View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #8081
    Back with real news. Not Daily Mail crazytown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45389610

    TL : DR again Chequers is still dead and the only options are not leave, norway or we're all fucked.

  2. #8082
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    deadline is mid-November, but that's it. ~11 weeks sound much, but UK will have to move earlier.

  3. #8083
    Nothing will happen. The UK is still convinced that the EU is bluffing. As long as they don't realise that the real EU isn't the one from their fantasy, May won't have a reason to change her attitude. She'll continue hoping for a miracle in the last second and waste time not looking for realistic solutions.
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  4. #8084
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Nothing will happen. The UK is still convinced that the EU is bluffing. As long as they don't realise that the real EU isn't the one from their fantasy, May won't have a reason to change her attitude. She'll continue hoping for a miracle in the last second and waste time not looking for realistic solutions.
    Ideological, May and many in the UK in general, do not understand and ultimately oppose the ideals that form the foundations of the EU. They do not think there is anything to be lost by the EU violating these principles because they do not share those principles. So they cannot comprehend why Brussels and many if not all of the EU states are appalled by their insistence that these principles do not matter and can be sacrificed at will.

    Beyond that, they are also incompetent and cannot fathom that you cannot really have free trade in goods but not in services at this point in time because they are completely linked.

  5. #8085
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Your disconnect with reality is total. I never expected to say this but Dribbles, how old are you even? Your lack of knowledge about Greece, and who is to blame for Greeces Austerity Programs tells me that either you lived under a rock, or your like 17....


    For Greece's austerity problems, and here I tend to agree on anti - EU people, thats its harsh but the option otherwise was a complete collapse of many banks (Bank of England etc etc) due to a cascading failure of banks to keep coverage over many of there services, the only thing you could blame the EU for is that they should have taken action far sooner, if you saw Greeces folk sport of tax evasion and corruption you would have expected them to take earlier action, alas however that never happened and heres the result of it: Nasty austerity measures, mostly on greeks on fault.

    And you know who wanted extremely harsh austerity measures on the Greeks? wasnt Germans, nor French, nor Austrians, but it was the dutch actually.
    EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

    EU apologists bother me
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  6. #8086
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Ideological, May and many in the UK in general, do not understand and ultimately oppose the ideals that form the foundations of the EU. They do not think there is anything to be lost by the EU violating these principles because they do not share those principles. So they cannot comprehend why Brussels and many if not all of the EU states are appalled by their insistence that these principles do not matter and can be sacrificed at will.

    Beyond that, they are also incompetent and cannot fathom that you cannot really have free trade in goods but not in services at this point in time because they are completely linked.
    And that should be the condition under which they can remain in the EU or reapply at a later stage. I don't even want money from them. I just want them to write on a public paper for everyone to see that they understand the core principles and then I want them to confirm that they understand how legislation works and that every member state, even they, is responsible for whatever legislation comes out of the EU at least in some democratic part.

    People often talk about conditions for the UK, this would be my condition. And I guess it's more unlikely that this would happen anytime soon than the UK coughing up the budget contributions they promised.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

    EU apologists bother me
    Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.
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  7. #8087
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And that should be the condition under which they can remain in the EU or reapply at a later stage. I don't even want money from them. I just want them to write on a public paper for everyone to see that they understand the core principles and then I want them to confirm that they understand how legislation works and that every member state, even they, is responsible for whatever legislation comes out of the EU at least in some democratic part.

    People often talk about conditions for the UK, this would be my condition. And I guess it's more unlikely that this would happen anytime soon than the UK coughing up the budget contributions they promised.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.
    More informed than the german it seems....

    Whatevee tho, go continue justifying how there was no other option despite other unions managing much better without throwing states into debt servitude all because certain countries cant have their banks face consequences.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  8. #8088
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.
    Pipe down you german pansy. When your country reaches America's economy of 20 trillion and military defence budget of 717 billion then we can have a dicussion.

  9. #8089
    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    deadline is mid-November, but that's it. ~11 weeks sound much, but UK will have to move earlier.
    We need to also add nothing in parliament can be started until after the conferences. Parliament is still in recess, comes back for a week and then goes away until mid october again. Essentially the UK has a month to decide if it wants to crash out, Norway or revoke Article 50.

  10. #8090
    Part of the Greek issue was that Italian banks would fail if Greece was left to go bankrupt as they had bound stupid amounts of capital in their Greek buddies and vice versa. Italy could not handle structurally significant banks collapsing and you'd have a chain reaction. The euro zone could handle Greece (and Cyprus for that matter) biting the bullet but Italy was simply too big so at first they had to buy the banking sector time to get their shit sorted and protect themselves. Once the banks were (mostly) safe Greece could theoretically have been allowed to default, go to hell and get rebuilt but that wasn't really in any-ones interest except apparently Alexis Zipras'.

    I'm told the US has a far more domestically focused economy so going Keynesian works better there.

    As for the actual topic at hand:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...P=share_btn_tw

  11. #8091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

    EU apologists bother me
    The US wasnt alone bailing out banks in 2008..

    At some point the goal must be to make debtors pay instead of having the tax payers pay for others irresponsible borrowing, in this case Greece had to pay rather than random european tax payers

  12. #8092
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    The US wasnt alone bailing out banks in 2008..

