View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #10241
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yup. It's very poor this week.
    Standard of debate is shocking. They are all thick as pig shit.
    You can't really dust for vomit.

  2. #10242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Is anyone watching Question Time? My television is precariously close to having a glass of gin thrown at it.

    Panellists are genuinely all muppets. They’re all absolutely awful.
    Do you mean PMQ? Or is there another interesting show?

    I say interesting... of course PMQ is more amusing than interesting... I stopped watching after May tried to give evidence for the wide range support for her solution and didn't get any further than "fisheries, farmers and employers in Northern Ireland". Wow, yeah.. that's what, 5% of the GDP? Not bad, that is huge support...
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  3. #10243
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Do you mean PMQ? Or is there another interesting show?

    I say interesting... of course PMQ is more amusing than interesting... I stopped watching after May tried to give evidence for the wide range support for her solution and didn't get any further than "fisheries, farmers and employers in Northern Ireland". Wow, yeah.. that's what, 5% of the GDP? Not bad, that is huge support...
    Black lives matter! Ehrm, I mean Scottish fishermen matter.
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  4. #10244
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Poet: nice vegan, in touch with the kids, brain addled by decades of ganja.

    Labour: psycho. Absolute nutter. Would not want to meet her in a dark alley in Barnsley.

    Tim Martin: looks and talks like one of my roadies.

    Tory: just can’t take seriously. Get behind May. Lol.

    Lib Dem: every time she’s in shot I feel her jacket’s about to induce a migraine.

    Dimbelby should get some of the audience up on stage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Do you mean PMQ? Or is there another interesting show?
    It’s a BBC topical debate program. Normally worth watching. Tonight’s line-up of talking heads is excruciatingly bad.
    You can't really dust for vomit.

  5. #10245
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Standard of debate is shocking. They are all thick as pig shit.
    I have had the (mis)fortune of meeting Tim Martin on a number of occasions and he most certainly is not thick but his comments tonight were, at times, shockingly dishonest.

  6. #10246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You very clearly stated "I don't know which is more amazing [...] the fact that Farage actually thinks it favours them (or at least pretends too, we all know he cannot actually be as dumb as he pretends while also being shrewd enough to make millions form it)." the implication of which is that you do not believe that the current proposal favours the EU, which is what I questioned.

    I am sorry who exactly is this anyone who expected less favourable terms? Quite frankly this is a blanket statement that you have no way of proving.

    What slack have the EU cut us? Assuming this proposal goes through the EU has eliminated our ability to out compete EU industries by keeping us aligned with the EU tariff regime and standards, they have essentially put the brakes on the UK implementing any FTA, they have ensured that we have to follow EU rules and regulations without having any say and to top that all off we cannot put a stop to all of the above without the EU's consent.

    As much as it pains me to say it; Farrage is quite right that the EU have outmanoeuvred us at every turn, although I would prefer that he accepted that this is, and was always going to be, the reality of Brexit and that he take ownership of his role in selling this mess to nation instead of throwing out soundbites on one of his rare appearances at the European Parliament.

    To be honest Barnier and team have done an absolutely brilliant job so far and it is no criticism of him or the EU to state that as a result of their hard work they have looked after the EU's interests (as was their job) and negotiated a proposal that favours them and not us.
    Okay, assuming that you genuinely do not understand this and aren't just trying to wind me up, I will use an analogy:

    If serial killer in the USA murders 50 people, gets caught and then gets prosecuted, and everyone expects them to get the death penalty, but the judge for whatever reason takes pity on them and gives them a life sentence instead. Then that person has been shown favourable treatment, it wasn't unfavourable just because he didn't get released with a suspended sentence and given the judges house.

    The EU have not "eliminated our ability to out compete EU industries" because we never had that to begin with, we are a pissy little island in the north sea which had an empire before WW2 but only have any relevance on the world stage in the 21st century due to being a high ranking member of the EU. If you honestly thought that we were magically going to be more important than the USA or Canada once we left the EU then it's not the negotiation teams fault for letting you down lol.
    Last edited by caervek; 2018-11-30 at 12:07 AM.

  7. #10247
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Okay, assuming that you genuinely do not understand this and aren't just trying to wind me up, I will use an analogy:

    If serial killer in the USA murders 50 people, gets caught and then gets prosecuted, and everyone expects them to get the death penalty, but the judge for whatever reason takes pity on them and gives them a life sentence instead. Then that person has been shown favourable treatment, it wasn't unfavourable just because he didn't get released with a suspended sentence and given the judges house.
    That's a very bad analogy and still does not explain your original comment. But thanks for trying.

