View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #8101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.
    You were the one who asked to plunder nations to cover the debt of one nation (by bailing out banks)

  2. #8102
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Yeah, but Slant - what's your broader point?

    Tough love works? That's stating the obvious. And at what social cost to Greece? Or is that cost insignificant in respect to the health of the eurozone as a whole?

    The eurosceptic in me would say that the rest of Europe is getting a bit fed up with Germany sitting on top of its budget surplus and preaching to the rest of us.

    I hear you might get tax cuts this year? That's nice.

  3. #8103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Yeah, but Slant - what's your broader point?

    Tough love works? That's stating the obvious. And at what social cost to Greece? Or is that cost insignificant in respect to the health of the eurozone as a whole?

    The eurosceptic in me would say that the rest of Europe is getting a bit fed up with Germany sitting on top of its budget surplus and preaching to the rest of us.

    I hear you might get tax cuts this year? That's nice.
    My broader point is that it's about time people stopped shitting on Germany for actually trying to contribute to the European project and keep a country out of the Venezuela zone of solvency, taking in refugees that nobody else wants (from a war Germany had nothing to do with for once) for backing tiny ass countries with their megalomaniac wishes despite them barely having more population than our largest cities...

    Seriously, it's getting old. I'm going to stop justifying anything those guys throw at me from this point on forward. Y'all gonna call me arrogant bastard or something, but I'm done with it. I don't need to justify Germany doing the shit that we do. I pay for it with my tax money. And when in doubt, I pay for Germany actually having the big clout it has and throwing it around in the EU's interest, because ultimately, that is Germany's best interest. To have a strong and cooperative EU based in part on the principle of solidarity. If you don't like that, get the fuck out like Britain does. And if that means everyone's fucking off, that's fine by me too. Then we'll talk about just Germany's best interest. Which pretty much means Germany doesn't put money in a pot to protect those tiny ass countries from basically being bought out by either Russia or the US. Yes, the same tiny countries that keep dictating Germany to let Greece rot, like Finland tried to do.

    Seriously, some people need to get their act together and think about the big picture. Greece, as dramatic as it was, is not the main issue here. We're faced with Russia in the East, openly grabbing parts of countries and nobody defying them. We're dealing with China in the far east doing some economic shenannigans that may or may not be damaging to us in the long run and the US abandoning everything the West stands for. We are alone. You can face it as tiny ass country with 5 million inhabitants and hope it passes you by because you're literally on the butt of the European continent, or you can try to work together and show that there is an alternative.

    Finland knows how well the "head in the sand" strategy works. Cost them Karelia, that strategy. And they were lucky in that they basically forced Russia into a stalemate when by all rights they should've been steamrolled. Much Sisu...
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  4. #8104
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    My broader point is that it's about time people stopped shitting on Germany for actually trying to contribute to the European project and keep a country out of the Venezuela zone of solvency, taking in refugees that nobody else wants (from a war Germany had nothing to do with for once) for backing tiny ass countries with their megalomaniac wishes despite them barely having more population than our largest cities...

    Seriously, it's getting old. I'm going to stop justifying anything those guys throw at me from this point on forward. Y'all gonna call me arrogant bastard or something, but I'm done with it. I don't need to justify Germany doing the shit that we do. I pay for it with my tax money. And when in doubt, I pay for Germany actually having the big clout it has and throwing it around in the EU's interest, because ultimately, that is Germany's best interest. To have a strong and cooperative EU based in part on the principle of solidarity. If you don't like that, get the fuck out like Britain does. And if that means everyone's fucking off, that's fine by me too. Then we'll talk about just Germany's best interest. Which pretty much means Germany doesn't put money in a pot to protect those tiny ass countries from basically being bought out by either Russia or the US. Yes, the same tiny countries that keep dictating Germany to let Greece rot, like Finland tried to do.

