[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Kallisto]

It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.

[Nigel Tufnel]

It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.

Hmmms. Personally, I think that's crediting too much pro-PR sentiment to the population.

I voted yes as a step in the right direction. I'm not convinced a large number of people who voted no did so because they felt the proposed system fell short of full PR.

[Pann]

It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.

No-one really cares one way or the other about PR which is why most people couldn't be bothered to vote in the 2011 referendum and why no-one outside of obscure youtube videos has mentioned it since.

A few years ago you might have had a point when Lib Dem voters did want PR but as soon as they found out what being the junior party in power actually meant they decided that they would not vote Lib Dem in future.

[Kallisto]

Hmmms. Personally, I think that's crediting too much pro-PR sentiment to the population.

I voted yes as a step in the right direction. I'm not convinced a large number of people who voted no did so because they felt the proposed system fell short of full PR.

Oh I didn't say they voted no, more that they didn't vote due to frustration on the stupid idea, voted yes or spoiled their ballot in protest of it.

[Nigel Tufnel]

*whispers*

IDD with either of you. It's complicated.

Please can we present a united front against the sadistic Belgian?

Ta very much.

[Xarkan]

My problem with Acidbaron's stance is that that the poster seems to reside in a world where: the Austrian Freedom Party, Vlaams Blok, Danish People's Party, National Front (lol Le Pen finished second to Macron), Viktor Orbán, Lega Nord etc. etc. (I'm just listing in alphabetical order of countries) simply don't exist. Nor do the conditions in which they've come into existence and thrived exist either.

The Danish Peoples Party may have found a party that will go to lengths they would not dare go. The upcoming Danish Party The new Right

[Slant]

Who should we have voted in then? Corbyn and his ilk? Corbyn whose more of a Brexiteer than May? Or perhaps we could have gone with the limp dick Liberal Democrats, who'd have gladly taken up the challenge, and then given up within a month because it's too difficult.

We've been fucked since the referendum result, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand British politics.

This is a mistake leading from the referendum, nothing more. The last general election doesn't matter. The coalition with the DUP doesn't matter.

I don't expect or want sympathy from you, what i'm telling you is that you can't sit there and say "Lol fuck the Brits" whilst also ignoring the fact that every country in the EU is currently experiencing a surge in right wing populism.

I would say you might be next, but who really gives a shit if Belgium leaves anyway.

Hrm. Emotions are heating up. I'm sure you'll understand that it's easy to condemn the UK as a nation, unfairly to the remainers, sure, but it's a constant effort not to blame the lot of you for what is essentially your way of doing politics. This isn't just the referendum, this is how a nation with one of the oldest democracies hasn't found the political (or should I say public) will to reform a shitty system. This isn't just Brexiteers, you've had questionable decisions made long before that. You're all very good at complaining about your politicians, and you're right about that, but nothing seems to change. As soon as one of the complainers actually does get into some political office, they seem to turn into the corrupt politicians waiting for their pension instead of actually doing their job.

Not defending Acidbaron, I think we ought to do an effort to not go overboard, but it's an explanation maybe. Some of us have to constantly remind ourselves that the political class isn't the typical Brit. And perhaps you'll acknowledge that everyone on the continent is affected by a unilateral decision your country made. We didn't choose this. Like it or not, we have the right to complain and bitch as much as you do. And some of it will be unreasonable. Can't be helped, try to sympathize with us a little, too. We may not hate it as much as you do, but we are not happy campers over here ourselves.

And to be honest, you'll get a lot more Schadenfreude over the next few months/years. Suit up, you're the new Germany. Some call that irony, I believe...

[Deleted]

Hrm. Emotions are heating up. I'm sure you'll understand that it's easy to condemn the UK as a nation, unfairly to the remainers, sure, but it's a constant effort not to blame the lot of you for what is essentially your way of doing politics. This isn't just the referendum, this is how a nation with one of the oldest democracies hasn't found the political (or should I say public) will to reform a shitty system. This isn't just Brexiteers, you've had questionable decisions made long before that. You're all very good at complaining about your politicians, and you're right about that, but nothing seems to change. As soon as one of the complainers actually does get into some political office, they seem to turn into the corrupt politicians waiting for their pension instead of actually doing their job.

