[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

Kinda difficult when every argument about Brexit inevitably devolves into an argument about immigration, which has nothing to do with the EU.

I think you're right that immigration was a driver or at least an important reason for many people who voted leave but I must say that is not my experience that every argument about Brexit devolves into an argument about immigration and I have found that when it does it is possible to make a positive argument for immigration.

[Deleted]

Rep farming in wow made me miss this yesterday:

After my conversation with Theresa May, our positions remain far away. My Government will always defend the interests of Spain. If there are no changes, we will veto Brexit.

This is the issue of Gibraltar, which was raised a few days ago

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/22...09_242575.html

This week both the Spanish prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, and the country’s foreign minister, Josep Borrell, made clear they would not sign off on the UK’s draft withdrawal agreement on Sunday if Article 184 within the text was not modified to make clear that negotiations on the future of the EU-UK relationship would not include Gibraltar. Instead, Madrid wants separate, bilateral negotiations on Gibraltar after Brexit, covering issues such as the price of tobacco products, the fate of cross-border workers, environmental concerns and cooperation on police and border control issues. Madrid and London this week reached preliminary agreements on these points, set out in four memorandums of understanding (MoUs) and a tax deal.

European Commission sources said on Thursday that the issue of Gibraltar, as well as others that have been raised by EU member states, would be resolved with resolutions appended to the main document. For now, the Political Declaration has also eliminated any direct reference to Article 184.

Note that the agreement on withdrawal only requires qualified majority. So this is more of an affront to tomorrow's summit, which could be cancelled should this not be solved.
I suspect not much will come out of this: it's a question of guaranteeing the EU will meet Spanish demands on separating the Rock from any future trade agreement, all the while not triggering any question of sovereignty, which the UK is, obviously, prepared to rebuke.

So... diplomacy should have it covered. But I think this minor annoyance exemplifies how these processes are hugely complex. The insistence that a future trade agreement is easy peasy, and straightforward falls flat when a simple territorial dispute (which abound in Europe) can make or break it so easily.

[Deleted]

This forum is an outlet for propaganda of every nature. It's, generally, not about seducing the other, but about rallying your brethren.

You are indeed right. The only thing that I would truly love to know is, who are your brethren?

[Deleted]

You are indeed right. The only thing that I would truly love to know is, who are your brethren?

I would like to know that too. Allegiances are expensive to maintain.

[Deleted]

Allegiances are expensive to maintain.

If you can not ride two horses at once, you should not be in the circus.

[Mekh]

If you can not ride two horses at once, you should not be in the circus.

That's clever and I will steal it.

[Deleted]

That's clever and I will steal it.

It is a known phrase.

[Mekh]

It is a known phrase.

Google has a bunch of hits, but all I can find on the first number of pages is about the same song's lyrics.

[Deleted]

Google has a bunch of hits, but all I can find on the first number of pages is about the same song's lyrics.

It was originally used in politics.

[Noradin]

That makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever Dribbles posts is solely Dribbles' responsibility and nothing to do with me or anyone else in this thread.

Then why is anyone "bashing" the UK your responsibility in any sense unless you yourself do the bashing.
Take your own advice, hypocrite.

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Why is complaining about the poor quality in this thread useless noise? We are all participants and as such we should be able to raise our game.

Because the way you do it lowers the quality of posts in this thread.

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It was originally used in politics.

In which language and by whom?

[Deleted]

In which langauge and by whom?

I do not know which person uttered the phrase first, but I do know that it was uttered first in the United Kingdom.

It has become a rather known phrase in geopolitical circles, a symbol of shifting nature of alliances between political entities.

[Slant]

Btw, those three blokes (I don't want to link every video they do, but they're certainly watchable) mentioned almost in passing how... 18 nations already rejected the UK WTO schedule proposal. If anyone ever had any doubt about "out there they'll be begging us for a trade deal" should pay attention to that. In business there is no loyalty but to money. I hope the Brexiteers remember this before they start a campaign complaining how the other Commonwealth nations backstabbed and exploited them.

[Deleted]

If you can not ride two horses at once, you should not be in the circus.

Fitting in is simple enough though duplicity. Some day I'll find a tribe that I enjoy fully in honesty. In the meantime, I guess I have you doubting.

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This is the issue of Gibraltar, which was raised a few days ago

I suspect not much will come out of this: it's a question of guaranteeing the EU will meet Spanish demands on separating the Rock from any future trade agreement, all the while not triggering any question of sovereignty, which the UK is, obviously, prepared to rebuke.

So... diplomacy should have it covered.

Crisis averted. Sunday summit is go.
May gives way over Gibraltar after Spain's 'veto' threat

[Gibblewink]

I think the EU stance was always to give the Gibraltar question over to Spain and the UK but it was changed at the last moment during the meetings between May and Juncker without consulting Spain. If so I can actually understand Sanchez being pissed off.

[Deleted]

I think the EU stance was always to give the Gibraltar question over to Spain and the UK but it was changed at the last moment during the meetings between May and Juncker without consulting Spain. If so I can actually understand Sanchez being pissed off.

They do say that Article 184 was introduced without Spain knowing and deem it backhanded. The text remains unchanged though; what they've agreed to is that every party understands that the text as is meets the Spanish demand. It is a stun for domestic consumption in Spain.

[Vankrys]

Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.

right. time to drop that rhetoric. Project fear is about to become everyday reality.

[Pann]

right. time to drop that rhetoric. Project fear is about to become everyday reality.

No, it's not. The whole problem with project fear is that it was either grossly exaggerated or completely untrue.

[ranzino]

naah, the deal is so dead now with the Gibraltar issue. if UK wants to keep Gibraltar they need to wage a war or will have to cancel Brexit.

[Slant]

Crisis averted. Sunday summit is go.
May gives way over Gibraltar after Spain's 'veto' threat

Not surprised, to be honest. She's desperate. So she makes for a good partner in negotiations. /s

[Huehuecoyotl]

No, it's not. The whole problem with project fear is that it was either grossly exaggerated or completely untrue.

And you know that because you've come back from the future and seen the results? Or because you are a super-genius AI that has mapped all the permutations out much better than the experts that are predicting the issues? Just so I'm clear why you are stating this as if it's a proven fact.