    Seriously, some people need to get their act together and think about the big picture. Greece, as dramatic as it was, is not the main issue here. We're faced with Russia in the East, openly grabbing parts of countries and nobody defying them. We're dealing with China in the far east doing some economic shenannigans that may or may not be damaging to us in the long run and the US abandoning everything the West stands for. We are alone. You can face it as tiny ass country with 5 million inhabitants and hope it passes you by because you're literally on the butt of the European continent, or you can try to work together and show that there is an alternative.

    Finland knows how well the "head in the sand" strategy works. Cost them Karelia, that strategy. And they were lucky in that they basically forced Russia into a stalemate when by all rights they should've been steamrolled. Much Sisu...
    Hmms... I'm not convinced.

    This "solidarity"...

    I'm sorry - but I fail to see much "solidarity" with respect to the pain caused by austerity inflicted on Greece and the benefits enjoyed as a result of Germany's budget surplus.

    Yes, yes, yes... Greece's spending was unsustainable. We know that. But they should never have been allowed to join the euro.

    I think many of us can agree that a united front in terms of foreign policy would be beneficial e.g., Russia / China etc.

    But for me, and it keeps coming back to this: without fiscal union the eurozone is shafted. And fiscal union is never going to happen.

    Macron can waffle on about us all being "Europeans" as much he likes... it doesn't strike a chord with the EU public. How & when is this necessary fiscal union going to take place?

    In the meantime, back to Brexit, the UK has made the unwise decision to remove ourselves from the debate.

    At least until the second referendum...
    Last edited by Nigel Tufnel; 2018-09-03 at 10:16 PM. Reason: typos

  5. #8105
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Hmms... I'm not convinced.

    This "solidarity"...

    I'm sorry - but I fail to see much "solidarity" with respect to the pain caused by austerity inflicted on Greece and the benefits enjoyed as a result of Germany's budget surplus.

    Yes, yes, yes... Greece's spending was unsustainable. We know that. But they should never have been allowed to join the euro.

    I think many of us can agree that a united front in terms of foreign policy would be beneficial e.g., Russia / China etc.

    But for me, and it keeps coming back to this: without fiscal union the eurozone is shafted. And fiscal union is never going to happen.

    Macron can waffle on about us all being "Europeans" as much he likes... it doesn't strike a chord with the EU public. How & when is this necessary fiscal union going to take place?

    In the meantime, back to Brexit, the UK has made the unwise decision to remove ourselves from the debate.

    At least until the second referendum...
    I kinda agree with the first part. I kinda disagree with the second part. The EU is a new "thing". Humanity hasn't tried something quite like this before. The rulebook isn't written. So we're making the rules as we go along. And as far as fiscal cooperation goes, we're not actually as far off it as you think. So the countries collect taxes, but then a bit of that gets paid into a pot. And from that pot, the EU pays a lot of stuff to the countries (or directly to projects in those countries).

    Is it a fiscal union? Nah, not yet. Is it totally unlike a proto-fiscal thing? Not really, it's pretty close, albeit very crude and rudimentary. But "never" is such a strong and absolute term. I wouldn't subscribe to that.

    May just rejected the idea of a second referendum yesterday once again. What makes you think there will be a second referendum?
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-09-03 at 10:27 PM.
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  6. #8106
    Quote Originally Posted by Trust Trader Mittens View Post
    Have you seen debt to gdp of greece before austerity and now? If austerity was a solution to prevent massive debt it has been a total failure.
    Well, not like I said that it was a measure to prevent massive debt then, isn't it? I merely noted that the US, being the financial giant it is, has an easier time living with massive debt than Greece, which allows it to be more liberal with debt-financing their way out of a crisis. There are other factors, too, but I am trying to keep it simple here.

    If you need an US-based example, look at Puerto Rico. Even before the natural disaster, they were in the grasp of hedgefunds. Heck, afaik, they even have a mandate to pay back foreign debtors first and foremost, even before spending money on their own services to an extent. I am no expert on that matter, but I do know that they were unable to just boost their way out of crisis due to debt.

