View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #8181
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.



    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    This guy has been wrong so many times it's actually physically painful to listen to.

    EU is playing by the rules it is stuck to by the WTO. What should it say to get the UK happy "Yes we'll put a hard border between us and Ireland."?

  2. #8182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.

    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    You're dishonest.

    Let's look at the Irish problem: 1. The UK wants to control its borders, which means a hard border to the EU, so they can control who comes in and who doesn't. 2. The UK wants to keep the Union intact, which means, same rules for Northern Ireland as for Great Britain.

    This isn't the EU looking bad. This is all homemade. The EU hasn't even said anything at this stage and already it's a paradox. Now, add to that that the EU has made it clear and played with open cards from the beginning that the single market only works with those four freedoms. It's not that they said it to spite the British, it's the whole concept of the single market. It's called single market because it's a single market. For everything. If you took people out of it, you would have two markets, one for people and one for everything else. By definition that would mean the end of the single market.

    Please, tell me again how the EU is under pressure or "playing hardball". Go ahead, make my day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    This guy has been wrong so many times it's actually physically painful to listen to.

    EU is playing by the rules it is stuck to by the WTO. What should it say to get the UK happy "Yes we'll put a hard border between us and Ireland."?
    That is actually the wet dream of the crazy Brexiteers. See, the logic is this... keep this impasse up until someone even crazier suggests that the EU will have to erect a border within its boundaries to seal off against the giant leak in RoI. And then... this is the plot twist, simply reunite Ireland. Only, under British rule.

    I know, I know... civil war, Irish independence and all that jazz. But you see, you're dealing with the batshit crazy here, so that's not really an issue. You can just wish away anything you don't like.

    I mean, it is fun to think like that... let lose of all rationality and just be free...
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  3. #8183
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That is actually the wet dream of the crazy Brexiteers. See, the logic is this... keep this impasse up until someone even crazier suggests that the EU will have to erect a border within its boundaries to seal off against the giant leak in RoI. And then... this is the plot twist, simply reunite Ireland. Only, under British rule.

    I know, I know... civil war, Irish independence and all that jazz. But you see, you're dealing with the batshit crazy here, so that's not really an issue. You can just wish away anything you don't like.

    I mean, it is fun to think like that... let lose of all rationality and just be free...
    It's true and it's insanity. I also know many who think this way, just like to get them to bring out their insanity though for all to see just to bring down what ever facade they have when supporting this. Be it basically dreams of empire of some, I don't like dem foreigners for others. Some just too proud to admit their mistake or some kind of facist ideals with a few more.

  4. #8184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It's true and it's insanity. I also know many who think this way, just like to get them to bring out their insanity though for all to see just to bring down what ever facade they have when supporting this. Be it basically dreams of empire of some, I don't like dem foreigners for others. Some just too proud to admit their mistake or some kind of facist ideals with a few more.
    So, basically... anything goes from here then. This Wednesday is going to be very, very interesting on so many aspects.
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  5. #8185
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, basically... anything goes from here then. This Wednesday is going to be very, very interesting on so many aspects.
    Do you think EU will play "Good Cop." for lack of better word and extend to November just to show they're not at fault. Or do you think like I think they should essentially if nothing is even close to an agreement on Northern Ireland just go out and say "We tried our best, we offered everything we could. But May just isn't going to budge." (in a more diplomatic way of course.)

  6. #8186
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.

  7. #8187
    Quote Originally Posted by Malacrass View Post
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.
    That's the thing, outside what the UK media tries to push the countries in the EU are mostly happy with how things are and actually want gradual closer integration. Sure Poland, Hungary and Italy might get uppity at times, but the people don't want to leave. Hell their issues are with things instigated outside of the EU or strongman who isn't as popular as anti eu people want to push trying to make damages to Democracy in said country.

    Also the EU basically put their position in play less than a month after the vote. They got together, made compromises, realised the laws and duties they had to follow and went "Here's our position." and basically sat on one end of the table waiting for TWO FULL YEARS before May came back and said "Hi, this is chequers, we want all the good stuff without the responsibilities. Also we demand you break your 4 pillars." (Basically think Texas ceding from US and telling US that to get a good deal from our side, break the bill of rights.).