    Just to expand a bit on what I have written. You claimed, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Farrage was dumb for believing that the current proposal favours the EU. To which I asked you if you believed that it favoured the UK. Do think that May's proposal favours the EU or the UK?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    The EU have not "eliminated our ability to out compete EU industries" because we never had that to begin with, we are a pissy little island in the north sea which had an empire before WW2 but only have any relevance on the world stage in the 21st century due to being a high ranking member of the EU. If you honestly thought that we were magically going to be more important than the USA or Canada once we left the EU then it's not the negotiation teams fault for letting you down lol.

    Yeah, alright. Seriously what is it with this thread and the total inability to respond to what someone writes? Where did I mention anything about being more important than the US or Canada? In fact where did I mention anything about any of that?
    Last edited by Pann; 2018-11-30 at 12:10 AM.

  8. #10248
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, alright. Seriously what is it with this thread and the total inability to respond to what someone writes? Where did I mention anything about being more important than the US or Canada? In fact where did I mention anything about any of that?
    Look up what George Orwell wrote about English intellectuals and patriotism. Might explain a bit.
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #10249
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Just to expand a bit on what I have written. You claimed, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Farrage was dumb for believing that the current proposal favours the EU. To which I asked you if you believed that it favoured the UK. Do think that May's proposal favours the EU or the UK?
    Hmm... I'm not sure you understood the point @caervek was making. He attacked Farage for believing the deal was favourable for the EU, because the way this agreement formed up is actually the expected result, considering the obstacles this whole lunacy has to face. The EU is losing one of the top three members. Nothing about this is favourable to the EU. Nothing at all. And unlike the UK, the EU doesn't have any way to actually change what they don't want to happen. This agreement? It's not a consolation price. It is the negotiated amputation of a core piece of the EU, let's be real here.

    Oh sure, if your mindset is that it's "us" vs. "them", as Brexiteers usually do, you can start talking about winners and losers, but really, everyone's a loser here.
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  10. #10250
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Is anyone watching Question Time? My television is precariously close to having a glass of gin thrown at it.

    Panellists are genuinely all muppets. They’re all absolutely awful.
    I've not been able to watch it since my work I started last year has me running into the evenings. But generally it's been head ache inducing since a lot of the public are worse than those answering the questions.

  11. #10251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That's a very bad analogy and still does not explain your original comment. But thanks for trying.
    It not and it does, you just apparently are unable or unwilling to understand it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Just to expand a bit on what I have written. You claimed, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Farrage was dumb for believing that the current proposal favours the EU.
    Actually I said that he was pretending to believe that it favoured them, there's no way anyone could be as dumb as he acts and still become a millionaire doing it, he knows what he's doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    To which I asked you if you believed that it favoured the UK. Do think that May's proposal favours the EU or the UK?
    Neither.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Where did I mention anything about being more important than the US or Canada? In fact where did I mention anything about any of that?
    You keep claiming that the EU is not showing the UK favourable treatment in negotiations, yet it consistently shows the UK more favourable treatment than the USA or Canada get, this despite the UK (once it has left the EU) being considerably less important than the USA or Canada. This in itself is proof that the UK is undeniably being shown favourable treatment, just not as favourable as the special treatment it normally gets in international negotiations due to being an EU member.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Hmm... I'm not sure you understood the point @caervek was making.
    I think the big issue he's having understanding what people are saying is that he doesn't actually understand what favourable means and so he doesn't grasp what people mean in the context they're using it. He doesn't seem to get that somebody can be shown favourable treatment in a negotiation and not be given 100% of what they want, he just sees it as black and white.

  12. #10252
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    I think the big issue he's having understanding what people are saying is that he doesn't actually understand what favourable means and so he doesn't grasp what people mean in the context they're using it. He doesn't seem to get that somebody can be shown favourable treatment in a negotiation and not be given 100% of what they want, he just sees it as black and white.
    I'm still trying to figure out what his angle is in all of this thread. He's not the typical Brexiteer, but clearly, he's not a remainer, either. Otherwise he wouldn't go on about scaremongering and project fear, which most reasonable people have now dubbed project reality instead. I've just today heard a discussion on our floor... and it basically went "well, to do X, we'd have to do this and this" and our CFO going "yes, well.. it's only 4 months, do you want to do it now and then undo it if Brexit doesn't happen? It's a coin flip, we have no idea how it turns out..."

