View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #8841
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    "Pretended to play ball" is a nasty lie. They have set out the boundaries they're willing to negotiate in from the start, they were largely ignored by the UK from the start, too. So sticking to your principles is now "pretending to play ball"? That's a dishonest statement if ever I've seen one.
    It's not a nasty lie. The Eu set out the boundaries, the UK did too. It feels like for the whole time both side worked on the common grounds, which were sorted out a year ago. The only real sticking point was the irish border, and no progress has been made there.
    I'm not being cynical here. It just feels as if both sides have waiting for the other to break their principles, instead of just saying let's go EFTA, or let's end this.
    Maybe I'm phrasing it in a way that feels dishonest but the last year has been pretty much a waiting game.

  2. #8842
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yes, I am. What exactly makes you think it is more likely that the NHS would be privatised post Brexit? How does EU membership prevent the privatisation of health services?

    Regardless what might or might not happen with the UUP they are Unionists, like the DUP, they will not do anything that threatens to break up the union.

    The majority of what you have written is inaccurate, Northern Ireland's unemployment rate is 4.3% (compared to 6.1% in RoI) which is 0.3% higher than the UK average but the poverty rate in Northern Ireland of 19% is lower than England (21%) and Wales (24%) and the same as Scotland. The UK subsidies Northern Ireland to the tune of £6billion per annum and, as part of the UK, NI pays £374million (based on 2015 figures) into the EU which it gets £320million (mostly in CAP payments) in return.
    Because plenty of Tories would like to do it and now they're free to write the sort of trade deals that allow them to. Other EU members would have held them back in the past but now they just need to find willing partners and some in the US seem interested.

    RE Unionists - The Tories are also interested in protecting the union but that has not stopped them taking decisions that put it in danger. I don't think the UUP or DUP would intentionally risk the union but I don't trust the bumbling idiots not to.

    I misread an image here. Poverty is above Scotland and below Wales and England but unemployment is higher than all three:
    https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/povert...n-ireland-2018

    And I'm taking my stats on NI's 3.5m over 7 years from the EU's Eurostat here:
    https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/s...014-2020_1.pdf

    In the end though it just looks like I consider the Tories to be more mendacious, the Unionists much less in control of events than they seem to think and the situation in NI to be more potentially volatile than you do.

  3. #8843
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    16,788
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    Name the contingencies and how they will work.
    Their contingency plans are quite simple. They involve moving their money offshore, preferably to somewhere with no extradition treaties, then going to where that money is.

    Oh, you meant contingency plans for the nation? No such thing exists.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  4. #8844
    Quote Originally Posted by Soxoffender View Post
    Because plenty of Tories would like to do it and now they're free to write the sort of trade deals that allow them to. Other EU members would have held them back in the past but now they just need to find willing partners and some in the US seem interested.

    RE Unionists - The Tories are also interested in protecting the union but that has not stopped them taking decisions that put it in danger. I don't think the UUP or DUP would intentionally risk the union but I don't trust the bumbling idiots not to.

    I misread an image here. Poverty is above Scotland and below Wales and England but unemployment is higher than all three:
    https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/povert...n-ireland-2018

    And I'm taking my stats on NI's 3.5m over 7 years from the EU's Eurostat here:
    https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/s...014-2020_1.pdf

    In the end though it just looks like I consider the Tories to be more mendacious, the Unionists much less in control of events than they seem to think and the situation in NI to be more potentially volatile than you do.
    You've provided four(or was it five?) names that support NHS privatisation, one is a soon to be ex-MEP and another is no longer a member of the Con party or an MP. However if so many Tories are up for privatising the NHS why have they not done so already? Why do they need to wait to write certain trade deals? And what the UK does or does not do with the NHS is absolutely nothing to with other EU members so I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that the Tories were held back by them.

    The fact of the matter is that there is little evidence that NHS privatisation is widely supported within the Tory party as a whole or if there was that they would act on it. In reality any party that tries to get rid of the NHS is a party that is making itself completely unelectable.

    What decisions have the Tories taken that puts the union in danger? They have rejected the EU's offer to move the Irish border to sea in between NI and the mainland and have so far (although this may change) stood by their assertion that NI must be treated the same as the rest of the UK despite the fact that it risks a no-deal Brexit.

