View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #8661
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    So what is next ? another week of rambings in UK before nothing happens at negotiations ?
    or is T. May now in a better position to silence the unruly tories and to get some stuff done ?

  2. #8662
    From what I've gathered Team Hard Brexit failed to show the strength to unseat May so that should in theory give her more room to maneuver.
    It doesn't mean she actually wants to as there is still the good chance she somehow thinks that Chequers is viable, or that she possesses that particular brand of idiocy where she'd rather go down in flames than concede defeat to the EU - Not saying pride is always bad, but personal pride for a leader at the expense of their nation deserves very little respect.

    Also she wasn't humiliated at Salzburg.

  3. #8663
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I've bolded the part that I would see as critical to giving the Tories as way out. But I would go so far as to say that any reform would have to include a properly defined and structured Article 50; one that has sensible timeframes, and clearly laid out possible outcomes in line with the 4 freedoms. So that the next time that a country comes along and says they are having a referendum on leaving, any campaign for such an outcome wouldn't be able to lie about what kind of deal was possible.

    Oh, and I would make it explicit that activation of the clause has NO means of reversing it. You activate it, you leave. You want to come back later, you have to negotiate as a new entrant.
    The 2 years are a sensible timeframe. The whole point of Article 50 isn't to trigger it and then find out what you want. The whole idea is that you have sensible people in power that prepare your country before they press the trigger. Ideally, the 2 years are the years in which policies are implemented and separation is enacted, not when it is being negotiated. That is the "2 year separation period" that can be extended. It aggravates me to no end that British politicians never read the shit.
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  4. #8664
    Wish Sweden leave also

  5. #8665
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    I would just like to point out, every nation has a vast majority of idiots, it's not just us in the UK.

    At some point in history every nation has made some mistake led by populism, by people voting against there own interests out of either fear or blind stupidity.

    Just because it's happening to us today, doesn't mean it can't happen to you tomorrow.

    Something to bear in mind.
    Should not have voted that majority in, should not have maintained this majority. Should have opposed it more before, during and afterwards.

    I mean its one thing to make a mistake led by populism but this is a mistake of more than 2 years where stubbornness is winning from common sense. If you expect sympathy with these kind of politics the UK population breath life into you are sorely mistaken and yes i'm fully aware a brexit is damaging to both parties involved.

  6. #8666
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Should not have voted that majority in, should not have maintained this majority. Should have opposed it more before, during and afterwards.

    I mean its one thing to make a mistake led by populism but this is a mistake of more than 2 years where stubbornness is winning from common sense. If you expect sympathy with these kind of politics the UK population breath life into you are sorely mistaken and yes i'm fully aware a brexit is damaging to both parties involved.
    lol, calm down Mr Schadenfreude. Take a leaf out of your own book. The hatred and vitriol in your posts is comical.
    You can't really dust for vomit.

  7. #8667
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Should not have voted that majority in, should not have maintained this majority. Should have opposed it more before, during and afterwards.

    I mean its one thing to make a mistake led by populism but this is a mistake of more than 2 years where stubbornness is winning from common sense. If you expect sympathy with these kind of politics the UK population breath life into you are sorely mistaken and yes i'm fully aware a brexit is damaging to both parties involved.
    Who should we have voted in then? Corbyn and his ilk? Corbyn whose more of a Brexiteer than May? Or perhaps we could have gone with the limp dick Liberal Democrats, who'd have gladly taken up the challenge, and then given up within a month because it's too difficult.

    We've been fucked since the referendum result, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand British politics.

    This is a mistake leading from the referendum, nothing more. The last general election doesn't matter. The coalition with the DUP doesn't matter.

    I don't expect or want sympathy from you, what i'm telling you is that you can't sit there and say "Lol fuck the Brits" whilst also ignoring the fact that every country in the EU is currently experiencing a surge in right wing populism.

    I would say you might be next, but who really gives a shit if Belgium leaves anyway.

  8. #8668
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Should not have voted that majority in, should not have maintained this majority. Should have opposed it more before, during and afterwards.

