[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

Short term collateral damage, Kallisto. Irrelevant in the scheme of things. Look to the long term.

/sarcasm

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

[ati87]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

How sad is it that at this point you are still trying to deflect when every negative prediction is coming out true.

[Pann]

How sad is it that at this point you are still trying to deflect when every negative prediction is coming out true.

I am not trying to deflect anything. There are plenty of negative predictions that are proving to be true or looking as if they will become true however that list is not an accurate representation of the Brexit pitfalls. I realise that for many people, especially in this thread, that being accurate is less important than saying how shit Brexit is going to be however it didn't work before the referendum and will not work now.

[Slant]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

This argument pisses me off in some way. It's not that you intend for it to piss me off, so I'm not having a go at you but... this whole "exaggerating the downsides doesn't help" is really... making a huge assumption. It assumes that we're automatically lying and you cap your expectations at a certain limit. Anything beyond that must be wrong and therefor a lie.

Fact is, when shit goes bad and someone says it's bad, sometimes it's not an exaggeration but the actual description of shit going bad. Should we not warn? Should we not point out things for fear of somehow... ruffling a few feathers or making people scared? Should we know downplay everything because some people might now actually worry about their livelihoods?

Basically, this argument shifts the debate from fact to... being nice. Remain supporters don't have to "learn to be nice" just so you're not scared. Quite the opposite, perhaps you should find out why they're scared instead of automatically assuming they must be hyperboling.

[Pann]

This argument pisses me off in some way. It's not that you intend for it to piss me off, so I'm not having a go at you but... this whole "exaggerating the downsides doesn't help" is really... making a huge assumption. It assumes that we're automatically lying and you cap your expectations at a certain limit. Anything beyond that must be wrong and therefor a lie.

Fact is, when shit goes bad and someone says it's bad, sometimes it's not an exaggeration but the actual description of shit going bad. Should we not warn? Should we not point out things for fear of somehow... ruffling a few feathers or making people scared? Should we know downplay everything because some people might now actually worry about their livelihoods?

Basically, this argument shifts the debate from fact to... being nice. Remain supporters don't have to "learn to be nice" just so you're not scared. Quite the opposite, perhaps you should find out why they're scared instead of automatically assuming they must be hyperboling.

I am sorry that focussing on facts pisses you off although to be honest this comes as no surprise.

There are certain things in that list that are exaggerated and wrong and they will continue to exaggerated and wrong whatever happens. You know like your insulin bollocks?

[Mayhem]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

What exaggerations are you talking about?

[Slant]

I am sorry that focussing on facts pisses you off although to be honest this comes as no surprise.

There are certain things in that list that are exaggerated and wrong and they will continue to exaggerated and wrong whatever happens. You know like your insulin bollocks?

You are not focusing on facts if you claim these are exaggerations. That is the problem. You are downplaying it. But hey, you'll have a chance to find it out yourself. It's not like I'm making this shit up. This is all legal stuff. I get it, you don't want to read through laws, it's boring and dry... but if you wanted to, you could actually verify everything I said. Except, it's much easier to go "you're just exaggerating", isn't it.

I'll put you on the list of "I told you so IOUs", mate. We'll speak again April 1st.

[Mayhem]

I am not trying to deflect anything. There are plenty of negative predictions that are proving to be true or looking as if they will become true however that list is not an accurate representation of the Brexit pitfalls. I realise that for many people, especially in this thread, that being accurate is less important than saying how shit Brexit is going to be however it didn't work before the referendum and will not work now.

Go on and educate the people in this thread. A simple "this is not true" isn't all that convincing.

[Pann]

What exaggerations are you talking about?

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties.

The EU is not obligated to immediately to put up hard borders and it is simply impossible to do so in Ireland. Nor does everything entering the EU from the UK have to be checked.

JIT systems will be impacted but they will not cease. The M20 being part of operation stack is true. Food exports stopping because they are perishable is possible but questionable.

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not.

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets and the EU is building more Border Inspection Points to deal with potential problems.

There might be issues with importing medical equipment and medicines so this point is probably correct. However stating that the health minister came out said that no deal may kill people is an exaggeration as the truth is that refused to rule out that no deal Brexit might kill people. Which in reality means that he refused to answer certain questions.