    Unemployment may be higher, by all of 0.3%, but it is still almost 2% below that of the Republic and has recently seen the lowest rates in a decade.

    And? That still does not change the fact that the rest of the UK subsidies Northern Irish public services by over twelve times that amount each and every year or that the money NI's rich land owners receive from the EU essentially balances out what it pays in.

    The situation in NI is certainly volatile but whilst unionists continue to comprise the majority the prospect of NI leaving the UK is low.

  5. #8845
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    It's not a nasty lie. The Eu set out the boundaries, the UK did too. It feels like for the whole time both side worked on the common grounds, which were sorted out a year ago. The only real sticking point was the irish border, and no progress has been made there.
    I'm not being cynical here. It just feels as if both sides have waiting for the other to break their principles, instead of just saying let's go EFTA, or let's end this.
    Maybe I'm phrasing it in a way that feels dishonest but the last year has been pretty much a waiting game.
    The EU didn't decide to do this. It never for a second felt like there was common ground. From second one Northern Ireland has been a problem. But certain people chose to ignore it. So great, the UK did the 80% that were easy. Now they should do the 20% that are hard. Oh, they can't? Well thanks for putting so much effort into the easy 80%. The EU is now the mean guy, because they kept reminding the UK to find a solution for Nothern Ireland, since everything the EU is suggesting apparently is unaccpeptable. So now you go the EU is "pretending to play ball"? Really? They've told the UK this before the referendum. They've told the UK at the beginning of the negotiations. They have told the UK during the negotiations.

    How much telling does the UK need to realise that yes, there is a problem. And no, it's not the EU's job to figure out problems for the UK that are largely an internal issue to the UK and most of all, created by the UK itself.

    The EU's job is not to babysit its member states.

    I have no idea why I have to keep repeating this every page or so. All of these considerations should have been done by a sovereign nation that wants to be treated like a serious player in global politics. That the UK is now surprised at the development is... shameful. The EU has offered what I think is a shitty compromise, but probably the best that prevents a hard border on NI and doesn't quite outright break the Union of the UK. Have a backstop, implement custom controls in the Irish Sea... yes, it'll feel weird, but...

    Get this, the UK's counter proposal? Put the entire UK in the customs union for goods. Are they on drugs or something? Do they think they can somehow use the Irish situation to circumvent the EU's mantra "the single market consists of all four freedoms, not just one" with that douchebag trickery? Seriously?

    And you say the EU is "pretending to play ball". Are you mad?

    We'll see how that pans out, I don't see that "whole UK solution" getting any serious attention. Even if the EU agrees, May would never get that through the commons, even a continental fascist like I can see that without binoculars. :P

    (Because I can't assume a mature level of understanding on this forum from some people, the last bit about me being a fascist was sarcasm. Obviously.)
    Last edited by Slant; 2018-10-16 at 10:02 PM.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  6. #8846
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    It's hard to say really. Does anyone want her job? It's a disaster regardless of how you view it.

    There's no package May can present that has a chance in hell of passing a parliamentary vote.
    i would take the pay check.

    hell ill even turn up to PMQ and just sit there blowing raspberries at old jezzah for a few hours, literally.

    i would also implement my priority policy's
    1# give a permit for fracking around jeramy's mouth so we can use that natural gas.
    2# ban any one born into a family with a joint income over 40k from wearing a flat cap
    3# ban any one who follows a religion or disagrees with LGBTQ+ or Women's rights from calling them selves a liberal
    4# kick Scotland out of the Uk, cos fuck it there just a headache at the point.
    5# build rail lines to place people actually want to go to.
    6# ban any individual or company from owning more than 2 residential property's
    7# ban ban foreigners not residing in the uk from owning residential property in the uk - ill call 6 and 7 my "fuck this crazy rental problem" law

    probably some more too. id probably legalese weed. and put a ton of cash into widening and re designing the motorway systems too cos they were really not ment for handling this many lorries and car's

  7. #8847
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    It's not a nasty lie. The Eu set out the boundaries, the UK did too. It feels like for the whole time both side worked on the common grounds, which were sorted out a year ago. The only real sticking point was the irish border, and no progress has been made there.
    I'm not being cynical here. It just feels as if both sides have waiting for the other to break their principles, instead of just saying let's go EFTA, or let's end this.
    Maybe I'm phrasing it in a way that feels dishonest but the last year has been pretty much a waiting game.
    The issue is that the EU boundries are set by international law, either from WTO basically saying "You have to protect your borders in regards to trade." and GFA which basically says "No border between Northern and Republic of Ireland ever." so from EU perspective the hard border if there was to be one would have to be in the Irish sea.

