View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #7841
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    5,774
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not deflecting anything. I am asking you to explain what exactly the laws regarding zero-hour contracts in the UK are, not a quote from Wikipedia, and what exactly is bad about them.
    And i asked you why do you think it's a good practice for the UK workforce.

    And i asked first.

    And i did respond to your question; exploitation, vulnerability, trapped in a poverty spiral, no vision no plan for the future, yaddi yadda.

    you are deflecting, you are not putting forth argument in favor of zero hour contract. You're refusing the debate. You are basically just trolling then.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2018-08-15 at 12:04 PM.

  2. #7842
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    My main gripe with mine was that you can't refuse extra hours, which in turn means they are not flexible in the slightest. All the power rests with the employer and none with the employee, you get given your hours and you work those hours or you get fired.
    You can, in theory, having no set hours is a two way street meaning that both the employer and the worker are able to alter their working patterns. Consistently refusing to work extra hours may well be grounds to terminate employment however I have never know this to happen (not saying it does not) and it certainly not the best way to maintain staff morale. There are other laws in place which would mean that terminating employment based on the worker's refusal to work erratic hours is a risky, and likely costly, strategy for the business.

  3. #7843
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You can, in theory, having no set hours is a two way street meaning that both the employer and the worker are able to alter their working patterns. Consistently refusing to work extra hours may well be grounds to terminate employment however I have never know this to happen (not saying it does not) and it certainly not the best way to maintain staff morale. There are other laws in place which would mean that terminating employment based on the worker's refusal to work erratic hours is a risky, and likely costly, strategy for the business.
    No my contract said in clear terms "you must accept all hours given" and rotas were done 1 week in advance. There was no flexibility and there are no laws protecting employees from this behaviour.

  4. #7844
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    And i asked you why do you think it's a good practice for the UK workforce.

    And i asked first.

    And i did respond to your question; exploitation, vulnerability, trapped in a poverty spiral, no vision no plan for the future, yaddi yadda.

    you are deflecting, you are not putting forth argument in favor of zero hour contract. You're refusing the debate. You are basically just trolling then.
    So? I have already answered this.

    No, I asked someone else first you butted in with a silly question.

    You responded however your response was not to the question I asked. Again what are the UK laws with regard to zero-hour contracts? Until you can establish that you know and understand what the laws are you cannot make statements about exploitation.

    It is not my fault that you cannot answer what I have asked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Why exactly are you attacking me for replying to some other person about this.

    Off on ignore you go - your eternal bickering is annoying.
    I am not attacking you. Asking you to back up your statement is not an attack.

    Okey-dokey. Ta-ta. I understand that is much easier for you than explaining your statement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    No my contract said in clear terms "you must accept all hours given" and rotas were done 1 week in advance. There was no flexibility and there are no laws protecting employees from this behaviour.
    There are plenty of laws protecting employees from this type of behaviour however given the nature of the majority of zero-hours jobs it is not usually worth the time or effort of the employee to challenge this and in many cases they simply find an alternative job when treated this way.

  5. #7845
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There are plenty of laws protecting employees from this type of behaviour however given the nature of the majority of zero-hours jobs it is not usually worth the time or effort of the employee to challenge this and in many cases they simply find an alternative job when treated this way.
    Quote them then, because I couldn't find any. If you're classed as an employee you must work any hours given, if you're a worker you can turn down work but you're not protected by unfair dismissal or time off for emergencies. I was an employee, I had no input on what hours I worked.

  6. #7846
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Quote them then, because I couldn't find any. If you're classed as an employee you must work any hours given, if you're a worker you can turn down work but you're not protected by unfair dismissal or time off for emergencies. I was an employee, I had no input on what hours I worked.
    All employees in the UK regards of the hours they are contracted to work are protected from unfair dismissal.

    --------

    Zero hour contracts

    Zero hour contracts are also known as casual contracts. Zero hour contracts are usually for ‘piece work’ or ‘on call’ work, eg interpreters.

    This means:

    they are on call to work when you need them
    you don’t have to give them work
    they don’t have to do work when asked

    Zero hour workers are entitled to statutory annual leave and the National Minimum Wage in the same way as regular workers.

    You can’t do anything to stop a zero hours worker from getting work elsewhere. The law says they can ignore a clause in their contract if it bans them from:

    looking for work
    accepting work from another employer

    You are still responsible for health and safety of staff on zero hour contracts

    https://www.gov.uk/contract-types-an...hour-contracts


    ------

    Zero Hours Myth Busting

    FACT: Zero hours workers are not obliged to accept work

    If the zero hours contract is a genuinely casual arrangement, the worker is not obliged to accept any of the hours offered.

    There is a risk that a worker who persistently refuses work when an employer offers it may ultimately influence the employer to terminate the arrangement. However, it is not good practice for an employer to try and force the worker to work, as this may call into question whether or not this is a genuinely casual arrangement, and it is also unlikely to help with staff morale and productivity.

    http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4469
    Last edited by Pann; 2018-08-15 at 12:38 PM.