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By all means point out the negatives of Brexit. Shout them from the roofs for all to hear! But don't make stuff up.

[Deleted]

That pretty much sums up the Brexit crowd really. They are angry at the EU, because the Daily Mail has told them to be for 40 years. So if Brexit doesn't fix everything, they are still going to be angry at the EU because somehow it will be their fault. They won't take any resposibility for the mess of their own making, because why should they when none of the leaders of Leave bothered to?

They should be asking where Reese-Mogg has actually fucking been for the last two years. Because this over-bred self-serving stain on the crinkly hankie of history should have been front and centre organising, arguing and negotiating the Brexit that he was so damn certain we needed. Instead he stepped back and did absolutely nothing except complain that others were doing it wrong.

If there were any justice, he should be getting vilified by the entire country. People on both sides should be demanding that he be driven out of politics permanently. It's the equivalent of Churchill demanding we fight the Nazis, before buggering off to his country house for the course of the war, occasionally issuing statements about how badly we are doing it. While moving his assets to the US just in case. His cowardice sickens me, regardless of what I think of the position he's taken.

I haven't added anything to this thread but thought I would address JRM. He has been chairing various investment groups and collective interests that in the past 18 months have almost exclusively done their business in EIRE, US and far east.
One of his closest associates from the somerset capital investment group was bragging about how this weeks chaos has made even more wealthy.
Unfortunately many leavers here in the UK see him as a saviour and can't grasp that he has a vested interest in the uncertainty (betting vs the pound) and thus has not and will not step up to the plate to "fix" the problem even if he could.

[Mayhem]

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties.

The EU is not obligated to immediately to put up hard borders and it is simply impossible to do so in Ireland. Nor does everything entering the EU from the UK have to be checked.

JIT systems will be impacted but they will not cease. The M20 being part of operation stack is true. Food exports stopping because they are perishable is possible but questionable.

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not.

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets and the EU is building more Border Inspection Points to deal with potential problems.

There might be issues with importing medical equipment and medicines so this point is probably correct. However stating that the health minister came out said that no deal may kill people is an exaggeration as the truth is that refused to rule out that no deal Brexit might kill people. Which in reality means that he refused to answer certain questions.

I'm a bit sceptical here as I've heard different stuff, so could you provide sources to the points you just brought up?

[Dizzeeyooo]

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties

international treaties between who?

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets

Documentary, identity and physical checks on live animals and products of animal origin would have to take place on 100% of consignments to the Single Market, unless you think the BVA is lying?

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not

you should probably tell David Rutley that his job does not actually involve protecting food supplies in the case of no deal, it might be a relief to him

[Deleted]

I haven't added anything to this thread but thought I would address JRM. He has been chairing various investment groups and collective interests that in the past 18 months have almost exclusively done their business in EIRE, US and far east.
One of his closest associates from the somerset capital investment group was bragging about how this weeks chaos has made even more wealthy.
Unfortunately many leavers here in the UK see him as a saviour and can't grasp that he has a vested interest in the uncertainty (betting vs the pound) and thus has not and will not step up to the plate to "fix" the problem even if he could.

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties.

The EU is not obligated to immediately to put up hard borders and it is simply impossible to do so in Ireland. Nor does everything entering the EU from the UK have to be checked.

JIT systems will be impacted but they will not cease. The M20 being part of operation stack is true. Food exports stopping because they are perishable is possible but questionable.

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not.

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets and the EU is building more Border Inspection Points to deal with potential problems.

There might be issues with importing medical equipment and medicines so this point is probably correct. However stating that the health minister came out said that no deal may kill people is an exaggeration as the truth is that refused to rule out that no deal Brexit might kill people. Which in reality means that he refused to answer certain questions.

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By all means point out the negatives of Brexit. Shout them from the roofs for all to hear! But don't make stuff up.

FYI the minister is called David Rutley. His official title is Food minister and his mandate is to protect British food interests during brexit, including any potential rationing but I am led to believe the rationing isn't due to shortfall but rather fears of public hoarding and us having a repeat of the scenes during the snow when in some places you could drive 50 miles and not find a loaf of bread.