    The UK could have just stopped this from happening from day 1. Day fucking one by saying "This is going to take years, let's take norway and continue talks about how the future goes." because too many in the Tories and Unionist groups are never going to accept Irish sea border. It has always been up to the UK, the one leaving to budge. The EU boundries are defined by international treaties it can't get out. If it did USA, Japan, Canada, whatever would be jumping all over it demanding new concessions.

    The UK red lines and Good Friday Agreement are incompatible and are cloud cookoo land.

  8. #8848
    At end of the day if they can't sort out a deal this is a massive failure in negotiations from both sides. The Uk and Eu should should be ashamed if they fail to make it work through compromises.

  9. #8849
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The EU didn't decide to do this. It never for a second felt like there was common ground. From second one Northern Ireland has been a problem. But certain people chose to ignore it. So great, the UK did the 80% that were easy. Now they should do the 20% that are hard. Oh, they can't? Well thanks for putting so much effort into the easy 80%. The EU is now the mean guy, because they kept reminding the UK to find a solution for Nothern Ireland, since everything the EU is suggesting apparently is unaccpeptable. So now you go the EU is "pretending to play ball"? Really? They've told the UK this before the referendum. They've told the UK at the beginning of the negotiations. They have told the UK during the negotiations.

    How much telling does the UK need to realise that yes, there is a problem. And no, it's not the EU's job to figure out problems for the UK that are largely an internal issue to the UK and most of all, created by the UK itself.

    The EU's job is not to babysit its member states.

    I have no idea why I have to keep repeating this every page or so. All of these considerations should have been done by a sovereign nation that wants to be treated like a serious player in global politics. That the UK is now surprised at the development is... shameful. The EU has offered what I think is a shitty compromise, but probably the best that prevents a hard border on NI and doesn't quite outright break the Union of the UK. Have a backstop, implement custom controls in the Irish Sea... yes, it'll feel weird, but...

    Get this, the UK's counter proposal? Put the entire UK in the customs union for goods. Are they on drugs or something? Do they think they can somehow use the Irish situation to circumvent the EU's mantra "the single market consists of all four freedoms, not just one" with that douchebag trickery? Seriously?

    And you say the EU is "pretending to play ball". Are you mad?

    We'll see how that pans out, I don't see that "whole UK solution" getting any serious attention. Even if the EU agrees, May would never get that through the commons, even a continental fascist like I can see that without binoculars. :P

    (Because I can't assume a mature level of understanding on this forum from some people, the last bit about me being a fascist was sarcasm. Obviously.)
    id like to argue that your both wrong and the EU and UK both had no hope of solving the northern Ireland issue.

    thats why there is no solution all of the EU's proposals arnt workable and all of the UK's arnt workable because the problem is deeper than an EU vs UK issue its a problem of national identity in Ireland thats a number of century's old and needs to be solved by the Irish them selves. the EU deal pissed of the RED hand types and the UK deal pisses of the IRA types, and when one of those sides loses out it usually ends in bombs and guns. hell you know a countrys fucked when they have to have a "power sharing government" which literally dissolved its self over fucking solar panels and hasn't run the country for 638 days now https://howlonghasnorthernirelandnothadagovernment.com/

    i mean they broke the world record for the longest country without a government that kicked of over a solar panel scheme and you want there to be an agreement that docent causes shit to kick off there ?

    i mean hell there was a whole pro choice march there past an empty government. i was laughing my tits off at all these woman chanting for change at literally no one, the place is in limbo.
    Last edited by mmoc56f3565a46; 2018-10-16 at 10:29 PM.