    The EU said no and threw it out immediately (although some people think it only happened couple weeks ago), then there's the issue of Northern Ireland which has been said a lot. Which in short, May wants out of Common Market/customs union, but keep good friday. Which physically just can not happen without basically Northern Ireland being treated as an external part of EU, like say Gibralta or Falklands. Her party (Conservative and Unionist Party) won't allow it, DUP who has May by the Ba.. Ovaries won't allow it.

  8. #8188
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.

    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    If the EU compromises, on it's core pillars no less, it'll look incredibly weak and useless to all current EU members and rest of the world.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  9. #8189
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    If the EU compromises, on it's core pillars no less, it'll look incredibly weak and useless to all current EU members and rest of the world.
    A no deal makes the EU look a bit stupid, losing its core pillars make it Look like a pathetic, grovelling child. If they can give up fundamental freedoms here they will be under pressure to give them up elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malacrass View Post
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.
    That's probably more likely to happen when we get to future trade arrangemwnts rather than the divorce arrangement stage we are at now. French farmers will want one thing, Danish fisherman another and German industry yet another. That is when the UK will be able to play members off against each other. At the moment the UK can't get past how they relate to the EU as a whole going forward so it's fairly easy for the EU to stay United.

  10. #8190
    Quote Originally Posted by Soxoffender View Post
    Privatisation has been steadily increasing since The [Tory] Health and Social Care Act in 2012 - it's really a matter of the scale and speed of change. Various EU nations have been interested in limiting access for US healthcare giants to national markets, which is why TTIP included exemptions for national healthcare markets. Even if a future government does want to keep up those companies out, they'll have less ability to do so when outside of a trade block.

    The Tories have been underfunding the NHS:
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...h/nhs-funding/
    https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

    And May has backed the Naylor Report's plan to sell off NHS assets to hide this funding gap, despite serious reservations in many quarters:
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-huge-11941502
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs...f-gathers-pace

    1. Cameron gambled that the Scottish Nationalists would lose their referendum but it was a risk.
    2. Voices were warning before the Brexit that the GFA may be at risk if we left the EU and yet Dave still put party before country and offered the Brexit ref to appease Tory Eurosceptics and steal votes off UKIP.
    3. Rather than take the sensible approach and take time to formulate a consensus plan with a proper mandate, May triggered A50 and set in motion a legal process she couldn't stop with consequences she couldn't foresee.

    You and I disagree on NI but I do think you read my initial NI point too strongly. I think it's "plausible" but not that it's nailed on or anything like that.
    Non-NHS provided care spending has remained steady for the last four years and as a share of the overall budget expenditure has decreased in the last year. One area where spending on independent providers has increased is community services, such as community nursing, health visiting and occupational therapy.

    However despite the involvement of private sector providers the services that they provide to the NHS are still free to the end user - this will not change.

    If the government wants to keep private health providers out of the NHS they will it has nothing to do with the EU.

    The Tories have been underfunding lots of things this is due to monetary constraints rather than choice. When they took office the UK was spending £152billion per year more than it receives in the taxation the reality is that this is unsustainable and can only be addressed with spending cuts or tax rises. Whether the choices they have made over the last eight years are the correct ones is another debate entirely but to their credit we are now almost at a point where we are not borrowing more than we receive in tax.

    Selling non-performing and/or expensive to maintain assets seems like a sensible suggestion to me, and is common in the private sector, especially when the NHS is desperate of cash.

    The structuring of who provides healthcare within the NHS may change over the years but the NHS is going nowhere.

    It is plausible that Ireland will reunify at some point in time however it is not plausible that, as claimed, it will do so in the near future or as a direct result of Brexit.

  11. #8191
    https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Berlin-b...e20674329.html

    The German Government is preparing for a hard Brexit. Legislation is being introduced into the cabinet that would increase the number of customs officers and civil servants in other sectors that are connected to this topic. That's being done this week.

