[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Huehuecoyotl]

This is not the first time I've had to ask you stop misrepresenting posts.

What exactly did I misrepresent?

You said:

the UK is not going to get rid of standards or regulations

Then in the very next sentence of the same post you said:

It might decide that it wishes to alter or even, in some cases, remove certain regulations

If I'm trying to get some clarity on what you were trying to say, because you contradicted yourself almost in the same breath, that isn't my fault. If I've done the same thing before, maybe you need to improve how you phrase things, to stop being so unclear?

[telygroar]

I was here for the 500th page.
And nothing changed from the 1st one.

[Pann]

As stated, it would be because liability and jurisdiction pose a huge risk, for both sides mind you.

How so? As long EU exporters to the UK complied with UK law, whatever that might be, there is no risk to them.

You are aware that the UK would become a third country and therefore would have to be treated like that. What is currently required of a UK company is vastly different from what is required from third country companies. And again, we're talking about an environment where there are no UK regulations in place, that includes jurisdiction. With subsidiary I mean something like a legal representative at least.

Yes I am. UK regulations are a red herring in my opinion, for a UK company to sell into the EU it will have to comply with EU regulations it doesn't matter what UK regulations might or might not be. With some products this might be as simple as getting their product signed off with the relevant EU authority, others it may be massively more complex with regular inspections needed by EU representatives and/or being (partly) based within the EU.

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What exactly did I misrepresent?

You said:



Then in the very next sentence of the same post you said:



If I'm trying to get some clarity on what you were trying to say, because you contradicted yourself almost in the same breath, that isn't my fault. If I've done the same thing before, maybe you need to improve how you phrase things, to stop being so unclear?

What does the rest of the sentence that you decided to omit say? My full sentence reads "It might decide that it wishes to alter or even, in some cases, remove certain regulations but it will still have its own well defined regulations and since both the EU and UK will start from a point where they are aligned with one another it will be probably be a considerable length of time before this matters to the average person." which in no way contradicts the point being made.

Mayhem and I have been having a quite civil conversation if want to join in then by all means please do so but if you want to stir the please take it elsewhere.

[Teleros]

which specific regulations that currently impact you directly are you looking forward to losing? do you have any examples you can share?

I'm not expecting to lose any...?

But if you lose those regulations you won't be able to buy stuff from the EU. o_O

... What? If we lose those regulations, it will be easier for the EU to sell to us:

"I'm sorry sir, your goods must be comply with this regulation to be sold in the UK, so we can't let you sell that."

vs

"Yup, we have laxer regulations than the EU, so you can sell that here just fine."

Loosing that many regulations that quickly is a recipe for people getting rippled off and exploited as well as dangerous and defective products flooding on to the market.

Neither of those should be considered as good outcomes.

In the short term, yes (though in many, if not most, cases, we'd revert to our pre-EU/EEC regulations from the early 70s, so it's not like you'd be going back to a free-for-all).

If you think you've somehow "won" the argument by being the most obnoxious...

I think I'll have won it when the world doesn't come to an end after we leave on WTO rules :P .

Just as an example: When you have regulations about the brake power a lorry of a given weight has to produce, it's all great if the UK has the same regulation... but nobody in the EU is going to "just believe" the UK that. They'd like to see certificates that certify it actually does have the needed brake power. No, we do not give a shit what your UK based technical institute says. Because you are not in the EU. You can comply all you want, but your lorries won't be driving on EU streets without proper papers.

Sounds like good news in the short term for lorry drivers in the EU then. Not to mention people who have the sense to organise the paperwork to ensure British lorry drivers have valid paperwork for driving in the EU. Sounds like a business opportunity TBH.

When the regulation says "this driving license is valid within the EU" it means our lorry drivers won't have a driving license in the UK. Period.

The EU won't have any say on whether we allow the use of their driving licences on our roads. Equally, we won't have any say on whether they allow our licences on their roads (though this is doubly complicated by specific member state rules too, but w/e). All the government has to do is say it's fine, and hey presto, they can drive over here as if they had a UK licence or whatever else the government decides.

The same for insurances, our drivers and the lorry and the cargo are not insured in the UK. Why would anyone drive into the UK without having proper insurance?