Yeah, we're the only ones with politicians like this in Europe. No other country in the entire EU has problems with its political class.

Not defending Acidbaron, I think we ought to do an effort to not go overboard, but it's an explanation maybe. Some of us have to constantly remind ourselves that the political class isn't the typical Brit. And perhaps you'll acknowledge that everyone on the continent is affected by a unilateral decision your country made. We didn't choose this. Like it or not, we have the right to complain and bitch as much as you do. And some of it will be unreasonable. Can't be helped, try to sympathize with us a little, too. We may not hate it as much as you do, but we are not happy campers over here ourselves.

I acknowledge that everyone on the continent will be affected, and I feel ashamed that the actions of my countrymen will make life worse for everyone else in the EU, even a small part. You have every right to bitch and complain, so long as its directed at the right people. The people who actually did it. Not the entire population, nowhere even close to the entire population.

And to be honest, you'll get a lot more Schadenfreude over the next few months/years. Suit up, you're the new Germany. Some call that irony, I believe...

Lets not compare Brexit to two World Wars shall we? That's a step too far.

As for defending Acidbaron, good, don't.

I'm done holding back all the bile and vitriol i've got for arrogant continentals who've been waiting for this opportunity for decades.

[Slant]

Yeah, we're the only ones with politicians like this in Europe. No other country in the entire EU has problems with its political class.

I acknowledge that everyone on the continent will be affected, and I feel ashamed that the actions of my countrymen will make life worse for everyone else in the EU, even a small part. You have every right to bitch and complain, so long as its directed at the right people. The people who actually did it. Not the entire population, nowhere even close to the entire population.

Lets not compare Brexit to two World Wars shall we? That's a step too far.

As for defending Acidbaron, good, don't.

I'm done holding back all the bile and vitriol i've got for arrogant continentals who've been waiting for this opportunity for decades.

Yes, you are the only ones with politicians like that. We all have our idiots, but have you seen many Art. 50s lately? Everyone has a problem with politicians, but someone had to be the first to drag it up to this level. The US and the UK have done it pretty much at the same time. The good news, however, is that it brought some sense back into the rest of us, so at least there's something good coming out of it.

We are directing it at the right people, when we say "the UK", we are talking about the country, that is the Government, not the people. And perhaps Brexiteers, although many of them are victims just as much as you are. Misguided by outright lies. I get it, at some point you have to believe at least parts of what politicians are saying. Otherwise, what's the point in democracy? I can empathize with that. Unfortunately, there won't be any repercussions for those liars and that's very, very regrettable.

Oh, I knew you'd be getting the Germany reference wrong. I'm not talking about the world wars directly, I'm talking about someone being the butt of bad taste jokes. The UK has done it with Germany for decades, so yeah... suit up warmly, fair or not, you'll have some banter coming your way. Arrogant continentals? We've suffered the famed British arrogance far longer than you have. Get some thick skin if you are losing your temper over this. This is nothing to what the British have afflicted onto the world over centuries in terms of arrogance. I mean, the pinnacle is your Prime Minister actually demanding the impossible from the EU and then having the nerve to be all offended that she was denied. Nah, your country is not exactly easy to sympathize with. We sympathize with people like you, but the nation as a whole? Switch it around, Germany leaves, Britain stays in the EU and Germany goes "Ok, here are our demands, you are obligated to fulfill them now otherwise it would be disrespectful!" Jesus Christ, one doesn't need a lot of imagination to think up what the response would be. Holy shit, it would be a feast for your politicians.. worth at least one general election for the PM, if I dare make that speculation. And the press... oh my. We all know what the Sun would do with that scenario!

So, as we say over here... Someone dealing blows needs to be able to take a few hits, too. You're up.

[Nigel Tufnel]

/snip

Yep, I know. It's just when it crosses over into nation-bashing, which I think we all agree is a bad thing.

