View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #10001
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Based on EC advice though, which is... amusing.
    Courts do not work that way, they don't act on anyone's advice, they rule on law and the evidence presented before them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Maybe - but again, my point was that, per the Indie article's narrative, the High Court should not be voiding any results based on this case.
    The fact that the referendum was advisory means that High Court cannot void the result. However if they do find that there is serious wrong doing which would have resulted in the referendum being declared void then I think that the result should at least be looked at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    I wish.
    No need to wish it is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's not like I don't have some misgivings over Arron Banks, it just seems to me that the other side is engaged in far worse.
    Like what? So far no evidence has arisen to even suggest that this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's over £8M that was used to fund some of the Brexit campaigns. The EC said it was suspicious over the source of the money, and here we are.
    True, however we do not know the full extent of the accusations against Banks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    This is the same Commission that doesn't need to hear both sides of the story and all that, though. I guess it just boils down to my having far less faith in the independence of these bodies than you.
    The commission listened to Patel's side of the story and found there was no case to answer.

  2. #10002
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Courts do not work that way, they don't act on anyone's advice, they rule on law and the evidence presented before them.
    I mean Vote Leave, not the courts.

    I think the rest... "I guess it just boils down to my having far less faith in the independence of these bodies than you."
    Still not tired of winning.

  3. #10003
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    I mean Vote Leave, not the courts.

    I think the rest... "I guess it just boils down to my having far less faith in the independence of these bodies than you."
    Ah, gotcha.

    Our legal system isn't perfect and it does make mistakes however I do not believe that the judiciary is politically influenced.

  4. #10004
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Macron is unpopular because he is aligning more with hard capitalism ideas, like making it easier to hire and fire workers. French population is attached to its very heavy worker protection laws, which may or may not be why our industries aren't as competitive as they could be.

    The UK have far less worker protection programs, and the UK government is far less generous than French government regarding unemployment benefits. Of course, the French don't like when their cushy life is taken away, but that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do in order to remain competitive.

    How to you lean in the balance of industry competitiveness vs worker protection laws?
    I mean it is increasingly obvious that the French economy cannot sustain the level of welfare the French are used to unless something changes. Macron is doing exactly what he said he would working on the mandate of an electoral victory.
    Of course the question remains, is the lack of competitiveness in France because of worker protection laws?
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  5. #10005
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Macron is unpopular because he is aligning more with hard capitalism ideas, like making it easier to hire and fire workers. French population is attached to its very heavy worker protection laws, which may or may not be why our industries aren't as competitive as they could be.

    The UK have far less worker protection programs, and the UK government is far less generous than French government regarding unemployment benefits. Of course, the French don't like when their cushy life is taken away, but that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do in order to remain competitive.

    How to you lean in the balance of industry competitiveness vs worker protection laws?
    Over zealous EU employee protection laws are terrible for the people they are supposed to help and terrible for industry who have to compete in global markets.

    To see how bad they are for workers you only have to look at the unemployment figures in many EU countries. They prevent workers from being able to work by disincentivising employers from hiring. That is less likely in the UK now, even moreso after Brexit.

    They are bad for everyone. Another reason for a no deal Brexit and to get out of the EU and its protectionist policies.

    To pay someone in France 2000 euro a month costs the employer what about 4000 euro? Crazy, and they daren't fire them. The barman who works for 6 months on the med during the summer can expect 90% of his pay for sitting on his arse through the winter, year in year out, paid for by his summer employer. That still true? Crazy.

    But the French are rioting because of high EU imposed "green tax" fuel prices/policies no? Not worker protections... At least that is how it is being reported here.

    Even before the riots Macron had the lowest approval rating of any French president, I bet its even worse today. How long has he got left? It is like a race to the bottom between Merkel, May and Macron - hard to know who is winning that. The EU has destroyed the competence of national politicians as the good people choose other career avenues.

    Brexit will fix that for the UK, obviously not for EU nations unless of course they leave too, and the decision of national politicians matter once again.

  6. #10006
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Over zealous EU employee protection laws are terrible for the people they are supposed to help and terrible for industry who have to compete in global markets.

    To see how bad they are for workers you only have to look at the unemployment figures in many EU countries. They prevent workers from being able to work by disincentivising employers from hiring. That is less likely in the UK now, even moreso after Brexit.

    They are bad for everyone. Another reason for a no deal Brexit and to get out of the EU and its protectionist policies.

    To pay someone in France 2000 euro a month costs the employer what about 4000 euro? Crazy, and they daren't fire them. The barman who works for 6 months on the med during the summer can expect 90% of his pay for sitting on his arse through the winter, year in year out, paid for by his summer employer. That still true? Crazy.

    But the French are rioting because of high EU imposed "green tax" fuel prices/policies no? Not worker protections... At least that is how it is being reported here.

    Even before the riots Macron had the lowest approval rating of any French president, I bet its even worse today. How long has he got left? It is like a race to the bottom between Merkel, May and Macron - hard to know who is winning that. The EU has destroyed the competence of national politicians as the good people choose other career avenues.