  7. #8107
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    What makes you think there will be a second referendum?
    I wasn't being serious I am hoping to get a rise from a Brexiteer.

    God only knows what's going to happen - it's a complete mess. And much fun needs to be had at our politicians' expense e.g., BJ today:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...e-gone-battle/

    Edit... sorry - paywall:

    So it’s ding ding! Seconds out! And we begin the final round of that international slug fest, the Brexit negotiations. Out of their corners come Dominic Raab and Michel Barnier, shrugging their shoulders and beating their chests – and I just hope you aren’t one of those trusting souls who still thinks it could really go either way. The fix is in. The whole thing is about as pre-ordained as a bout between Giant Haystacks and Big Daddy; and in this case, I am afraid, the inevitable outcome is a victory for the EU, with the UK lying flat on the canvas with 12 stars circling symbolically over our semi-conscious head.

    I suppose there may be some aspects of the Chequers proposals that they pretend not to like. They may puff about “cherry picking” the single market. There may be some confected groaning and twanging of leotards when it comes to the discussion on free movement. But the reality is that in this negotiation the EU has so far taken every important trick. The UK has agreed to hand over £40 billion of taxpayers’ money for two thirds of diddly squat.

    In adopting the Chequers proposals, we have gone into battle with the white flag fluttering over our leading tank. If we continue on this basis we will throw away most of the advantages of Brexit. By agreeing to a “common rulebook” with the EU – over which we have no control – we are making it impossible for the UK to be more competitive, to innovate, to deviate, to initiate, and we are ruling out major free trade deals.

    If we go ahead with the Chequers proposals, we are forswearing the project of Global Britain – so splendidly articulated by the Prime Minister in her Lancaster House speech of January 17 2017 – and abandoning the notion of the UK as a proud independent economic actor. We will remain in the EU taxi; but this time locked in the boot, with absolutely no say on the destination. We won’t have taken back control – we will have lost control. We will serve as a terrible warning to any other EU country thinking of changing its relationship with Brussels: that even the UK, the fifth biggest economy in the world, was unable to break free of the gravitational pull of the EU, and forced to sue for humiliating terms.

    Of course I hope that the PM will still change course – and rediscover the elan and dynamism of Lancaster House. With more than two years until the end of the implementation period, there is still ample time to save Brexit. If we are to do so, we must go back to the issue of the Northern Irish border, which has been so ingeniously manipulated – both by Brussels and parts of the UK Government – so as to keep Britain effectively in the customs union and in the single market.


    What a joke. What a f'ing joke.

    He is a dishonest, self-serving, devious, arrogant, narcissistic, creamy-topped, muppet.

    I swear to god, I will put bricks through my local Tory’s window if he topples May and becomes PM with no GE.

    Fundamentally, I think the UK leaving the EU is a colossal mistake on many, many levels.

    However, I remain sceptical of unrealistic goals set by europhile politicians that are removed from the reality of peoples' everyday existence.
    Last edited by Nigel Tufnel; 2018-09-03 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #8108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    My broader point is that it's about time people stopped shitting on Germany for actually trying to contribute to the European project and keep a country out of the Venezuela zone of solvency, taking in refugees that nobody else wants (from a war Germany had nothing to do with for once) for backing tiny ass countries with their megalomaniac wishes despite them barely having more population than our largest cities...
    And i find that attitude insulting and anti democratic

    Not that i am a fan of shitting on Germany generally speaking

  9. #8109
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Yeah, but Slant - what's your broader point?

    Tough love works? That's stating the obvious. And at what social cost to Greece? Or is that cost insignificant in respect to the health of the eurozone as a whole?

    The eurosceptic in me would say that the rest of Europe is getting a bit fed up with Germany sitting on top of its budget surplus and preaching to the rest of us.