This is nothing to what the British have afflicted onto the world over centuries in terms of arrogance.

Also, do we need a history 101 at this point? It's not just Britain that can claim centuries of arrogance. Are you referring to colonialism? Wasn't it the Portugese and Spanish who started it? How about implicit apartheid in the Belgian Congo? Or is this not what you're getting at?

You know the problem with this thread? There's no-one to argue with properly. We're just bickering with each other. There are only a couple of bona fide Leavers and some trolls. The vast majority of the Brits here are Remainers of varying degrees of conviction.

And you know why? It's because the demographics who voted Leave do not visit MMO-C. That or they're being very silent. I'd be genuinely very interested to read the opinion of someone who voted Leave who isn't Dribbles or Floopa.

Anyone got a racist Gran they could roll out?

[Slant]

Yep, I know. It's just when it crosses over into nation-bashing, which I think we all agree is a bad thing.



Also, do we need a history 101 at this point? It's not just Britain that can claim centuries of arrogance. Are you referring to colonialism? Wasn't it the Portugese and Spanish who started it? How about implicit apartheid in the Belgian Congo? Or is this not what you're getting at?

I'm not trying to legitimise or justify hating on the UK. I'm merely pointing out how mainland Europe sees it. Basically, "it's complicated". But, and perhaps I haven't stressed this enough, this doesn't mean that we talk about the British people. Especially on this forum, nations are more like meeples rather than the combined sum of people. My land is better than your land! Doesn't mean I'm better than you, the same discussion could be had between a Juventus and a Manchester United supporter. We've learned to tolerate it in Germany, so can you. No hard feelings, just take the joke and smile...

In the end, the main constant I hear in this topic from politicians on our side is... you can always just make it go away. All it needs is a call from May asking for her letter back. And nobody would have ill feelings.

[Pann]

Yep, I know. It's just when it crosses over into nation-bashing, which I think we all agree is a bad thing.

This whole thread is nothing but nation bashing.

...There are only a couple of bona fide Leavers and some trolls. The vast majority of the Brits here are Remainers of varying degrees of conviction.

And you know why? It's because the demographics who voted Leave do not visit MMO-C. That or they're being very silent. I'd be genuinely very interested to read the opinion of someone who voted Leave who isn't Dribbles or Floopa.

Why would any leave voter want to subject themselves to the type of playground bullying that follows pretty much every post that Dribbles makes?

[Slant]

Why would any leave voter want to subject themselves to the type of playground bullying that follows pretty much every post that Dribbles makes?

Dribbles doesn't stand for the average leave voter, he's a very special child indeed. The truth is that if you voted leave and you come here, someone will ask you to justify your vote. And as should be crystal clear by now (and has been before the vote for most of us), you'd have a really hard time finding an actual argument based in fact to justify a leave vote beyond "I believed their lies".

I have yet to hear a single argument, in over 450 pages, that would sensibly explain why it would be a good idea to leave the EU. Just give me one. One would be enough to shut me up. Go ahead, just pretend and think of the most reasonable argument one could come up with.

[Nadiru]

Dribbles doesn't stand for the average leave voter, he's a very special child indeed. The truth is that if you voted leave and you come here, someone will ask you to justify your vote. And as should be crystal clear by now (and has been before the vote for most of us), you'd have a really hard time finding an actual argument based in fact to justify a leave vote beyond "I believed their lies".

I have yet to hear a single argument, in over 450 pages, that would sensibly explain why it would be a good idea to leave the EU. Just give me one. One would be enough to shut me up. Go ahead, just pretend and think of the most reasonable argument one could come up with.

Combining a bunch of different economies with a bunch of different geographies into the same currency zone is a recipe for the industrial retardation of countries with inferior geographies. Since all European countries actually enjoy the fruits of industrialization, it's really kind of a no-brainer that some would like to leave. Historically, it's even a no-brainer that Britain would be a - if not the - first mover here.