So buy some? Plenty of vehicle insurers in the UK who will be happy to do business with you, and being the kind of business that likes actuarial tables and such, will no doubt have plenty of scenarios regarding the exact nature of Brexit and how much to charge you.

[Huehuecoyotl]

What does the rest of the sentence that you decided to omit say? My full sentence reads "It might decide that it wishes to alter or even, in some cases, remove certain regulations but it will still have its own well defined regulations and since both the EU and UK will start from a point where they are aligned with one another it will be probably be a considerable length of time before this matters to the average person." which in no way contradicts the point being made.

Mayhem and I have been having a quite civil conversation if want to join in then by all means please do so but if you want to stir the please take it elsewhere.

And the rest of that sentence in no way explains the contradiction with the previous sentence. It still makes no sense, which is why I tried to clarify. At which point you took umbrage, and tried to imply that I was being unfair to you (as well as implying that I did it regularly to you, as if I had some kind of vendetta). So no. I won't "take it elsewhere". If you post something that makes no sense in this thread, I will react to it. If you attack me for pointing out your lack of clarity, I won't just back down and leave you to it. I honestly don't understand why you seem to feel you are due some kind of special treatment in this thread.

[Pann]

And the rest of that sentence in no way explains the contradiction with the previous sentence. It still makes no sense, which is why I tried to clarify. At which point you took umbrage, and tried to imply that I was being unfair to you (as well as implying that I did it regularly to you, as if I had some kind of vendetta). So no. I won't "take it elsewhere". If you post something that makes no sense in this thread, I will react to it. If you attack me for pointing out your lack of clarity, I won't just back down and leave you to it. I honestly don't understand why you seem to feel you are due some kind of special treatment in this thread.

There is no contradiction. It has been quite clear throughout the entire conversation that we were talking about it the UK removing all regulations it is neither my fault or problem that you cannot be bothered to read through what we were talking about before interrupting.

It would appear that you have no intention of joining our conversation and to be honest I have no desire to play this little game so I'll leave this here. I'm sure dribbles will along soon and you can start a petty argument with him.

[Slant]

The EU won't have any say on whether we allow the use of their driving licences on our roads. Equally, we won't have any say on whether they allow our licences on their roads (though this is doubly complicated by specific member state rules too, but w/e). All the government has to do is say it's fine, and hey presto, they can drive over here as if they had a UK licence or whatever else the government decides.

You're a pretty one-dimensional thinker, aren't you. This isn't about the EU. This is about insurances. I'm sorry, but being thick doesn't mean you get talking points here.

[Teleros]

You're a pretty one-dimensional thinker, aren't you. This isn't about the EU. This is about insurances. I'm sorry, but being thick doesn't mean you get talking points here.

Again, what's the problem with just buying insurance to cover whatever you're doing when you enter the UK? EU firms manage to do that in the rest of the world after all.

[Gibblewink]

Lowering standards in the UK wouldn't automatically make it more attractive for an EU manufacturer: Making a product to another standard means making changes to the production line, setting up checks to ensure that the lower standard product doesn't get mixed in with the normal ones all the while having to compete with cheaper products. Also lowering standards doesn't mean your employees go for less pay, that your equipment becomes cheaper or that your rent drops.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Yet another left wing sore loser I see. Oh don't worry, I believe you when you say you'll riot - the salt mining has been great ever since we won the referendum and I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

lol, left wing

I can barely open my mouth without getting into an argument with a random Corbynista. I'm liberal dad personified. Feel free to vilify at will. Everyone else does

No - the point I'm getting at is that out of all the options on the table the least acceptable to the population is no deal. See recent opinion polls - no need to list them.

So, you can talk about saltiness (isn't this a South Park-inspired meme from the '00s - haven't we moved on from there?) but the reality is much more serious. No deal Brexiteers are a distinct minority and it is abhorrent that you/they think the country will bend to their will.

And if there is no deal, either by design or by accident, then there will be monumental upheaval. Monumental. Whatcha gonna do? Get the army out? BJ giving the order to open fire? lol

[Pann]

No - the point I'm getting at is that out of all the options on the table the least acceptable to the population is no deal. See recent opinion polls - no need to list them.

Ooh, I don't about that. May's proposed deal seems to have united both leave and remain supporters in their dislike for it.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Pann, I can't figure out which side of the fence you're coming down on. But I'm pretty sure you're not sitting on it.