    I hear you might get tax cuts this year? That's nice.
    The point? That you will get on your bended knee and praise the EU Commission, you will love every blessed thing they say and do and you will remember "The EU PROTECTS!"
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  10. #8110
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    However, I remain sceptical of unrealistic goals set by europhile politicians that are removed from the reality of peoples' everyday existence.
    At least that's a position where one can have a debate. The absolute rejection of anything EU, however, I'm not able to talk with. No idea what to say. Okay, so you think Satan himself dreamt up the EU. Good for you! I mean what else is there to say?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xarkan View Post
    And i find that attitude insulting and anti democratic

    Not that i am a fan of shitting on Germany generally speaking
    It is insulting, it is undemocratic... until you realise that we do respect tiny countries and we listen to their input, no matter how small they are. You're missing my point. My point is that we are backing them and their interests. And we never complain. We don't want praise for it, either, because as far as we are concerned, that is living democracy in the heart of the EU.

    But is it too much to ask not to be shat on for that? Don't answer me, you already did. But look at the people that have literally nothing but hate to contribute to these discussions. I'm sick of it.

    The really stupid thing? I'm not even as much a Europhile as people think I am. I have a lot of points I'd like to change about the EU. But next to the hatemongering EU-phobes, everyone that doesn't immediately gets a pitchfork out looks like a lunatic EU-phile. And that's stupid, because suddenly the discussion is not about how we can improve the EU, now it's people like me having to justify why the fuck we prefer the EU over world wars in the first place. As if that even needs justification.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The point? That you will get on your bended knee and praise the EU Commission, you will love every blessed thing they say and do and you will remember "The EU PROTECTS!"
    Case in point... pathetic shit really. No idea why people like him even post here. Must be an acute and near fatal case of boredom. It's not even that he can expect some sort of respectful response to that.
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-09-03 at 11:31 PM.
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  11. #8111
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Hmms... I'm not convinced.

    This "solidarity"...

    I'm sorry - but I fail to see much "solidarity" with respect to the pain caused by austerity inflicted on Greece and the benefits enjoyed as a result of Germany's budget surplus.

    Yes, yes, yes... Greece's spending was unsustainable. We know that. But they should never have been allowed to join the euro.

    I think many of us can agree that a united front in terms of foreign policy would be beneficial e.g., Russia / China etc.

    But for me, and it keeps coming back to this: without fiscal union the eurozone is shafted. And fiscal union is never going to happen.

    Macron can waffle on about us all being "Europeans" as much he likes... it doesn't strike a chord with the EU public. How & when is this necessary fiscal union going to take place?

    In the meantime, back to Brexit, the UK has made the unwise decision to remove ourselves from the debate.

    At least until the second referendum...
    They wouldn't have joined if they haven't hid their debt.
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  12. #8112
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post

    Finland knows how well the "head in the sand" strategy works. Cost them Karelia, that strategy. And they were lucky in that they basically forced Russia into a stalemate when by all rights they should've been steamrolled. Much Sisu...
    The alternative to that armed resistance you call a "head in the sand" strategy would have cost them a lot more than Karelia, especially with how little international support they received. Soviets even had a puppet government of communist exiles from the civil war ready to go from day one of the war. It were never their intention to be satisfied with "just" the initial territorial demands.

  13. #8113
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    They wouldn't have joined if they haven't hid their debt.
    So obviously we should have just stood in front of the shitshow that was greece in 2008, shook our hands and iterate: they should never have joined.

    That would've helped...

    And watch as the cascade first pulls down all the souther countries, and then even countries with much better standing heavily investing in these countries until the whole EU burns down.

    That would've showed them!

    Man do i love to get these Captain Obvious hints from Americans who began the whole financial crisis with their unregulated lending...

  14. #8114
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    At least that's a position where one can have a debate. The absolute rejection of anything EU, however, I'm not able to talk with. No idea what to say. Okay, so you think Satan himself dreamt up the EU. Good for you! I mean what else is there to say?