    I mean its one thing to make a mistake led by populism but this is a mistake of more than 2 years where stubbornness is winning from common sense. If you expect sympathy with these kind of politics the UK population breath life into you are sorely mistaken and yes i'm fully aware a brexit is damaging to both parties involved.
    58% of the nation voted against the conservative party. We're stuck with a voting system in which has happened a few times before as low as 35% of the nation can get you as high as 55% of parliament, effectively full control over how the country is run.

    Or even at a local level one area had a person elected MP with less than 25% of the vote.

    https://youtu.be/r9rGX91rq5I

  9. #8669
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    58% of the nation voted against the conservative party. We're stuck with a voting system in which has happened a few times before as low as 35% of the nation can get you as high as 55% of parliament, effectively full control over how the country is run.

    Or even at a local level one area had a person elected MP with less than 25% of the vote.

    https://youtu.be/r9rGX91rq5I
    In fairness, Acidbaron's exasperation with the inherent conservatism displayed by the UK electorate is understandable. In 2011, 68% voted no to a system of proportional representation, which, although flawed, would have at least been a step in the right direction.

    My problem with Acidbaron's stance is that that the poster seems to reside in a world where: the Austrian Freedom Party, Vlaams Blok, Danish People's Party, National Front (lol Le Pen finished second to Macron), Viktor Orbán, Lega Nord etc. etc. (I'm just listing in alphabetical order of countries) simply don't exist. Nor do the conditions in which they've come into existence and thrived exist either.

    Does the poster really want the Nigel Tufnel list of Brexit blame again? Here it is:

    Nu Labour’s failure to address localised pressures on infrastructure resulting from large scale economic migration from Eastern Europe in the 00s. 10%
    Financial crash & austerity. The failure of trickle-down economics. 20%
    UKIP / Farage / right-wing press. 20%
    EU’s ever closer union. 10%
    Cameron playing party politics. 30%
    Corbyn’s Labour’s euroscepticism. 10%


    It is not straightforward.

    I'm intrigued as to how the bigoted Belgian is going to respond to this.
    You can't really dust for vomit.

  10. #8670
    It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

    Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.

  11. #8671
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

    Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.
    Hmmms. Personally, I think that's crediting too much pro-PR sentiment to the population.

    I voted yes as a step in the right direction. I'm not convinced a large number of people who voted no did so because they felt the proposed system fell short of full PR.
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  12. #8672
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It wasn't a system of PR it was basically a system that's essentially "Let's keep FPTP but call it different and make it confusing.". Everyone saw through the Tory games who were for PR and either spoiled, or voted yes.

    Pretty much though there is only 1 acceptable solution. Full PR, no some half arsed rubbish. Also the whole "Keep politics home because you can have an MP." is rubbish when the MP for most people is 100% against everything you stand for.
    No-one really cares one way or the other about PR which is why most people couldn't be bothered to vote in the 2011 referendum and why no-one outside of obscure youtube videos has mentioned it since.

    A few years ago you might have had a point when Lib Dem voters did want PR but as soon as they found out what being the junior party in power actually meant they decided that they would not vote Lib Dem in future.

  13. #8673
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Hmmms. Personally, I think that's crediting too much pro-PR sentiment to the population.

    I voted yes as a step in the right direction. I'm not convinced a large number of people who voted no did so because they felt the proposed system fell short of full PR.
    Oh I didn't say they voted no, more that they didn't vote due to frustration on the stupid idea, voted yes or spoiled their ballot in protest of it.

  14. #8674
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    *whispers*

    IDD with either of you. It's complicated.

    Please can we present a united front against the sadistic Belgian?