  10. #8850
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You've provided four(or was it five?) names that support NHS privatisation, one is a soon to be ex-MEP and another is no longer a member of the Con party or an MP. However if so many Tories are up for privatising the NHS why have they not done so already? Why do they need to wait to write certain trade deals? And what the UK does or does not do with the NHS is absolutely nothing to with other EU members so I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that the Tories were held back by them.

    The fact of the matter is that there is little evidence that NHS privatisation is widely supported within the Tory party as a whole or if there was that they would act on it. In reality any party that tries to get rid of the NHS is a party that is making itself completely unelectable.

    What decisions have the Tories taken that puts the union in danger? They have rejected the EU's offer to move the Irish border to sea in between NI and the mainland and have so far (although this may change) stood by their assertion that NI must be treated the same as the rest of the UK despite the fact that it risks a no-deal Brexit.

    Unemployment may be higher, by all of 0.3%, but it is still almost 2% below that of the Republic and has recently seen the lowest rates in a decade.

    And? That still does not change the fact that the rest of the UK subsidies Northern Irish public services by over twelve times that amount each and every year or that the money NI's rich land owners receive from the EU essentially balances out what it pays in.

    The situation in NI is certainly volatile but whilst unionists continue to comprise the majority the prospect of NI leaving the UK is low.
    Privatisation has been steadily increasing since The [Tory] Health and Social Care Act in 2012 - it's really a matter of the scale and speed of change. Various EU nations have been interested in limiting access for US healthcare giants to national markets, which is why TTIP included exemptions for national healthcare markets. Even if a future government does want to keep up those companies out, they'll have less ability to do so when outside of a trade block.

    The Tories have been underfunding the NHS:
    https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...h/nhs-funding/
    https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

    And May has backed the Naylor Report's plan to sell off NHS assets to hide this funding gap, despite serious reservations in many quarters:
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-huge-11941502
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs...f-gathers-pace

    1. Cameron gambled that the Scottish Nationalists would lose their referendum but it was a risk.
    2. Voices were warning before the Brexit that the GFA may be at risk if we left the EU and yet Dave still put party before country and offered the Brexit ref to appease Tory Eurosceptics and steal votes off UKIP.
    3. Rather than take the sensible approach and take time to formulate a consensus plan with a proper mandate, May triggered A50 and set in motion a legal process she couldn't stop with consequences she couldn't foresee.

    You and I disagree on NI but I do think you read my initial NI point too strongly. I think it's "plausible" but not that it's nailed on or anything like that.

  11. #8851
    Quote Originally Posted by sircaw View Post
    At end of the day if they can't sort out a deal this is a massive failure in negotiations from both sides. The UK and EU should should be ashamed if they fail to make it work through compromises.
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.



    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  12. #8852
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.



    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    This guy has been wrong so many times it's actually physically painful to listen to.

    EU is playing by the rules it is stuck to by the WTO. What should it say to get the UK happy "Yes we'll put a hard border between us and Ireland."?

  13. #8853
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.

    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    You're dishonest.

    Let's look at the Irish problem: 1. The UK wants to control its borders, which means a hard border to the EU, so they can control who comes in and who doesn't. 2. The UK wants to keep the Union intact, which means, same rules for Northern Ireland as for Great Britain.

    This isn't the EU looking bad. This is all homemade. The EU hasn't even said anything at this stage and already it's a paradox. Now, add to that that the EU has made it clear and played with open cards from the beginning that the single market only works with those four freedoms. It's not that they said it to spite the British, it's the whole concept of the single market. It's called single market because it's a single market. For everything. If you took people out of it, you would have two markets, one for people and one for everything else. By definition that would mean the end of the single market.

    Please, tell me again how the EU is under pressure or "playing hardball". Go ahead, make my day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    This guy has been wrong so many times it's actually physically painful to listen to.

    EU is playing by the rules it is stuck to by the WTO. What should it say to get the UK happy "Yes we'll put a hard border between us and Ireland."?
    That is actually the wet dream of the crazy Brexiteers. See, the logic is this... keep this impasse up until someone even crazier suggests that the EU will have to erect a border within its boundaries to seal off against the giant leak in RoI. And then... this is the plot twist, simply reunite Ireland. Only, under British rule.

