deeper then that.

    The EU is what it is, you either accept the basic premise or you don't. If you do your still have to follow the EU rules without having any say into it (like Switserland) and if you don't want to accept the EU as it is than your at best a country like Canada, a partner.
    I think the silent majority is pretty moderate, a moderate Brexit... well, I've always said it's a bullshit idea. But I wasn't speaking about what is possible. I was speaking about what Britains think is possible. And since the majority over there still seems to be seriously deluded into a fantasy, let's admit that there is a "moderate" position, albeit unrealistic, that isn't really talking a lot in the public discussion.
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  19. #7519
    Deleted
    The "moderate" Brexiteer position is just ending up like Norway, same rules as everyone else with no political say, and if we end up with that it'll be both Remainers and the hardcore Leavers up in arms.

  20. #7520
    Deleted
    Davis Davis going on a leave means leave protest.

    So hes protesting his own 2 year performance after hes quit.

    These people are mince.

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