    At some point the goal must be to make debtors pay instead of having the tax payers pay for others irresponsible borrowing, in this case Greece had to pay rather than random european tax payers
    For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Btw nice union you have there if thats the case then lol.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  13. #8093
    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.
    Wow, that's pretty sophisticated victim blaming. But I don't expect anyone else from the country where the mess originated from. Like we'd take advice from a country that builds itself on corruption and fraud like that.
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  14. #8094
    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

    EU apologists bother me
    Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.

  15. #8095
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.
    Have you seen debt to gdp of greece before austerity and now? If austerity was a solution to prevent massive debt it has been a total failure.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  16. #8096
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.
    And the EU/Eurozone as a whole did not have a mandate or facility to deal with such bailouts and failing banks in a quick and orderly manner back then. It took until 2010 for the financial stability mechanism to be created, and more recently the single resolution board. The US could act much more quickly.
    But as you said, what course of action is the best is anyone's guess.

  17. #8097
    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    Have you seen debt to gdp of greece before austerity and now? If austerity was a solution to prevent massive debt it has been a total failure.
    I have seen this:



    Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce. But believe the whingefest, please. What do we know. We're only the driving motor in Europe, economically.

    Or this:



    Where unit laber costs in Greece were extraordinarily high, now they're back in line and following the same rate of climb Germany does. Much healthier!

    Or perhaps this:



    Where debt is decreasing since the austerity measures. What a failure. Absolute failure. They wanted to reduce debt, they are reducing debt. That's the definition of failure, isn't it?





    GDP rising again:



    I mean I can keep on posting pictures, but you're hellbent on hating the EU and Germany. Go right ahead, it's not like we're not used to it from uninformed Americans pretending their method of defrauding stock investors is the preferred method of investment banking and that indebting yourself is the best way to reduce debt. It's not. It's the best way to speed up an economy, perhaps even force it out of a recession. But it doesn't work if you don't have the economy to actually back that up in the long run. Sure, a healthy debt is a good thing if you need it. But Greece's ratings were in the junk section. The junk section. They were one step away from being the European Venezuela. Btw, those guys are literally using wheelcarts to bring the cash for a loaf of bread these days. Before you talk smack about the EU, who are quite big enough to see you eye to eye, you would do well to lecture Venezuela instead.

    Greece doesn't. And I hate people like you forcing me to point out that Greece has weaknesses. I'd like them to be economically strong. But they're not at the moment. And what we need are European solutions, not a carbon copy of the economy that crashes the world into global crisis after global crisis.
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-09-03 at 05:16 PM.
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  18. #8098
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I have seen this:



    Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce. But believe the whingefest, please. What do we know. We're only the driving motor in Europe, economically.

    Or this:



    Where unit laber costs in Greece were extraordinarily high, now they're back in line and following the same rate of climb Germany does. Much healthier!

    Or perhaps this:



    Where debt is decreasing since the austerity measures. What a failure. Absolute failure. They wanted to reduce debt, they are reducing debt. That's the definition of failure, isn't it?





    GDP rising again:



    I mean I can keep on posting pictures, but you're hellbent on hating the EU and Germany. Go right ahead, it's not like we're not used to it from uninformed Americans pretending their method of defrauding stock investors is the preferred method of investment banking and that indebting yourself is the best way to reduce debt. It's not. It's the best way to speed up an economy, perhaps even force it out of a recession. But it doesn't work if you don't have the economy to actually back that up in the long run. Sure, a healthy debt is a good thing if you need it. But Greece's ratings were in the junk section. The junk section. They were one step away from being the European Venezuela. Btw, those guys are literally using wheelcarts to bring the cash for a loaf of bread these days. Before you talk smack about the EU, who are quite big enough to see you eye to eye, you would do well to lecture Venezuela instead.

    Greece doesn't. And I hate people like you forcing me to point out that Greece has weaknesses. I'd like them to be economically strong. But they're not at the moment. And what we need are European solutions, not a carbon copy of the economy that crashes the world into global crisis after global crisis.
    You do realize Germany has had stagnant wage growth that rival that of the US right? Not sure why ANYONE would take pride in that or think its a model to emulate. I specially love this part:

    Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce.
    That is what happens when the economy grows for everyone my dude. I can only imagine what kind of sociopath celebrates wages going by that, unemployment reaching new sky high and almost breaking the entire nation for years and claim succes fora 2% gdp growth.
    Your problem is that you’re more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.

  19. #8099
    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    You do realize Germany has had stagnant wage growth that rival that of the US right? Not sure why ANYONE would take pride in that or think its a model to emulate. I specially love this part:

    That is what happens when the economy grows for everyone my dude. I can only imagine what kind of sociopath celebrates wages going by that, unemployment reaching new sky high and almost breaking the entire nation for years and claim succes after a 2% gdp growth after having collapsed with austerity.
    I'm not celebrating anything. I'm saying how come we sponsor their party when they get more money per gdp than we do? I should by all rights be the one that's pissed off. Not defending why I help people that get more money than I do.

    You, as an American, simply do not have the insight nor the right to make these kinds of grand accusations. That post? Me asking you politely to shut up.
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-09-03 at 07:18 PM.
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  20. #8100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    More informed than the german it seems....

    Whatevee tho, go continue justifying how there was no other option despite other unions managing much better without throwing states into debt servitude all because certain countries cant have their banks face consequences.
    I have yet to see you come up with an argument that can be in the most generous description of the word called informed.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

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