[Pann]

international treaties between who?

What?

Documentary, identity and physical checks on live animals and products of animal origin would have to take place on 100% of consignments to the Single Market, unless you think the BVA is lying?

Where does it say that these checks need to carried out by vets? The claim was that all animals need to carried out by vets and there are not enough vets in Europe to carry them out. This is an exaggeration.

you should probably tell David Rutley that his job does not actually involve protecting food supplies in the case of no deal, it might be a relief to him

Tell him what? That some people on the internet think he is the rationing minister? Okay!

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FYI the minister is called David Rutley. His official title is Food minister and his mandate is to protect British food interests during brexit, including any potential rationing but I am led to believe the rationing isn't due to shortfall but rather fears of public hoarding and us having a repeat of the scenes during the snow when in some places you could drive 50 miles and not find a loaf of bread.

I am well aware of who David Rutley is and his position. To claim that he is the rationing minister is an exaggeration.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Where does it say that these checks need to carried out by vets?

All exports to countries inside the Single Market would require an Export Health Certificate (EHC) signed by an Official Veterinarian (OV) creating an additional demand on veterinary capacity

There would be no agreed “backstop” in place to avoid the need for veterinary checks on live animals and products of animal origin at the land border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Official Veterinarians (OV) would be required to undertake these checks

what do you think a veterinarian is?

What?

doing a Nadine again?

[Deleted]

You are quite correct claiming he is the rationing minister would be an exaggeration but can you concede in his role as Food minister he is the person who will recommend rationing if required? And thus concede that whether it a small chance or not there is a real enough danger of impact to food supplies that the government have specifically appointed a person to safeguard food supplies?

[Pann]

what do you think a veterinarian is?

The government think differently, but appreciate that they probably know less than you.

"If the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 with no deal in place, EHCs would be required for exports of all animal products and live animals from the UK to the EU. Consignments would need to travel through a Border Inspection Post (BIP) within the EU. EHCs would need to be signed by an Official Veterinarian or authorised signatory following inspection of the consignment.

To prepare for the potential increase in EHC numbers, work is being undertaken to make the application process simpler, and ensure there is enough capacity amongst appropriately trained veterinarians or authorised signatories to approve the additional certificates. Stakeholders will be informed of any changes to the existing process."

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...no-brexit-deal

Oh, and by the way I'm still waiting for you to explain why countries with different regulations are unable to trade with one another.

[Dizzeeyooo]

The government think differently, but appreciate that they probably know less than you

I'll trust the opinion of the British Veterinary Association over the current UK government any day of the week

Oh, and by the way I'm still waiting for you to explain why countries with different regulations are unable to trade with one another.

and i'm still waiting for you to stop doing such a good Nadine Dorries impression

[Pann]

You are quite correct claiming he is the rationing minister would be an exaggeration but can you concede in his role as Food minister he is the person who will recommend rationing if required? And thus concede that whether it a small chance or not there is a real enough danger of impact to food supplies that the government have specifically appointed a person to safeguard food supplies?

This is my point. By all means point out that it is bad that someone is needed in this position but don't exaggerate what his role is. When Brexit negatives are exaggerated it is all too easy to dismiss these concerns as project fear.

Just to clarify my position a little further. I want the draw backs and pitfalls of Brexit to be out there for all to see, I want them to be presented in easily understandable and verifiable points not be drowned out in endless semantics because remain has, once again, over stated its points.

I am firm believer that if you give people truthful and accurate information they will be able to reach an informed decision. If an argument against Brexit is not able to stand on its own and needs to be exaggerated then it is not worth making (there are plenty others that do not need embellishment) and by doing so you(we) only make it more difficult for people to discern what is true and what is not.


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I'll trust the opinion of the British Veterinary Association over the current UK government any day of the week


and i'm still waiting for you to stop doing such a good Nadine Dorries impression

Good for you.

Grow up!

[Dizzeeyooo]

Good for you.

Grow up!

hopefully at least some of her constituents can give her that advice too, she might stop sounding so fucking stupid all the time