    Ta very much.
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  15. #8675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    My problem with Acidbaron's stance is that that the poster seems to reside in a world where: the Austrian Freedom Party, Vlaams Blok, Danish People's Party, National Front (lol Le Pen finished second to Macron), Viktor Orbán, Lega Nord etc. etc. (I'm just listing in alphabetical order of countries) simply don't exist. Nor do the conditions in which they've come into existence and thrived exist either.
    The Danish Peoples Party may have found a party that will go to lengths they would not dare go. The upcoming Danish Party The new Right

  16. #8676
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Who should we have voted in then? Corbyn and his ilk? Corbyn whose more of a Brexiteer than May? Or perhaps we could have gone with the limp dick Liberal Democrats, who'd have gladly taken up the challenge, and then given up within a month because it's too difficult.

    We've been fucked since the referendum result, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand British politics.

    This is a mistake leading from the referendum, nothing more. The last general election doesn't matter. The coalition with the DUP doesn't matter.

    I don't expect or want sympathy from you, what i'm telling you is that you can't sit there and say "Lol fuck the Brits" whilst also ignoring the fact that every country in the EU is currently experiencing a surge in right wing populism.

    I would say you might be next, but who really gives a shit if Belgium leaves anyway.
    Hrm. Emotions are heating up. I'm sure you'll understand that it's easy to condemn the UK as a nation, unfairly to the remainers, sure, but it's a constant effort not to blame the lot of you for what is essentially your way of doing politics. This isn't just the referendum, this is how a nation with one of the oldest democracies hasn't found the political (or should I say public) will to reform a shitty system. This isn't just Brexiteers, you've had questionable decisions made long before that. You're all very good at complaining about your politicians, and you're right about that, but nothing seems to change. As soon as one of the complainers actually does get into some political office, they seem to turn into the corrupt politicians waiting for their pension instead of actually doing their job.

    Not defending Acidbaron, I think we ought to do an effort to not go overboard, but it's an explanation maybe. Some of us have to constantly remind ourselves that the political class isn't the typical Brit. And perhaps you'll acknowledge that everyone on the continent is affected by a unilateral decision your country made. We didn't choose this. Like it or not, we have the right to complain and bitch as much as you do. And some of it will be unreasonable. Can't be helped, try to sympathize with us a little, too. We may not hate it as much as you do, but we are not happy campers over here ourselves.

    And to be honest, you'll get a lot more Schadenfreude over the next few months/years. Suit up, you're the new Germany. Some call that irony, I believe...
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-10-08 at 12:24 AM.
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  17. #8677
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Hrm. Emotions are heating up. I'm sure you'll understand that it's easy to condemn the UK as a nation, unfairly to the remainers, sure, but it's a constant effort not to blame the lot of you for what is essentially your way of doing politics. This isn't just the referendum, this is how a nation with one of the oldest democracies hasn't found the political (or should I say public) will to reform a shitty system. This isn't just Brexiteers, you've had questionable decisions made long before that. You're all very good at complaining about your politicians, and you're right about that, but nothing seems to change. As soon as one of the complainers actually does get into some political office, they seem to turn into the corrupt politicians waiting for their pension instead of actually doing their job.
    Yeah, we're the only ones with politicians like this in Europe. No other country in the entire EU has problems with its political class.

    Not defending Acidbaron, I think we ought to do an effort to not go overboard, but it's an explanation maybe. Some of us have to constantly remind ourselves that the political class isn't the typical Brit. And perhaps you'll acknowledge that everyone on the continent is affected by a unilateral decision your country made. We didn't choose this. Like it or not, we have the right to complain and bitch as much as you do. And some of it will be unreasonable. Can't be helped, try to sympathize with us a little, too. We may not hate it as much as you do, but we are not happy campers over here ourselves.
    I acknowledge that everyone on the continent will be affected, and I feel ashamed that the actions of my countrymen will make life worse for everyone else in the EU, even a small part. You have every right to bitch and complain, so long as its directed at the right people. The people who actually did it. Not the entire population, nowhere even close to the entire population.

    And to be honest, you'll get a lot more Schadenfreude over the next few months/years. Suit up, you're the new Germany. Some call that irony, I believe...
    Lets not compare Brexit to two World Wars shall we? That's a step too far.

    As for defending Acidbaron, good, don't.

    I'm done holding back all the bile and vitriol i've got for arrogant continentals who've been waiting for this opportunity for decades.