    Brexit will fix that for the UK, obviously not for EU nations unless of course they leave too, and the decision of national politicians matter once again.
    Approval ratings are not necessarily indicative of competency. Implementing long-term beneficial policies to remain competitive generally results in lower approval ratings, just like implementing obviously pointless ones. Isn't that one of the arguments used by leave? That there might be some shortfalls after Brexit, but the UK will ultimately benefit? That, too, would lead to a drop in approval ratings.
    Those things are really only indicative of how one's work is perceived, not how well it is done in general. A populist giving handouts to the people bankrupting the government will have incredible approval ratings, while someone making hard, but necessary decisions will have a low one. But if you just look at the ratings, you cannot extract such information at all.

  7. #10007
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Over zealous EU employee protection laws are terrible for the people they are supposed to help and terrible for industry who have to compete in global markets.

    To see how bad they are for workers you only have to look at the unemployment figures in many EU countries. They prevent workers from being able to work by disincentivising employers from hiring. That is less likely in the UK now, even moreso after Brexit.

    They are bad for everyone. Another reason for a no deal Brexit and to get out of the EU and its protectionist policies.

    To pay someone in France 2000 euro a month costs the employer what about 4000 euro? Crazy, and they daren't fire them. The barman who works for 6 months on the med during the summer can expect 90% of his pay for sitting on his arse through the winter, year in year out, paid for by his summer employer. That still true? Crazy.

    But the French are rioting because of high EU imposed "green tax" fuel prices/policies no? Not worker protections... At least that is how it is being reported here.

    Even before the riots Macron had the lowest approval rating of any French president, I bet its even worse today. How long has he got left? It is like a race to the bottom between Merkel, May and Macron - hard to know who is winning that. The EU has destroyed the competence of national politicians as the good people choose other career avenues.

    Brexit will fix that for the UK, obviously not for EU nations unless of course they leave too, and the decision of national politicians matter once again.
    The EU does not have a direct role in raising taxes or setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is decided by your government, not the EU.

  8. #10008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Yes, because clearly the logical thing to do is to go right to the other extreme . There's no way I could have been making a more
    nuanced view, say about these specific circumstances.
    That's not the extreme. You don't come across as someone with nuanced views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    BTW, isn't buying votes exactly what politicians do all the damned time anyway? "Vote for me and I'll do X" is buying votes when all is said and done.
    no
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  9. #10009
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And realistically, no amount of facts can fix decades of conditioning. Which is why I cannot really blame Brexiteers that harshly. Even in my shit tier EU member country, politicians almost never blamed the EU outside of the Communist party . . .
    Is your country somewhere in the Balkans? Because the situation used to be the same.

    In Croatia, our Communist party blames the EU for everything, but thus far no mainstream political party has ever blamed the European Union for anything. They usually say that the European Union is a good framework and that we need to find our place within that framework.

    Last 2-3 years have been interesting, as there is a new political party on the scene, called the Living Wall. They are something similar to Corbyn, but also with a fair amount of antagonism towards the EU and America. They have been exploding in popularity, now they are third most popular party, will be second in time.
    Last edited by mmocf1f199c0ed; 2018-11-26 at 10:25 AM.

  10. #10010
    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    Is your country somewhere in the Balkans? Because the situation used to be the same.

    In Croatia, our Communist party blames the EU for everything, but thus far no mainstream political party has ever blamed the European Union for anything. They usually say that the European Union is a good framework and that we need to find our place within that framework.

    Last 2-3 years have been interesting, as there is a new political party on the scene, called the Living Wall. They are something similar to Corbyn, but also with a fair amount of antagonism towards the EU and America. They have been exploding in popularity, now they are third most popular party, will be second in time.
    Greece. Our Communist party are Stalinists, of course they hate NATO, the EU, the USA and everything that ever opposed the USSR. Now Greeks in general also are not particularly fond of the USA and ambivalent about NATO but before the crisis the majority was fond of the EU and even after people are at best ambivalent with most of the serious press (anyone not clearly populist) not particularly against the EU and treating everything pragmatically.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2018-11-26 at 10:31 AM.
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  11. #10011
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Greece. Our Communist party are Stalinists, of course they hate NATO, the EU, the USA and everything that ever opposed the USSR. Now Greeks in general also are not particularly fond of the USA and ambivalent about NATO but before the crisis the majority was fond of the EU and even after people are at best ambivalent with most of the serious press (anyone not clearly populist) not particularly against the EU and treating everything pragmatically.
    Which is the healthiest approach, tbh. I'm just glad that Greeks stopped the hate on Germany. :P I know someone that thought about cancelling their vacation trip to Greece back in the days of the crisis. When they returned they reported that everyone was super friendly, though. Granted, the tourist areas will be more EU friendly by nature than the Athenians, I suppose.
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  12. #10012
    Quote Originally Posted by padie View Post
    The EU does not have a direct role in raising taxes or setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is decided by your government, not the EU.
    In the eyes of Dribbles, every bad thing that happens is the fault of the EU. If it rains on a day he wants to go to the beach, then that is because the EU weather machines.