    I know, I know... civil war, Irish independence and all that jazz. But you see, you're dealing with the batshit crazy here, so that's not really an issue. You can just wish away anything you don't like.

    I mean, it is fun to think like that... let lose of all rationality and just be free...
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  14. #8854
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That is actually the wet dream of the crazy Brexiteers. See, the logic is this... keep this impasse up until someone even crazier suggests that the EU will have to erect a border within its boundaries to seal off against the giant leak in RoI. And then... this is the plot twist, simply reunite Ireland. Only, under British rule.

    I know, I know... civil war, Irish independence and all that jazz. But you see, you're dealing with the batshit crazy here, so that's not really an issue. You can just wish away anything you don't like.

    I mean, it is fun to think like that... let lose of all rationality and just be free...
    It's true and it's insanity. I also know many who think this way, just like to get them to bring out their insanity though for all to see just to bring down what ever facade they have when supporting this. Be it basically dreams of empire of some, I don't like dem foreigners for others. Some just too proud to admit their mistake or some kind of facist ideals with a few more.

  15. #8855
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It's true and it's insanity. I also know many who think this way, just like to get them to bring out their insanity though for all to see just to bring down what ever facade they have when supporting this. Be it basically dreams of empire of some, I don't like dem foreigners for others. Some just too proud to admit their mistake or some kind of facist ideals with a few more.
    So, basically... anything goes from here then. This Wednesday is going to be very, very interesting on so many aspects.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  16. #8856
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, basically... anything goes from here then. This Wednesday is going to be very, very interesting on so many aspects.
    Do you think EU will play "Good Cop." for lack of better word and extend to November just to show they're not at fault. Or do you think like I think they should essentially if nothing is even close to an agreement on Northern Ireland just go out and say "We tried our best, we offered everything we could. But May just isn't going to budge." (in a more diplomatic way of course.)

  17. #8857
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.

  18. #8858
    Quote Originally Posted by Malacrass View Post
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.
    That's the thing, outside what the UK media tries to push the countries in the EU are mostly happy with how things are and actually want gradual closer integration. Sure Poland, Hungary and Italy might get uppity at times, but the people don't want to leave. Hell their issues are with things instigated outside of the EU or strongman who isn't as popular as anti eu people want to push trying to make damages to Democracy in said country.

    Also the EU basically put their position in play less than a month after the vote. They got together, made compromises, realised the laws and duties they had to follow and went "Here's our position." and basically sat on one end of the table waiting for TWO FULL YEARS before May came back and said "Hi, this is chequers, we want all the good stuff without the responsibilities. Also we demand you break your 4 pillars." (Basically think Texas ceding from US and telling US that to get a good deal from our side, break the bill of rights.).

    The EU said no and threw it out immediately (although some people think it only happened couple weeks ago), then there's the issue of Northern Ireland which has been said a lot. Which in short, May wants out of Common Market/customs union, but keep good friday. Which physically just can not happen without basically Northern Ireland being treated as an external part of EU, like say Gibralta or Falklands. Her party (Conservative and Unionist Party) won't allow it, DUP who has May by the Ba.. Ovaries won't allow it.

  19. #8859
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    But this favors UK even it fails. And makes the EU look bad.

    EU is under pressure from many angles. They should make friendly negotiations with the UK but instead they are playing hardball. The longer this draws out the more it favors the UK.
    If the EU compromises, on it's core pillars no less, it'll look incredibly weak and useless to all current EU members and rest of the world.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  20. #8860
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    If the EU compromises, on it's core pillars no less, it'll look incredibly weak and useless to all current EU members and rest of the world.
    A no deal makes the EU look a bit stupid, losing its core pillars make it Look like a pathetic, grovelling child. If they can give up fundamental freedoms here they will be under pressure to give them up elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malacrass View Post
    No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.
    That's probably more likely to happen when we get to future trade arrangemwnts rather than the divorce arrangement stage we are at now. French farmers will want one thing, Danish fisherman another and German industry yet another. That is when the UK will be able to play members off against each other. At the moment the UK can't get past how they relate to the EU as a whole going forward so it's fairly easy for the EU to stay United.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •