View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #9841
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Because the ruling only came out this morning.
    And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  2. #9842
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?
    hopefully he notices you, since he seems to be completely ignoring me

  3. #9843
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    If the UK doesn't comply with the core values of the EU (democracy etc.), it's voice in the Council can be suspended, just like Hungary isn't allowed to vote on issues at the moment. It's not like the EU cannot defend itself against adverse behaviour.
    I don't see how this would remotely qualify as not complying with core values and call for a suspension of a voice in the council. Right now Poland and Hungary have each other's back to prevent it, and that's enough, so I don't see this realistically happening for the UK.

  4. #9844
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?
    The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago. Their opinion came out extremely fast by legal standards

  5. #9845
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    I mean, the commission made a whole page debunking myths about the EU. The vast majority of them come from British tabloids. A big shift in mentalities and discourse is needed here.
    The EU does need changes, and it is going to be an uncomfortable discussion because every Member State wants something different. If this is going to happen, we need UK politics to grow up quite a bit.
    The EU needs a lot more transparency and to become a whole lot more faster with bringing information to the public. Information coming out how things really work, information coming out now when things are decided but when they are being debated. The good part is ever since the last two years efforts have been made to ramp this up increasingly. Opponents of course just dismiss this as propaganda while gladly citing falsehoods and foreign news agencies as RT as reliable.

    I believe in part that a huge factor is that most of Europe leans closers to a French structure of politics compared to the British one. Where as in the rest of Europe we noticed the classic parties of old being more and more over taken by new political movements and ideologies, where as in the UK it remains the classic two in charge with other smaller ones propping either one of them to become relevant.

  6. #9846
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    if the Government had not fought so hard to prevent the issue ever reaching the ECJ, it would have been available much sooner
    Because the will of the people was to leave the EU, which ignored all warnings it wasn't a super safe idea?
    A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal?
    Honestly I don't know. UK politics don't appear to be a beacon of wisdom lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    The EU needs a lot more transparency and to become a whole lot more faster with bringing information to the public. Information coming out how things really work, information coming out now when things are decided but when they are being debated. The good part is ever since the last two years efforts have been made to ramp this up increasingly. Opponents of course just dismiss this as propaganda while gladly citing falsehoods and foreign news agencies as RT as reliable.

    I believe in part that a huge factor is that most of Europe leans closers to a French structure of politics compared to the British one. Where as in the rest of Europe we noticed the classic parties of old being more and more over taken by new political movements and ideologies, where as in the UK it remains the classic two in charge with other smaller ones propping either one of them to become relevant.
    It does have a lot of it. It has daily press briefings for the EC, EP and Council, all the agendas and most minutes are publicly available. Most meetings are streamed. Barnier's office is publishing the latest drafts as soon as they are done. People just don't look at it, and national news outlet don't report it.
    Do we need a EU tv channel? Nobody would watch regulatory parliamentary work. It's boring as hell.

    edit:
    Go browse through this:
    Council: this one is a bit slow as they don't meet all the time : https://www.consilium.europa.eu/
    Parliament: you can watch plenary and committee sessions here, together with their agendas and minutes. You can also check what your MEPs have been doing (and find out Nigel Farrage has done fuck all over the years, besides collecting a paycheck for trolling occasionally, for instance). http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en
    Commission: pick your language, pick your topic and see what's in the pipeline: http://ec.europa.eu/
    Last edited by Demolitia; 2018-12-10 at 07:26 PM.

  7. #9847
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?
    I have given a factual answer to the poster's question. But what would you like me to say? What kind of an answer did you have in mind to your leading question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago. Their opinion came out extremely fast by legal standards
    Indeed. As was the government's Supreme Court appeal.

    Just to add it is entirely possible due to schedules and the complexities of the question before the ECJ that even without the UK government appeal that this morning would have been the earliest date that court could have ruled.
    Last edited by Pann; 2018-12-10 at 07:28 PM.

  8. #9848
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago
    the point was that the UK government spent a vast amount of time, effort and money trying to prevent that request from happening in the first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal
    the people who made the request were nothing to do with the UK government
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2018-12-10 at 07:34 PM.

  9. #9849
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Because the will of the people was to leave the EU, which ignored all warnings it wasn't a super safe idea?
    A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal?
    Honestly I don't know. UK politics don't appear to be a beacon of wisdom lately.
    Essentially the government's hands are tied by the referendum vote and as a result there is/was no way they could be seen to support this case going ahead. I suspect that the Supreme Court challenge was little more than going through the motions and that they knew it was bound to fail. I, also, would not be surprised if many members of the government are secretly very happy at this morning's judgement.

  10. #9850
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    the point was that the UK government spent a vast amount of time, effort and money trying to prevent that request from happening
    There are a great many questions you should as the UK government before you get to that.
    Why wasn't a thorough legal, regulatory and economic impact assessment not ordered on day one and published as soon as it was available, for starters.

  11. #9851
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    There are a great many questions you should as the UK government before you get to that
    asking the current UK government anything is pointless if the answer is not something they agree with, today makes that perfectly clear

  12. #9852
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Essentially the government's hands are tied by the referendum vote and as a result there is/was no way they could be seen to support this case going ahead. I suspect that the Supreme Court challenge was little more than going through the motions and that they knew it was bound to fail. I, also, would not be surprised if many members of the government are secretly very happy at this morning's judgement.
    Yet here we are, facing the wall and desperately looking for a way out of the mess. Everyone is going to lose, due to political games, utter cowardice and stubbornness. Thanks, Great Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    asking the current UK government anything is pointless if the answer is not something they agree with, today makes that perfectly clear
    Not today, the last two years. If not longer but I never really looked at it before that.

