[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Deleted]

If the EU compromises, on it's core pillars no less, it'll look incredibly weak and useless to all current EU members and rest of the world.

A no deal makes the EU look a bit stupid, losing its core pillars make it Look like a pathetic, grovelling child. If they can give up fundamental freedoms here they will be under pressure to give them up elsewhere.

No matter how this whole Brexit deal (or no deal) scenario ends, I'm honestly surprised just how close the EU is acting on this matter. We have several members that could use the Brexit negotiations as a chance to pressure the EU in other areas, or become loud little shits because they are losing massively on trade in case of a no-deal, but it's not happening.

That's probably more likely to happen when we get to future trade arrangemwnts rather than the divorce arrangement stage we are at now. French farmers will want one thing, Danish fisherman another and German industry yet another. That is when the UK will be able to play members off against each other. At the moment the UK can't get past how they relate to the EU as a whole going forward so it's fairly easy for the EU to stay United.

[Pann]

Privatisation has been steadily increasing since The [Tory] Health and Social Care Act in 2012 - it's really a matter of the scale and speed of change. Various EU nations have been interested in limiting access for US healthcare giants to national markets, which is why TTIP included exemptions for national healthcare markets. Even if a future government does want to keep up those companies out, they'll have less ability to do so when outside of a trade block.

The Tories have been underfunding the NHS:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...h/nhs-funding/
https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

And May has backed the Naylor Report's plan to sell off NHS assets to hide this funding gap, despite serious reservations in many quarters:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-huge-11941502
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs...f-gathers-pace

1. Cameron gambled that the Scottish Nationalists would lose their referendum but it was a risk.
2. Voices were warning before the Brexit that the GFA may be at risk if we left the EU and yet Dave still put party before country and offered the Brexit ref to appease Tory Eurosceptics and steal votes off UKIP.
3. Rather than take the sensible approach and take time to formulate a consensus plan with a proper mandate, May triggered A50 and set in motion a legal process she couldn't stop with consequences she couldn't foresee.

You and I disagree on NI but I do think you read my initial NI point too strongly. I think it's "plausible" but not that it's nailed on or anything like that.

Non-NHS provided care spending has remained steady for the last four years and as a share of the overall budget expenditure has decreased in the last year. One area where spending on independent providers has increased is community services, such as community nursing, health visiting and occupational therapy.

However despite the involvement of private sector providers the services that they provide to the NHS are still free to the end user - this will not change.

If the government wants to keep private health providers out of the NHS they will it has nothing to do with the EU.

The Tories have been underfunding lots of things this is due to monetary constraints rather than choice. When they took office the UK was spending £152billion per year more than it receives in the taxation the reality is that this is unsustainable and can only be addressed with spending cuts or tax rises. Whether the choices they have made over the last eight years are the correct ones is another debate entirely but to their credit we are now almost at a point where we are not borrowing more than we receive in tax.

Selling non-performing and/or expensive to maintain assets seems like a sensible suggestion to me, and is common in the private sector, especially when the NHS is desperate of cash.

The structuring of who provides healthcare within the NHS may change over the years but the NHS is going nowhere.

It is plausible that Ireland will reunify at some point in time however it is not plausible that, as claimed, it will do so in the near future or as a direct result of Brexit.

[Slant]

https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Berlin-b...e20674329.html

The German Government is preparing for a hard Brexit. Legislation is being introduced into the cabinet that would increase the number of customs officers and civil servants in other sectors that are connected to this topic. That's being done this week.

In the meantime, they hint that tonight nothing new will happen. May will summarize the current state to the media and Barnier will inform the heads of the 27 member states. The summary will be that Ireland is not solved and the heads of state will have to decide whether to give May a special summit in November or delay the next summit for the regularly scheduled december summit, giving May precious little time to punch whatever the outcome is through the commons (and have the member states ratify it if needed).

[Soxoffender]

Selling non-performing and/or expensive to maintain assets seems like a sensible suggestion to me, and is common in the private sector, especially when the NHS is desperate of cash.