[Kiri]

Combining a bunch of different economies with a bunch of different geographies into the same currency zone is a recipe for the industrial retardation of countries with inferior geographies. Since all European countries actually enjoy the fruits of industrialization, it's really kind of a no-brainer that some would like to leave. Historically, it's even a no-brainer that Britain would be a - if not the - first mover here.

The situation is a tad bit more complex than that. There are a lot of different effects in play here, from synergy effects over spillover to an improved position on trade through stronger bargaining power. Reducing a complex system to one or two effects that would be remedied by the desired move is exactly how we got into this situation in the first place.
My opinion on the matter is that introducing the Euro when and how it happened was a mistake, but an exit is not really a solution to the issue created.

[Nadiru]

The situation is a tad bit more complex than that. There are a lot of different effects in play here, from synergy effects over spillover to an improved position on trade through stronger bargaining power. Reducing a complex system to one or two effects that would be remedied by the desired move is exactly how we got into this situation in the first place.
My opinion on the matter is that introducing the Euro when and how it happened was a mistake, but an exit is not really a solution to the issue created.

Those complexities largely determine the specifics of the haves and have-nots in the EU system. They do not determine the broader analysis which really does boil down to "Southern Europe cannot compete with Northern Europe, and it's completely unreasonable to think that they ever could." More importantly, Slant laid down a (really stupid) gauntlet of 'one sensible argument' which I have happily provided, in as little as three lines of text. Everything else is just quibbling about whom gets what.

[Kiri]

Those complexities largely determine the specifics of the haves and have-nots in the EU system. They do not determine the broader analysis which really does boil down to "Southern Europe cannot compete with Northern Europe, and it's completely unreasonable to think that they ever could." More importantly, Slant laid down a (really stupid) gauntlet of 'one sensible argument' which I have happily provided, in as little as three lines of text. Everything else is just quibbling about whom gets what.

They don't need to compete with them in order to be better off inside the EU and Euro, is the point.

[Nadiru]

They don't need to compete with them in order to be better off inside the EU and Euro, is the point.

It has nothing to do with whether they want to compete with north Europe, but more that because north Europe is so profoundly productive in comparison to southern Europe, the capital invariably flows from the south to the north. That Germany and France were unwilling to recognize their statuses as de facto hegemons and actually pay to sustain the system (Germany more than France) really reduced the amount of uncertainty. Now it's pretty much just a waiting game for any downturn that causes a banking collapse in Italy which will cause the effective dissolution of the European Union as French & German banks desperately try to wall off the contamination from the Italian banking structure.

[Fuiking]

It has nothing to do with whether they want to compete with north Europe, but more that because north Europe is so profoundly productive in comparison to southern Europe, the capital invariably flows from the south to the north. That Germany and France were unwilling to recognize their statuses as de facto hegemons and actually pay to sustain the system (Germany more than France) really reduced the amount of uncertainty. Now it's pretty much just a waiting game for any downturn that causes a banking collapse in Italy which will cause the effective dissolution of the European Union as French & German banks desperately try to wall off the contamination from the Italian banking structure.

If that collapse happens, im pretty sure it will start with the total collapse of the dutch economy of all places. Probaly after a knee jerk austerity measure done by Mark Rutte (I hate that lying bastard with a near murderous passion) which somehow makes investors super happy but destroys the buying power of the general populace (Which is already in a dangerous zone due to our housing market and tax increases)

[Nadiru]

If that collapse happens, im pretty sure it will start with the total collapse of the dutch economy of all places. Probaly after a knee jerk austerity measure done by Mark Rutte (I hate that lying bastard with a near murderous passion) which somehow makes investors super happy but destroys the buying power of the general populace (Which is already in a dangerous zone due to our housing market and tax increases)

The specific order more or less doesn't matter. Cross-collateralization means any weakness in any of these banking structures eats immediately at the heart of the engines running the EU: France and Germany. And since European credit access for businesses are overwhelmingly banking-based, the implosion of the EU banking system will also by definition mean the implosion of business creation and growth until such a time as new, credible banks are established. Which, y'know, that's scary.