  13. #9853
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Not today, the last two years. If not longer but I never really looked at it before that.
    good point

  14. #9854
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Yet here we are, facing the wall and desperately looking for a way out of the mess. Everyone is going to lose, due to political games, utter cowardice and stubbornness. Thanks, Great Britain.
    I am not sure what you're getting at here. The UK had a vote, you and I might not like the result but you cannot ignore democracy when it doesn't go your way.

  15. #9855
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I am not sure what you're getting at here. The UK had a vote, you and I might not like the result but you cannot ignore democracy when it doesn't go your way.
    I am frustrated by the decision but respect it. I find it however amusing that you say this on the day PM May decides to cancel/postpone the "meaningful" vote because it doesn't go her way.
    You have been rather precise in all your posts, fighting for fairness, and pushing people to be accurate in their comments, which I respect. UK politics have been the exact opposite of what you stand for, however, and beyond our frustration at seeing you leave for no good reason, we are mostly making fun of the absurdity of your national politics. Not saying ours are perfect, but under the circumstance, nothing about the implementation past the brexit vote has made any sense.
    If you want to leave, go, but your government and houses still don't seem to agree on what this means, 2 years later.

  16. #9856
    I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

    Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

    A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.

  17. #9857
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

    Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

    A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.
    Maybe a slap in the face and reality check are necessary. The UK won't get nearly as good a deal if it has to re-apply as it has now. Looking forward to the Euro ?

  18. #9858
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    I am frustrated by the decision but respect it. I find it however amusing that you say this on the day PM May decides to cancel/postpone the "meaningful" vote because it doesn't go her way.
    You have been rather precise in all your posts, fighting for fairness, and pushing people to be accurate in their comments, which I respect. UK politics have been the exact opposite of what you stand for, however, and beyond our frustration at seeing you leave for no good reason, we are mostly making fun of the absurdity of your national politics. Not saying ours are perfect, but under the circumstance, nothing about the implementation past the brexit vote has made any sense.
    If you want to leave, go, but your government and houses still don't seem to agree on what this means, 2 years later.
    That's a fair comment, she has not come out of this well at all. However whilst I think the vote should go ahead as planned I don't see any way through the impasse at the moment and perhaps trying to get some reassurances from EU leaders is the best way to go. But really I dunno.

    Again, that's a fair comment overall UK politicians have painted themselves in a very poor light over the last few years. Although I am being pedantic I disagree that the UK is leaving for no good reason, I think that 17.4million votes is a good reason, despite the fact that I disagree with it, and one that must be respected. With that said I believe that democracy is an ever evolving process and I do not subscribe to the theory that one result is set in stone and that we are not allowed to change our minds. However there are significant stumbling blocks blocking the path to another referendum (although this morning's judgement may have removed one or two) one of which is, my pet hate, the attitude of some of my fellow remainers who seem to believe that the way they voted somehow makes them superior.

    That's fair enough making fun of our national politics believe me the same is going on in the UK but I would say that certain people in this thread don't know where to draw the line.

    All I can say on no-one agreeing how to leave is that it is extremely complex and I have... no answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I now believe a hard brexit is the best way to go about this...

    Not because a hard brexit gives the UK more sovereignty, or has them better off economically. Both of those are fictions in my mind.

    A hard brexit would simply be better because any kind of brexit deal will result in a new status quo. The remaining ties to the single market will remove urgency to rejoin. I firnly believe that if a hard brexit is employed, with all its pains, the UK will be ready to make a bid to properly rejoin the EU.
    That's all well and good but how do you preserve the Good Friday Agreement with a hard Brexit?

  19. #9859
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That's a fair comment, she has not come out of this well at all. However whilst I think the vote should go ahead as planned I don't see any way through the impasse at the moment and perhaps trying to get some reassurances from EU leaders is the best way to go. But really I dunno.

    Again, that's a fair comment overall UK politicians have painted themselves in a very poor light over the last few years. Although I am being pedantic I disagree that the UK is leaving for no good reason, I think that 17.4million votes is a good reason, despite the fact that I disagree with it, and one that must be respected. With that said I believe that democracy is an ever evolving process and I do not subscribe to the theory that one result is set in stone and that we are not allowed to change our minds. However there are significant stumbling blocks blocking the path to another referendum (although this morning's judgement may have removed one or two) one of which is, my pet hate, the attitude of some of my fellow remainers who seem to believe that the way they voted somehow makes them superior.

    That's fair enough making fun of our national politics believe me the same is going on in the UK but I would say that certain people in this thread don't know where to draw the line.

    All I can say on no-one agreeing how to leave is that it is extremely complex and I have... no answers.
    It has taken 2 years to get reassurances as far as the EU can stretch them.
    If you want to respect the vote and get on with it, that's fine. But from the beginning the EU has been straightforward, has given you one point of contact, Barnier, and has made it clear what the red lines were, and stuck to them. All member states have stood behind it, always.
    The EU has switftly produced coherent legal document all the way through the process, while the UK has been indecisive. Even the "legal advice" hinted at last week is a joke.
    I understand it's not a popular decision, and it's complex, and it's political suicide, but that's only our business up to a point.
    The turnover in May's administration and the division in you parliament, frankly, looks like Trump-grade madness from this side of the pond. Except it's extremely annoying because it affects us too. The worst part in this whole shit is that whisky prices might rise and you sure as hell make extremely pretty and interesting ones. Your beer is boring though.

  20. #9860
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That's all well and good but how do you preserve the Good Friday Agreement with a hard Brexit?
    If we consider the idea that rather than going straight into sectarian violence but instead there being a push for Irish unification then May's deal, hard Brexit and no deal are all functionally the same as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. This is why the DUP no longer care about a Corbyn led government, all results cause the end of The Union and the beginnings of unification.

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