The government (historically all UK governments) has a history of getting poor value for these sorts of assets (e.g. Royal Mail) and campaigners are saying that plenty of them are still needed, they're just not in a fit state to use right now because of underfunding.

The Tories have been underfunding lots of things this is due to monetary constraints rather than choice. When they took office the UK was spending £152billion per year more than it receives in the taxation the reality is that this is unsustainable and can only be addressed with spending cuts or tax rises. Whether the choices they have made over the last eight years are the correct ones is another debate entirely but to their credit we are now almost at a point where we are not borrowing more than we receive in tax.

If you believe that austerity has been necessary rather than a choice then I doubt we've got much we're going to agree on. Nice to have a disagreement with someone on here that didn't end in name-calling though.

[Pann]

The government (historically all UK governments) has a history of getting poor value for these sorts of assets (e.g. Royal Mail) and campaigners are saying that plenty of them are still needed, they're just not in a fit state to use right now because of underfunding.

I'm not sure if UK governments being a bit crap at selling off assets is a compelling argument for the NHS to retain a certain non-performing assets or those that they no longer require. However it is important to remember that this is just the recommendations of a report and is not, at present, happening.

The NHS most certainly needs more money but I think it is a long way from being not in a fit state.

If you believe that austerity has been necessary rather than a choice then I doubt we've got much we're going to agree on. Nice to have a disagreement with someone on here that didn't end in name-calling though.

Austerity was most certainly a choice whether there were better more suited choices to deal with the deficit available at the time is open to debate but ultimately there is no way to prove one or the other if this is/was the case. There is certainly a case for not cutting spending and taking on additional debt however this all this debt needs servicing which at present costs around £48billion per year. It is also worth noting that the last time the UK tried to spend its way out of financial difficulties it resulted in an IMF bailout and that it was the running the economy at deficit that left us so unprepared for the financial crisis.

[Kallisto]

Quite honestly the negotiations should be like this tonight.

EU: Prime Minister May are you willing to budge on either the Northern Ireland issue or the Customs union/Single Market.

If May says no to both, then just walk away as simply put without that kind of budge nothing can be done. Show the world how you tried, were patient, while the UK were the ones being unreasonable.

- - - Updated - - -



Some of the disasters that no deal will give us.

[ranzino]

https://video.consilium.europa.eu/en...7-46c7790f8abe

something live to watch

update: meeting of EU leaders started at 7:36 PM CEDT

[Deleted]

lolers : https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...27343422660608

[Demolitia]

lolers : https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...27343422660608

You should look at those : https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/bre...ess-notices_en
That being said the french papers merely state that without other arrangements, the UK will become a third country which will be treated as such.
So in this case there will be checks, customs, visas etc.
It's a bit sad it comes as a surprise at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

https://video.consilium.europa.eu/en...7-46c7790f8abe

something live to watch

update: meeting of EU leaders started at 7:36 PM CEDT

I had popcorn ready and they stopped streaming before the meeting

[ranzino]

btw: dinner is served



And now for the news:
May is considering the extension of transition period. but can she serve that at home ??
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...38560061292544

May is also adamant about "take it our leave it" on brexit bill. there's no meaningful vote on brexit, if she has a say in it
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ments-says-may

DUP is not happy about extended transition.

[Kallisto]

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...57861812207617

If this is true then it's no deal, no november, nothing.

[Nigel Tufnel]

So...

Is anyone else going to get rations in?

I mean, apparently, it's all going to be fine so there's no need.

[Slant]

BBC has an interesting article. No, Dribs... this isn't for you, this is a credible source for adults.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45882360

Analysis: Three scenarios
By BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg

The worst-case scenario for Downing Street is that EU leaders are so fed up with the UK position and what they see as the lack of reality, that on Thursday, they formally say they will hold a no-deal summit in November.

That would switch them on to a track that would be hard to get off once in motion.