  18. #8678
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Yeah, we're the only ones with politicians like this in Europe. No other country in the entire EU has problems with its political class.

    I acknowledge that everyone on the continent will be affected, and I feel ashamed that the actions of my countrymen will make life worse for everyone else in the EU, even a small part. You have every right to bitch and complain, so long as its directed at the right people. The people who actually did it. Not the entire population, nowhere even close to the entire population.

    Lets not compare Brexit to two World Wars shall we? That's a step too far.

    As for defending Acidbaron, good, don't.

    I'm done holding back all the bile and vitriol i've got for arrogant continentals who've been waiting for this opportunity for decades.
    Yes, you are the only ones with politicians like that. We all have our idiots, but have you seen many Art. 50s lately? Everyone has a problem with politicians, but someone had to be the first to drag it up to this level. The US and the UK have done it pretty much at the same time. The good news, however, is that it brought some sense back into the rest of us, so at least there's something good coming out of it.

    We are directing it at the right people, when we say "the UK", we are talking about the country, that is the Government, not the people. And perhaps Brexiteers, although many of them are victims just as much as you are. Misguided by outright lies. I get it, at some point you have to believe at least parts of what politicians are saying. Otherwise, what's the point in democracy? I can empathize with that. Unfortunately, there won't be any repercussions for those liars and that's very, very regrettable.

    Oh, I knew you'd be getting the Germany reference wrong. I'm not talking about the world wars directly, I'm talking about someone being the butt of bad taste jokes. The UK has done it with Germany for decades, so yeah... suit up warmly, fair or not, you'll have some banter coming your way. Arrogant continentals? We've suffered the famed British arrogance far longer than you have. Get some thick skin if you are losing your temper over this. This is nothing to what the British have afflicted onto the world over centuries in terms of arrogance. I mean, the pinnacle is your Prime Minister actually demanding the impossible from the EU and then having the nerve to be all offended that she was denied. Nah, your country is not exactly easy to sympathize with. We sympathize with people like you, but the nation as a whole? Switch it around, Germany leaves, Britain stays in the EU and Germany goes "Ok, here are our demands, you are obligated to fulfill them now otherwise it would be disrespectful!" Jesus Christ, one doesn't need a lot of imagination to think up what the response would be. Holy shit, it would be a feast for your politicians.. worth at least one general election for the PM, if I dare make that speculation. And the press... oh my. We all know what the Sun would do with that scenario!

    So, as we say over here... Someone dealing blows needs to be able to take a few hits, too. You're up.
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-10-08 at 01:25 AM.
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  19. #8679
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    /snip
    Yep, I know. It's just when it crosses over into nation-bashing, which I think we all agree is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    This is nothing to what the British have afflicted onto the world over centuries in terms of arrogance.
    Also, do we need a history 101 at this point? It's not just Britain that can claim centuries of arrogance. Are you referring to colonialism? Wasn't it the Portugese and Spanish who started it? How about implicit apartheid in the Belgian Congo? Or is this not what you're getting at?

    You know the problem with this thread? There's no-one to argue with properly. We're just bickering with each other. There are only a couple of bona fide Leavers and some trolls. The vast majority of the Brits here are Remainers of varying degrees of conviction.

    And you know why? It's because the demographics who voted Leave do not visit MMO-C. That or they're being very silent. I'd be genuinely very interested to read the opinion of someone who voted Leave who isn't Dribbles or Floopa.

    Anyone got a racist Gran they could roll out?
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  20. #8680
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    EU’s ever closer union. 10%
    OK this part is on the UK public. The EU gave Cameron an out on the "ever closer union". An explicit, legislated option for the UK to opt out of further convergence. If the UK public doesn't know about that, blame them, blame Cameron and blame their media (in roughly that order).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Yeah, we're the only ones with politicians like this in Europe. No other country in the entire EU has problems with its political class.
    The issue is though that your electoral system allows the fuckups in your political class to have disproportional power. That is fairly unique to the UK in Europe.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

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