  13. #10013
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    In the eyes of Dribbles, every bad thing that happens is the fault of the EU. If it rains on a day he wants to go to the beach, then that is because the EU weather machines.
    Don't be silly. There are no weather machines. However, we do have regulation on rain consistency and frequency, which absolutely are to blame for his rainy days.
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  14. #10014
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Which is the healthiest approach, tbh. I'm just glad that Greeks stopped the hate on Germany. :P I know someone that thought about cancelling their vacation trip to Greece back in the days of the crisis. When they returned they reported that everyone was super friendly, though. Granted, the tourist areas will be more EU friendly by nature than the Athenians, I suppose.
    I think people were only unfriendly when provoked. I mean back in 2014 there was this joke circulating (I don't know if this actually happened) that some idiot tourist told the locals at the inn they were staying that they now own this place in Crete and the innkeeper pulled a rifle. Crete is like Texas, everyone has two guns or more there.

    And yes, there were some very unfortunate items on the news but let's be frank, that went both sides. Well considering Greece is one country and the publications came from a dozen others, it was quite less than even

    People are just reasonably angry at local politicians (because we always knew they were corrupt, we just didn't realize HOW corrupt they were) to let them scapegoat anyone so the political class was wiser than to try. Sadly the same was never true in the UK. There is a far ranging political crisis there. An economy that advanced, with some of the most exceptional minds in finance and with some of the best universities and private schooling in the world cannot be producing such nincompoops. Perhaps that's the problem, there is a labour shortage for brilliant management so politics ends up taking the dregs.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2018-11-26 at 11:32 AM.
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  15. #10015
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think people were only unfriendly when provoked. I mean back in 2014 there was this joke circulating (I don't know if this actually happened) that some idiot tourist told the locals at the inn they were staying that they now own this place in Crete and the innkeeper pulled a rifle. Crete is like Texas, everyone has two guns or more there.
    Well that's just rude and asking for trouble on the best days... I was more referring to the general burning of flags and calling Merkel Hitler 2.0 things that happened back then. But it doesn't matter anymore, we're all crossing our fingers that you can sort it out, though.
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  16. #10016
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Well that's just rude and asking for trouble on the best days... I was more referring to the general burning of flags and calling Merkel Hitler 2.0 things that happened back then. But it doesn't matter anymore, we're all crossing our fingers that you can sort it out, though.
    I mean there is some improvement but politics are an utter mess. They keep overshooting the required surplus so they can save money to give on election welfare instead of trying to lighten the tax burden a bit. Destroy the middle class to make things a bit more bareable for the lower class is not sustainable on the long run, someone has to create jobs. I know that if they hike up the minimum wage like they are promising without an equivalent reduction in contributions, I will have to fire people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    An additional note:

    One think that is very important for most of the EU when it comes to Brexit is how it will affect MEP elections. Honestly nothing could be better for Europhiles and constructive Eurosceptics than Remain+something happening to Trump to cut the legs under the populists but I am not holding my breath.
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  17. #10017
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by padie View Post
    The EU does not have a direct role in raising taxes or setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is decided by your government, not the EU.
    But national governments legislate under instruction of EU policy, imposing levels of taxation and regulation as a result of this.

    The amount of tax and regulation you personally, more importantly businesses, are subject to directly affects how competitive and what the growth of enterprise is.

    The EU could choose to encourage or it could stifle an economy, unfortunately it always chooses the latter. That is why the EU is so scared of an unfettered Britain just off its shores and seeks to constrain its competitive ability by binding it ad infinitum to EU rules.

    I'll just drop this in here as proof.



    Despite Brexit! Were any economists predicting that at the time of the referendum? Were they hell.
    Last edited by dribbles; 2018-11-26 at 12:00 PM.

  18. #10018
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    the first consequence of-not-so-certain HoC vote has emerged: Japan PM Shinzo Abe's visit is now postponed until january. May needs all her focus to bring the vote home, but Abe's visit was scheduled to give some support to Brexit.
    But will she even stay in office until then ?

  19. #10019
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Proof of what, did you leave yet?
    Nope. Those performance figures were produced despite the UK still being constrained by the EU ball and chain.

    Imagine again how the figures will look once our EU emancipation is complete and we no longer have to subsidise our EU masters.

  20. #10020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    Proof of what, did you leave yet?
    easy counterproof:

    "Today’s we’re getting the first proper economic analysis of the Brexit deal agreed between the UK and the EU and signed off at yesterday’s Brussels summit. And it says that, under this plan, after 10 years the UK economy would be almost 4% smaller than if it would if the country remained in the EU."
    source: Guardian online article

    flip a coin and decide who to believe ...

    btw: meaningful vote is within 2 weeks.

    "Labour sources are saying there could be as much as five days of Brexit debate in the run up to the meaningful final vote on or around December 12"

    dec12 is a wednesday, so debate would arise wednesday next week or so unless HoC plans to sit on weekend too.

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