  7. #7847
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    All employees in the UK regards of the hours they are contracted to work are protected from unfair dismissal.

    --------

    Zero hour contracts

    Zero hour contracts are also known as casual contracts. Zero hour contracts are usually for ‘piece work’ or ‘on call’ work, eg interpreters.

    This means:

    they are on call to work when you need them
    you don’t have to give them work
    they don’t have to do work when asked

    Zero hour workers are entitled to statutory annual leave and the National Minimum Wage in the same way as regular workers.

    You can’t do anything to stop a zero hours worker from getting work elsewhere. The law says they can ignore a clause in their contract if it bans them from:

    looking for work
    accepting work from another employer

    You are still responsible for health and safety of staff on zero hour contracts

    https://www.gov.uk/contract-types-an...hour-contracts
    What are you trying to show with this? I just explained to you that there are two types of employment status you can have under Zero Hours. One is "worker" where you can turn down hours but have no protections. The other is "employee" where you can't refuse work but benefit from standard protections.

  8. #7848
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    What are you trying to show with this? I just explained to you that there are two types of employment status you can have under Zero Hours. One is "worker" where you can turn down hours but have no protections. The other is "employee" where you can't refuse work but benefit from standard protections.
    Employees have additional rights from workers one such right is to be able to request flexible working hours and they are also entitled to time off in emergencies.

  9. #7849
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Because those are inhumane labour practices. I mean we got rid of repeated 1-year contracts, this one is a whole different kind of exploitation. I wonder, what would happen if the employee said "Great, I'd like to help, but I'm already engaged in this other job, because I need to pay rent"? He'd probably get fired, right? How is that even sustainable if you ignore labour protection?
    Sorry, seems the rhetorical nature of my question was still not obvious enough xD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I understand how crossing borders is a foreign concept to someone living on an island, but for continental Europeans living near borders, this is reality. And for them it is actually very normal to buy from across the "border". The borders are gone. They buy wherevery they want to buy for whatever reason they like. That is consumer friendly. That you dismiss my examples doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just means you have no idea how border people think. You have no idea whatsoever. It's sad that you even think yourself qualified to comment on anything outside the UK. And I'm not even getting into the idiocy about the EU not having earth on plugs. Do you think electrics work differently in the EU? That somehow we can make electric power work physically different by EU regulation? Goddamn, you are absolutely bonkers.
    You must understand, he never left the UK ever before, and he thinks everyone ought to be just like him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I have already done so
    No, you didn't.
    You made an unsubstantiated claim about some company that allengedly exists but which you couldn't name when asked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not deflecting anything.
    You are, it is your standard modus operandi.
    We are used to it by now.

  10. #7850
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Employees have additional rights from workers one such right is to be able to request flexible working hours and they are also entitled to time off in emergencies.
    You can request flexible working hours, that doesn't mean you have the right to flexible working hours or will be given them.
    Last edited by Kronik85; 2018-08-15 at 02:09 PM.

  11. #7851
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I understand how crossing borders is a foreign concept to someone living on an island, but for continental Europeans living near borders, this is reality. And for them it is actually very normal to buy from across the "border". The borders are gone. They buy wherevery they want to buy for whatever reason they like. That is consumer friendly. That you dismiss my examples doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just means you have no idea how border people think. You have no idea whatsoever. It's sad that you even think yourself qualified to comment on anything outside the UK. And I'm not even getting into the idiocy about the EU not having earth on plugs. Do you think electrics work differently in the EU? That somehow we can make electric power work physically different by EU regulation? Goddamn, you are absolutely bonkers.
    Totally right, some family members (who are closer to the Belgian border) actually buy there groceries and fuel is Belgium, back in ye olde days you couldnt do that, try sitting in a border crossing for 1hour+
    ''With this attack, we have no choice but to protect our kind by unleashing our almighty weapon upon them. Summoning the Apocalypse'' - Stellaris Apocalypse trailer.

  12. #7852
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Totally right, some family members (who are closer to the Belgian border) actually buy there groceries and fuel is Belgium, back in ye olde days you couldnt do that, try sitting in a border crossing for 1hour+
    When I was 18 I tended to go to Denmark every other month and buy beer. Train was cheap, beer was at the supermarket the other side of the road from the train station, and in Sweden I had to be 20. Then it was just a question of not getting a random ID and customs check. As there was a tiny chance of a contraband check which does still happen.
    Wouldn't have been possible without the EU.
    - Lars

  13. #7853
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    You can request flexible working hours, that doesn't mean you have the right to flexible working hours or will be given them.
    The business has to deal with the request for flexible working hours in a reasonable manner, assuming the employee has 26 weeks service, if not the employee can take them to an employment tribunal. Refusing such a request would depend on whether there was a good business case for denying it and it is doubtful that an employer that employs it staff on zero-hours basis would be able to put forth a good business reason for doing so.