    In the meantime, they hint that tonight nothing new will happen. May will summarize the current state to the media and Barnier will inform the heads of the 27 member states. The summary will be that Ireland is not solved and the heads of state will have to decide whether to give May a special summit in November or delay the next summit for the regularly scheduled december summit, giving May precious little time to punch whatever the outcome is through the commons (and have the member states ratify it if needed).
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  12. #8192
    Selling non-performing and/or expensive to maintain assets seems like a sensible suggestion to me, and is common in the private sector, especially when the NHS is desperate of cash.
    The government (historically all UK governments) has a history of getting poor value for these sorts of assets (e.g. Royal Mail) and campaigners are saying that plenty of them are still needed, they're just not in a fit state to use right now because of underfunding.

    The Tories have been underfunding lots of things this is due to monetary constraints rather than choice. When they took office the UK was spending £152billion per year more than it receives in the taxation the reality is that this is unsustainable and can only be addressed with spending cuts or tax rises. Whether the choices they have made over the last eight years are the correct ones is another debate entirely but to their credit we are now almost at a point where we are not borrowing more than we receive in tax.
    If you believe that austerity has been necessary rather than a choice then I doubt we've got much we're going to agree on. Nice to have a disagreement with someone on here that didn't end in name-calling though.

  13. #8193
    Quote Originally Posted by Soxoffender View Post
    The government (historically all UK governments) has a history of getting poor value for these sorts of assets (e.g. Royal Mail) and campaigners are saying that plenty of them are still needed, they're just not in a fit state to use right now because of underfunding.
    I'm not sure if UK governments being a bit crap at selling off assets is a compelling argument for the NHS to retain a certain non-performing assets or those that they no longer require. However it is important to remember that this is just the recommendations of a report and is not, at present, happening.

    The NHS most certainly needs more money but I think it is a long way from being not in a fit state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soxoffender View Post
    If you believe that austerity has been necessary rather than a choice then I doubt we've got much we're going to agree on. Nice to have a disagreement with someone on here that didn't end in name-calling though.
    Austerity was most certainly a choice whether there were better more suited choices to deal with the deficit available at the time is open to debate but ultimately there is no way to prove one or the other if this is/was the case. There is certainly a case for not cutting spending and taking on additional debt however this all this debt needs servicing which at present costs around £48billion per year. It is also worth noting that the last time the UK tried to spend its way out of financial difficulties it resulted in an IMF bailout and that it was the running the economy at deficit that left us so unprepared for the financial crisis.

  14. #8194
    Quite honestly the negotiations should be like this tonight.

    EU: Prime Minister May are you willing to budge on either the Northern Ireland issue or the Customs union/Single Market.

    If May says no to both, then just walk away as simply put without that kind of budge nothing can be done. Show the world how you tried, were patient, while the UK were the ones being unreasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Some of the disasters that no deal will give us.

  15. #8195
    I am Murloc!
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    https://video.consilium.europa.eu/en...7-46c7790f8abe

    something live to watch

    update: meeting of EU leaders started at 7:36 PM CEDT
    Last edited by ranzino; 2018-10-17 at 05:58 PM.

  16. #8196

  17. #8197
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    You should look at those : https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/bre...ess-notices_en
    That being said the french papers merely state that without other arrangements, the UK will become a third country which will be treated as such.
    So in this case there will be checks, customs, visas etc.
    It's a bit sad it comes as a surprise at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    https://video.consilium.europa.eu/en...7-46c7790f8abe

    something live to watch

    update: meeting of EU leaders started at 7:36 PM CEDT
    I had popcorn ready and they stopped streaming before the meeting

  18. #8198
    I am Murloc!
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    btw: dinner is served



    And now for the news:
    May is considering the extension of transition period. but can she serve that at home ??
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...38560061292544

    May is also adamant about "take it our leave it" on brexit bill. there's no meaningful vote on brexit, if she has a say in it
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ments-says-may

    DUP is not happy about extended transition.
    Last edited by ranzino; 2018-10-17 at 08:34 PM.

  19. #8199
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...57861812207617

    If this is true then it's no deal, no november, nothing.

  20. #8200
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    So...

    Is anyone else going to get rations in?

    I mean, apparently, it's all going to be fine so there's no need.
    You can't really dust for vomit.

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