    How's this for project fear? Companies are making decisions now, @Pann. This is not even a project, it's actual real life right now.
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  13. #10253
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    It not and it does, you just apparently are unable or unwilling to understand it.
    No, really it was terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Actually I said that he was pretending to believe that it favoured them, there's no way anyone could be as dumb as he acts and still become a millionaire doing it, he knows what he's doing.
    The implication of saying that some is pretending to believe something is that that something is not correct. Which is why I asked you if you thought the deal favoured the EU. This is a rather simple question which for some reason you decided to avoid instead writing about people being shot in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Neither.
    They we go! You could have said this hours ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    You keep claiming that the EU is not showing the UK favourable treatment in negotiations, yet it consistently shows the UK more favourable treatment than the USA or Canada get, this despite the UK (once it has left the EU) being considerably less important than the USA or Canada. This in itself is proof that the UK is undeniably being shown favourable treatment, just not as favourable as the special treatment it normally gets in international negotiations due to being an EU member.
    I don't believe it is. The EU is negotiating with the UK as it would with any other nation, this doesn't make it bad or evil, it is simply trying to achieve the best outcome for the EU. Obviously due to our close proximity and the relationship developed over the last 40 years what benefits the EU may also benefit the UK so I can understand why you may think that the EU has treated the UK favourably compared to the US or Canada. And I suppose since they've not made any of our negotiators cry yet we are being treated better than Canada.

    I can understand why you would say that the UK is less important than the US although in terms of trade with the EU we are roughly equal, last time I looked the UK was 16% of the EU export market compared to 15% for the US (although this may have changed since). But Canada? Really? Canada? Our GDP is nearly $1trillion higher than Canada's, our population is nearly twice that of Canada's and total trade between Canada and EU amounted to 94billion Canadian dollars (over of quarter of this was with the UK) in 2016 compared to over £540billion for EU/UK trade.

    The UK is richer, has a larger market, does over five times the amount of trade with the EU and most importantly is right on the EU's doorstep and you think that it is considerably less important than Canada?

    Your "proof" is based on complete wrong-headedness.

    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    I think the big issue he's having understanding what people are saying is that he doesn't actually understand what favourable means and so he doesn't grasp what people mean in the context they're using it. He doesn't seem to get that somebody can be shown favourable treatment in a negotiation and not be given 100% of what they want, he just sees it as black and white.
    Yeah, you see I never actually questioned whether or not UK was receiving favourable treatment or even mentioned this. I asked if you thought the deal favoured the UK in relation to your comment regarding Farrage, supposedly, pretending that the deal favoured the EU.
    Last edited by Pann; 2018-11-30 at 08:07 AM.

  14. #10254
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No, really it was terrible.



    The implication of saying that some is pretending to believe something is that that something is not correct. Which is why I asked you if you thought the deal favoured the EU. This is a rather simple question which for some reason you decided to avoid instead writing about people being shot in the US.



    They we go! You could have said this hours ago.



    I don't believe it is. The EU is negotiating with the UK as it would with any other nation, this doesn't make it bad or evil, it is simply trying to achieve the best outcome for the EU. Obviously due to our close proximity and the relationship developed over the last 40 years what benefits the EU may also benefit the UK so I can understand why you may think that the EU has treated the UK favourably compared to the US or Canada. And I suppose since they've not made any of our negotiators cry yet we are being treated better than Canada.

    I can understand why you would say that the UK is less important than the US although in terms of trade with the EU we are roughly equal, last time I looked the UK was 16% of the EU export market compared to 15% for the US (although this may have changed since). But Canada? Really? Canada? Our GDP is nearly $1trillion higher than Canada's, our population is nearly twice that of Canada's and total trade between Canada and EU amounted to 94billion Canadian dollars (over of quarter of this was with the UK) in 2016 compared to over £540billion for EU/UK trade.

    The UK is richer, has a larger market, does over five times the amount of trade and most importantly is right on the EU's doorstep and you think that it is considerably less important than Canada?



    Yeah, you see I never actually questioned whether or not UK was receiving favourable treatment or even mentioned this. I asked if you thought the deal favoured the UK in relation to your comment regarding Farrage, supposedly, pretending that the deal favoured the EU.
    I don't know if Canada is more important than the UK, but it seems they are more reliable at the moment. At this point in time we can't even trade when brexit happens...(the UK needs to sort it stuff, and do it fast)

  15. #10255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No, really it was terrible.
    Again, it wasn't, the analogy may have been ineffective due to your inability to grasp it, but as most people would understand it it's still a pretty good analogy that perfectly sums up the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The implication of saying that some is pretending to believe something is that that something is not correct. Which is why I asked you if you thought the deal favoured the EU. This is a rather simple question which for some reason you decided to avoid instead writing about people being shot in the US.
    Actually I answered it multiple times, the additional analogy about how favour works was simply included because of how much difficulty you were having with the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    They we go! You could have said this hours ago.
    I did, in fact it was alluded too in the post of mine that you initially replied too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I don't believe it is.
    You've made this clear, however as myself and others have pointed out, your disbelief in the fact doesn't stop it being correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The EU is negotiating with the UK as it would with any other nation
    No it is not, it is showing it favourable treatment in negotiations, hence why it gets more favourable treatment than more important countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I can understand why you may think that the EU has treated the UK favourably compared to the US or Canada.
    Well finally, it only took like half a dozen pages xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The UK is richer, has a larger market, does over five times the amount of trade with the EU and most importantly is right on the EU's doorstep and you think that it is considerably less important than Canada?
    Yes, because the UK is in that position DUE TO BEING A MEMBER OF THE EU, once it leaves the EU it will no longer have the increased privelege/importance and negotiating power that being an EU member gives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, you see I never actually questioned whether or not UK was receiving favourable treatment
    Careful with that straw buddy, it's flammable :P

  16. #10256
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Oh, they're right to prepare for the worst, but it's interesting, don't you think, that the government (and I include the BoE in that) never seems to get around to releasing a more positive scenario?
    "Isn't it CONVENIENT that NASA never releases pictures of the world being flat, only being round? Obvious bias!"
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    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #10257
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    "Isn't it CONVENIENT that NASA never releases pictures of the world being flat, only being round? Obvious bias!"
    You jest, but this was the Treasury's prediction for a vote to leave:



    Either they're just that damn incompetent (in which case why believe anything they say?), or they were lying to try and scare people away from voting to leave (in which case why believe anything they say?).
    Still not tired of winning.

  18. #10258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Oh, they're right to prepare for the worst, but it's interesting, don't you think, that the government (and I include the BoE in that) never seems to get around to releasing a more positive scenario?
    Well they're isn't a positive outlook in the short term, even the staunch no dealers admit we're in for a rough few years, where most viewpoints differ is in how long those rough years will last.

    Personally I think if we do end up going with no deal it'll be decades.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    You jest, but this was the Treasury's prediction for a vote to leave:



    Either they're just that damn incompetent (in which case why believe anything they say?), or they were lying to try and scare people away from voting to leave (in which case why believe anything they say?).
    Yeah that statement was made before the Referendum, when everyone thought no deal was going to be a few months of tying things up with the EU and then we're out, not two years+ of twiddling our thumbs. That hasn't happened because we aren't out yet.

    Were they trying to get people not to vote Leave? Yes probably, because they're money people and leaving the EU means less money coming in.

    That doesn't mean the truth is "MUH PROJEKT FEAR".

  19. #10259
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Perhaps, but I tend to be more optimistic on these things.

    Anyway, in other news, the Maybot is apparently ruling out a Norway-style deal:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...bour-plunging/

    Theresa May has put herself on a collision course with senior Cabinet ministers by ruling out a Norway-style Brexit as a “plan B” if she loses the Parliamentary vote on her Brexit deal. The Prime Minister said a Norway-style arrangement, favoured by more than a third of the Cabinet as a fallback option, would not end freedom of movement and therefore would not deliver what people voted for in the EU referendum.

    There have been about a hundred Tory MPs speak out against this deal. May only has a majority of what, 13 in the House of Commons, and this relies on the 10 DUP MPs. Labour have come out against the deal, though there may be Remoaners there who vote for it. This'll be fun. Crossing fingers for a WTO / no deal Brexit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Yeah that statement was made before the Referendum
    Exactly. Merely voting for Brexit would cause all that. They were wrong then, and yet they're going to be right this time because...?
    Still not tired of winning.

  20. #10260
    Dreadlord Nigel Tufnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    /snip
    For a more detailed description of the UK's fortunes immediately following the Leave vote, see:

    https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-...f-99f383b09ff9

    In short, since June 2016:

    - GDP growth lowest of G7
    - Employment up
    - Real wage growth lower
    - Households borrowing more than they save
    - Business investment stagnant
    - FTSE 250 performing poorly

    Teleros' argument (and also Andrew Neil's) revolves round the fact that as the apocalyptic hasn't happened we should all be jolly grateful.
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