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is insulting, it is undemocratic... until you realise that we do respect tiny countries and we listen to their input, no matter how small they are. You're missing my point. My point is that we are backing them and their interests. And we never complain. We don't want praise for it, either, because as far as we are concerned, that is living democracy in the heart of the EU.

    But is it too much to ask not to be shat on for that? Don't answer me, you already did. But look at the people that have literally nothing but hate to contribute to these discussions. I'm sick of it.

    The really stupid thing? I'm not even as much a Europhile as people think I am. I have a lot of points I'd like to change about the EU. But next to the hatemongering EU-phobes, everyone that doesn't immediately gets a pitchfork out looks like a lunatic EU-phile. And that's stupid, because suddenly the discussion is not about how we can improve the EU, now it's people like me having to justify why the fuck we prefer the EU over world wars in the first place. As if that even needs justification.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Case in point... pathetic shit really. No idea why people like him even post here. Must be an acute and near fatal case of boredom. It's not even that he can expect some sort of respectful response to that.
    I find that the same phenomenon keeps occurring with other issues as well - most prominently immigration. The loudest people, especially on this forum, have so rabidly extreme positions on issues that even moderates that have wishes for reformation on the issue are forced into the "pro X" side. Common ground can only be found by those willing to compromise. But populism, which is still on the rise and fairly evident in the Brexit campaign as well, rejects that notion. "Us or them" is a direct result of populists offering "whatever you want, no matter the feasibility/consequence". And as long as the British government seeks to appease that populism, it simply cannot come to an agreement with the EU. Full stop.

  15. #8115
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    The alternative to that armed resistance you call a "head in the sand" strategy would have cost them a lot more than Karelia, especially with how little international support they received. Soviets even had a puppet government of communist exiles from the civil war ready to go from day one of the war. It were never their intention to be satisfied with "just" the initial territorial demands.
    The armed resistance wasn't what I meant, what I meant was the time before the war and not clearly aligning with one or the other side. That's mighty dangerous.
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  16. #8116
    Deleted
    fuck me this thread goes in circles are we back onto greece.

  17. #8117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    I find that the same phenomenon keeps occurring with other issues as well - most prominently immigration. The loudest people, especially on this forum, have so rabidly extreme positions on issues that even moderates that have wishes for reformation on the issue are forced into the "pro X" side. Common ground can only be found by those willing to compromise. But populism, which is still on the rise and fairly evident in the Brexit campaign as well, rejects that notion. "Us or them" is a direct result of populists offering "whatever you want, no matter the feasibility/consequence". And as long as the British government seeks to appease that populism, it simply cannot come to an agreement with the EU. Full stop.
    And I think this is the actual conclusion to this. You've really explained everything that is wrong with Brexit and these negotiations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    fuck me this thread goes in circles are we back onto greece.
    They'll use anything to hate on the EU and Germany. :shrug:
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  18. #8118
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And I think this is the actual conclusion to this. You've really explained everything that is wrong with Brexit and these negotiations.
    They are politicians. Their primary interest is reelection. Why would they ever stop appeasing populism if the people do not make it deadly clear that it will cost them their jobs?

  19. #8119
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So obviously we should have just stood in front of the shitshow that was greece in 2008, shook our hands and iterate: they should never have joined.

    That would've helped...

    And watch as the cascade first pulls down all the souther countries, and then even countries with much better standing heavily investing in these countries until the whole EU burns down.

    That would've showed them!

    Man do i love to get these Captain Obvious hints from Americans who began the whole financial crisis with their unregulated lending...
    Yep, all of this ^
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  20. #8120
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Man do i love to get these Captain Obvious hints from Americans who began the whole financial crisis with their unregulated lending...
    I'm not American and, yes, I can criticise the EU for its lack of due diligence when it came to admitting Greece to the Eurozone.

    You disagree with this statement?

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