One EU source expressed disbelief that Theresa May thought she could turn up on Wednesday with nothing new. It was simply crazy, in their view, to suggest that the ball can be lobbed back into the EU court.

The best case - and it seems right now unlikely - scenario is for the EU to say that there is a deal in reach, so let's get a date in the diary for the sign-off next month.

What seems more likely is a holding position. EU leaders could give some kinds of vague noises that both sides still want to pursue negotiations, so that the talks can get going again.

One Brussels source said that while it is "time for choices", they could give the prime minister space and time to build a majority at home for a deal.

But hey... tick tock, eh Dribs? I know you keep repeating it to rile us up, but it's sad that you're really counting down the time your fellow countrymen have until they face the consequences of your madness. I'm just glad we'll soon have a hard border between us and people like you. Thank fuck for that, actually.

For the rest, come on over. We'll find space for you.

[dribbles]

But hey... tick tock, eh Dribs? I know you keep repeating it to rile us up, but it's sad that you're really counting down the time your fellow countrymen have until they face the consequences of your madness. I'm just glad we'll soon have a hard border between us and people like you. Thank fuck for that, actually.

For the rest, come on over. We'll find space for you.

Except the problem is, they are still all coming the other way to escape European tyranny, how many persecuted EU refugees is the UK expected to take?

We have much in common Slanty and I too wish for your hard border, can't come soon enough. And the reality is the UK/EU are no nearer a deal today than yesterday or 2 years ago. And the clock ticks and tocks but not for much longer now.

You must get fed up of my told you so's, you should ignore me and keep your head in those fluffy, EU regulated, fluffy clouds.

Let's look forwards, not back.

The UK after Brexit

Freedom day is the day we leave the EU. It is one of those curious cul de sacs of history that the UK, a fiercely independent and democratic nation, spent 47 years with increasing shackles over our decisions in the EU. Like Gulliver, the UK found herself bound by more and more rules and regulations from Brussels, tied down by something UK voters were told was just a trading bloc....

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/10...-after-brexit/

....Long live freedom. There is nothing to fear, and everything to welcome. I want my country to be self governing once again. Then if the politicians get it wrong, the people can kick them out and try with a new team. All the time we live under Brussels we have to accept the inflexibility and injustice of their laws.

[Kronik85]

So...

Is anyone else going to get rations in?

I mean, apparently, it's all going to be fine so there's no need.

Well one of our biggest exporters to lose out on Brexit will be Welsh Lamb, so next spring it should be pretty damn cheap if they can't get it out of the country and the super markets are saturated with the stuff....so that's good? I guess. Pretty sure Fray Bentos Pies make decent bunker food providing we still have access to oven's post Brexit and they're so loaded with salt and fat they should kill you way before Brexit does!

I can't wait till our Brexit dividend of 1 spring with cheap Lamb and a short life of Fray Bentos Pies.

[ranzino]

Tess May again wants to please everyone. She told Leo Varadkar she accepts there could be no time limit to the Irish backstop. but she also now denies the idea of extension of transition period. so what ? if the idea of extension is dead, negotiations are over.

[Kallisto]

She needs to resign and everyone with two working legs needs to go to the march on Saturday.

[Nymrohd]

Tess May again wants to please everyone. She told Leo Varadkar she accepts there could be no time limit to the Irish backstop. but she also now denies the idea of extension of transition period. so what ? if the idea of extension is dead, negotiations are over.

I mean she is still acting as if it is Chequers or nothing.

[Slant]

I mean she is still acting as if it is Chequers or nothing.

I'd like to think she's a sane person and actually has a plan in the back of her head. But the longer this drags on, the more she looks like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming truck...

[Nymrohd]

I'd like to think she's a sane person and actually has a plan in the back of her head. But the longer this drags on, the more she looks like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming truck...

I mean her entire stance, if ignoring the trouble at her parliament would look like she was playing chicken with the EU and expecting them to give up first.