Yes, ofc, no-one likes May's deal because she's delivering what many, including those on this board promised: Leave but according to the EU's sayso. Barnier's staircase. Yes, the attitude of e.g., Tusk fucks me off, but it's irrelevant.

Are you genuinely telling me you'd prefer No deal to May's deal/or a further climbdown (e.g., SNP link above) or Remain?

[Pann]

Pann, I can't figure out which side of the fence you're coming down on. But I'm pretty sure you're not sitting on it.

Yes, ofc, no-one likes May's deal because she's delivering what many, including those on this board promised: Leave but according to the EU's sayso. Barnier's staircase. Yes, the attitude of e.g., Tusk fucks me off, but it's irrelevant.

Are you genuinely telling me you'd prefer No deal to May's deal/or a further climbdown (e.g., SNP link above) or Remain?

I'm just pointing out that May's deal is probably giving no deal a run for its money in terms of the (un)popularity stakes.

I'd prefer, as I always have, to remain.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I'm just pointing out that May's deal is probably giving no deal a run for its money in terms of the (un)popularity stakes.

I'd prefer, as I always have, to remain.

I'd agree with that. If no-deal and May's deal were each put to a parliamentary vote, I genuinely wouldn't want to put money on which one would fair worse. But I would put my house on the fact that neither of them could gather a majority to pass. The only one that would attract a majority based on individual MPs choice would be the "no Brexit" option. Whether that would still pass given the politics at play would be a whole other question.

The entire thing is a mess at this point. And it's the futures of all of us that they are playing around with.

[Teleros]

lol, left wing

I can barely open my mouth without getting into an argument with a random Corbynista. I'm liberal dad personified. Feel free to vilify at will. Everyone else does

Not as bad as a Corbynista, but still left-wing .

No - the point I'm getting at is that out of all the options on the table the least acceptable to the population is no deal. See recent opinion polls - no need to list them.

Bit dubious about the polls in general TBH, though given the generally anti-Brexit bias in most of the media it wouldn't be surprising if people come away worried that "no deal = very bad".

No deal Brexiteers are a distinct minority and it is abhorrent that you/they think the country will bend to their will.

People who *want* no deal may be, but colour me sceptical that there's a majority who'll be in favour of any deal no matter how bad over no deal. You know, like the actual deal May is trying to push.

And if there is no deal, either by design or by accident, then there will be monumental upheaval. Monumental. Whatcha gonna do? Get the army out? BJ giving the order to open fire? lol

I really doubt it'll come to that TBH. Some protests and such, sure. Maybe even a few riots. Lots and lots of sanctimonious Remoaners and pro-EU types whining on Twitter. Big deal.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Not as bad as a Corbynista, but still left-wing .

You know the old expression about just having a hammer and everything looking like a nail? Turns out to be true for the far right as well.

Bit dubious about the polls in general TBH, though given the generally anti-Brexit bias in most of the media it wouldn't be surprising if people come away worried that "no deal = very bad".

The fact you believe that the media are generally "anti-Brexit" says a lot about you, to be honest. The print media have been largely pro-Brexit, but have reported the facts of the process. That may make them appear to be "anti-Brexit" to your eyes, but it just makes them "pro-truth". We can't help it if reality doesn't match up to the pictures in your head.

People who *want* no deal may be, but colour me sceptical that there's a majority who'll be in favour of any deal no matter how bad over no deal. You know, like the actual deal May is trying to push.

Which is why Brexit is doomed. A tiny minority want a no-deal Brexit. But there isn't going to be a deal on the table that can get enough people behind it to get it through.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Finally, we have some uninterrupted debate between actual Brits who hold different viewpoints.

I count: one left wing remainer, one centre right remainer, one centre left remainer, and one right wing leaver.

That's nice.

I really doubt it'll come to that TBH. Some protests and such, sure. Maybe even a few riots. Lots and lots of sanctimonious Remoaners and pro-EU types whining on Twitter. Big deal.

I genuinely think you're underestimating the chaos a no deal will create. And I genuinely think you're underestimating the depth of feeling that will surface when those people who Leave lied to realise they were lied to. Brexit dividend lol. It's very easy to talk in memes: remoaners etc. But this is not some "my class has been nerfed" thread. This is a decision that will reverberate for a generation+

[Pann]

I'd agree with that. If no-deal and May's deal were each put to a parliamentary vote, I genuinely wouldn't want to put money on which one would fair worse. But I would put my house on the fact that neither of them could gather a majority to pass. The only one that would attract a majority based on individual MPs choice would be the "no Brexit" option. Whether that would still pass given the politics at play would be a whole other question.

The entire thing is a mess at this point. And it's the futures of all of us that they are playing around with.

I think May's deal will be rejected by Parliament and there will be some minor tweaks, such as defined end date to the transition period and/or language around whether the UK leaving requires mutual consent, before being passed. I think this will still be universally disliked but it will take no deal completely out of the picture although this may cause a confidence vote against May in order to try bring the option of a harder Brexit back. If it is rejected and the EU refuses to make any changes then it could go either way but I think in that case no deal is the most likely outcome.

At present I would guess that the chances of no Brexit are less than 10%, despite many MPs believing that remain is the best option there is still a great deal of support for leave amongst voters and until polls start showing 70%+ support for remain I don't see there being any change in Brexit policy. But I think as it becomes more and more apparent that the promised Brexit cannot be delivered the greater chance there is of a second referendum and the possibility of remain being an option however the risk is that if the deal is perceived as being too bad then it will turn public opinion in favour of no-deal.

Whatever may happen one thing is sure; I do not envy May's position.

On a slightly different note, at least May's deal has got Nadine Dorries to realise that under May's deal we would lose the ability to have a say in our future. So by leaving the EU we are going to lose what Dorries and pals claimed that we did not have as EU members and would have to leave the EU to regain!?! Mind blowing!

https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/st...38244771631106

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I genuinely think you're underestimating the chaos a no deal will create. And I genuinely think you're underestimating the depth of feeling that will surface when those people who Leave lied to realise they were lied to. Brexit dividend lol. It's very easy to talk in memes: remoaners etc. But this is not some "my class has been nerfed" thread. This is a decision that will reverberate for a generation+

I think no deal will be chaotic and make no mistake it will not be good for the UK but by the same token I do think that some of the effects are being over blown.

I have to disagree with your assessment of how leavers will react. I read many comments from leavers and the general consensus amongst them (although I accept that they are likely to be at more extreme end of the spectrum) is not that Brexit was flawed from the outset but instead it has been hijacked by remainers - Olly Robbins being one of the prime targets for their anger.

[Teleros]

You know the old expression about just having a hammer and everything looking like a nail? Turns out to be true for the far right as well.

Liberals are left-wing... uhm, what's wrong with that statement exactly?

The fact you believe that the media are generally "anti-Brexit" says a lot about you, to be honest. The print media have been largely pro-Brexit, but have reported the facts of the process.

I was mostly thinking about TV than print actually, so you've a point there.

Which is why Brexit is doomed. A tiny minority want a no-deal Brexit. But there isn't going to be a deal on the table that can get enough people behind it to get it through.

Brexit isn't doomed. Article 50 has been invoked, Parliament can't stop it now. The only issue at stake at this point is whether we go to WTO rules when we leave, or have some other kind of deal in place.

I genuinely think you're underestimating the chaos a no deal will create. And I genuinely think you're underestimating the depth of feeling that will surface when those people who Leave lied to realise they were lied to.

Sure I might be, but so much of this is conjecture... meh. Like you say, this is one of those decisions that will reverberate for a long long time to come - which is kind of the reasoning behind my wanting Brexit. Even if some of Slant's predictions come true and we have trouble early on, we can and we will get over that period, and do very well for ourselves afterwards. Five or ten years from now we'll wonder what all the fuss was about though, and fifty years from now probably wondering why anyone could be so foolish as to have wanted to remain when it was "obvious" how good things are outside the EU, and how could anyone have been worried about leaving?

Brexit dividend lol.

Probably true with that. Brexit is something that it'll take years to see the fruits of, at least in economic terms.

[Nigel Tufnel]

At present I would guess that the chances of no Brexit are less than 10%

1 in 10 chance of no deal?

That's fantastic. I can stop worrying.

I'll hibernate until spring, crawl out of my cave in early April, and it'll all be over.

#bearshavegotitsussed