  14. #7854
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Sorry, seems the rhetorical nature of my question was still not obvious enough xD
    I apologize, I recently made the same mistake... this whole topic is so absurd that sarcasm barely stands above the rest, really. See, if Dribbles had used your exact same words, he'd have been serious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Totally right, some family members (who are closer to the Belgian border) actually buy there groceries and fuel is Belgium, back in ye olde days you couldnt do that, try sitting in a border crossing for 1hour+
    Anyone living around Luxembourg is likely to cross borderds once a week at least, I reckon. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if someone went to Belgium to work, bought groceries on the way in Luxembourg, visited a friend in Germany before going to their home in France. This isn't just a stupid example, the Benelux area profits so much from Schengen, if we abolished the EU, they would literally riot and disallow their Governments to put borders up, I think.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  15. #7855
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Brexitia
    Posts
    2,629
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    And i asked you why do you think it's a good practice for the UK workforce.

    And i asked first.

    And i did respond to your question; exploitation, vulnerability, trapped in a poverty spiral, no vision no plan for the future, yaddi yadda.

    you are deflecting, you are not putting forth argument in favor of zero hour contract. You're refusing the debate. You are basically just trolling then.
    Are you joking Eurochums? You criticise a UK employment sytem that provides for virtually full employment. Suprisingly the EU released their youth unemployment figures just 2 weeks ago which I happened upon and should share, let's compare.

    Greece 39.7%
    Spain 34.1%
    Italy 32.6%
    Croatia 22.7%
    France 20.4%

    Disgraceful and inhuman if you ask me and a failed social model if ever I saw one.

    Zero hours contracts are not meant to be a full time life career choice, but more for people who want to work more casually and perhaps part time eg students, semi retired and have been fantastic for women who can fit a hobby job around their home general duties of washing, cooking and cleaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Totally right, some family members (who are closer to the Belgian border) actually buy there groceries and fuel is Belgium, back in ye olde days you couldnt do that, try sitting in a border crossing for 1hour+
    So what percentage of the EU population "enjoys" this fantastic benefit that only the EU can organise at a running cost of hundreds of billions of euro? Would you say 1 in a 100 benefit? 1 in a 1000? 1 in a million? Aren't you just illustrating the EU motto :- For the few, not the many?

  16. #7856
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    So what percentage of the EU population "enjoys" this fantastic benefit that only the EU can organise at a running cost of hundreds of billions of euro? Would you say 1 in a 100 benefit? 1 in a 1000? 1 in a million? Aren't you just illustrating the EU motto :- For the few, not the many?
    What's puzzling me is that you seem to think this is a zero sum game. You talk as if there's a downside to it. There isn't. That's the point. Why not do it? This is your folly and this is why you make a fool of yourself so much. You seem to think that somehow the dude in the centre of a country is suffering because the dude at the border can cross into the other country without border checks.

    This benefit isn't costing anything. Quite the opposite, it's saving money, because we do not need the customs border infrastructure. So what the fuck are you even talking about?
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  17. #7857
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    5,774
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Are you joking Eurochums? You criticise a UK employment sytem that provides for virtually full employment. Suprisingly the EU released their youth unemployment figures just 2 weeks ago which I happened upon and should share, let's compare.

    Greece 39.7%
    Spain 34.1%
    Italy 32.6%
    Croatia 22.7%
    France 20.4%

    Disgraceful and inhuman if you ask me and a failed social model if ever I saw one.

    Zero hours contracts are not meant to be a full time life career choice, but more for people who want to work more casually and perhaps part time eg students, semi retired and have been fantastic for women who can fit a hobby job around their home general duties of washing, cooking and cleaning.
    This is what i thought, you confirmed it.

    That 0 hour contract is a trick to hide true number of unemployment. I bet people hired with this contract aren't counted as unemployed even if they didn't work that week or that month.

    look, this has nothing to do with brexit, you can be pro or against brexit ans still have a complete separate opinion of the zero hour contract. I happen to think that contract is very unfriendly for worker right and too easily manipulated to exploit vulnerable workers.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2018-08-16 at 07:41 AM.

  18. #7858
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    21,050
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    This is what i thought, you confirmed it.

    That 0 hour contract is a trick to hide true number of unemployment. I bet people hired with this contract aren't counted as unemployed even if they didn't work that week or that month.

    look, this has nothing to do with brexit, you can be pro or against brexit ans still have a complete separate opinion of the zero hour contract. I happen to think that contract is very unfriendly for worker right and too easily manipulated to exploit vulnerable workers.
    You're talking to dribbs, everything has to do with brexit. Even ww2 and the moon landing, i s'pose.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  19. #7859
    0 hour contracts are a fucking cancer and should be removed.

  20. #7860
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    5,774
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    0 hour contracts are a fucking cancer and should be removed.
    they can easily be replace by short term contract, seasonal or interim contract. when a company has an temporary increase of activity, allow them to draft short term work contract to recruit help. There is no need to have people on call indefinitely.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •