View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #12061
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Given that Corbyn has stated that nationalisation would essentially cost nothing when in reality it would cost hundreds of billions (I have read some estimates that the costs would be as high a trillion), which would increase the costs of servicing national debt and therefore place government finances under additional pressure, it is unsurprising that people have given little thought to the subject.

    I seem to recall their plan to force companies to give up 10% of equity and pay workers up to £500 for the privilege wasn't that popular nor was the idea of seizing privately owned property to give to the homeless.

    Labour's manifesto was actually so bland most socialists were quite disappointed.

    Labour's renationalization is limited to Rail and Energy. These are totally non-controversial positions because they are not actually private concerns but public-private concerns where the taxpayer takes all the risk and the shareholders take all the profit. Literally no one supports this ideologically, it is just a kleptocracy. It is farcical to oppose this when it is clearly going to save a ton of money in the short-term.

    Labour's plans to make people stakeholders in companies are, again, so bland that both David Cameron and Tony Blair came up with very similar ideas. It seems Corbyn can't eat an omlette without someone accusing him of launching a revolution against the bourgeois.

    The extent of Corbyn's attack on private property was to suggest that the empty residences of property speculators near the Grenfell disaster should be used as temporary accommodation for the victims until permanent homes could be found. This requires no new legislation: laws already exist from WWII to appropriate private property for national emergencies. That great socialist Winston Churchill used those powers frequently.

  2. #12062
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I seem to recall their plan to force companies to give up 10% of equity and pay workers up to £500 for the privilege wasn't that popular nor was the idea of seizing privately owned property to give to the homeless.
    This is really not at all controversial. Stakeholder theory supports such a measure. It increases agency and involvement. And it is only intended for larger incorporated entities, not SMEs. You'll find several countries in Europe have similar measures.

    Btw
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKCN1P10YP
    Seriously, May wants the EU to promise they can have a trade deal signed by 2021? Does she have any idea what a trade deal involve? Have the negotiations so far given us any reason to think they'd be able to get a trade deal, one that would remove the need for the backstop no less, in less than two years? Would anyone believe the EU even if they did???
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-01-07 at 07:08 PM.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  3. #12063
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Sorry should of said Manifesto rather than policies earlier. Using https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39933116 to give it all a refresh and unless you are ideologically opposed to renationalisation or earn over 80k then it's a good manifesto.

    The Independent has some polling of opinions on said manifesto and they appear to be popular.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7731536.html

    For something anecdotal I'm all for renationalising the railways (from what I understand it's franchised, renationalisation is simply a case of letting existing franchise agreements expire) and then my enthusiasm wanes.
    I don't think it is any surprise that promising to improve voters' lives whilst getting someone else to pay for it is popular amongst those whose lives might get better for nothing.

    Seeing as the top 1% of earners account for 25% of the UK income tax take and 90% of it is paid by around half of all workers, shouldn't we be grateful that they pay for our schools, hospitals, police forces, fire services, etc instead of trying to screw them out of more of their money? Besides there is the possibility that higher tax bands will not lead to a higher tax take as those on higher salaries are more able to employ accountants to lower their tax burden or in the case of the super rich leave the country altogether.

    Labour's plan to renationalise the railways is to let the franchises expire which on the face of it is quite cheap although I would assume that rolling stock, etc would need to purchased, however this cannot be accomplished in one term as some are not due to expire until 2030 and will lead to the situation where operators keep investment to the bare minimum when they know that there is no chance of continuing their franchise.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...e-the-railways

  4. #12064
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I don't think it is any surprise that promising to improve voters' lives whilst getting someone else to pay for it is popular amongst those whose lives might get better for nothing.

    Seeing as the top 1% of earners account for 25% of the UK income tax take and 90% of it is paid by around half of all workers, shouldn't we be grateful that they pay for our schools, hospitals, police forces, fire services, etc instead of trying to screw them out of more of their money? Besides there is the possibility that higher tax bands will not lead to a higher tax take as those on higher salaries are more able to employ accountants to lower their tax burden or in the case of the super rich leave the country altogether.

    Labour's plan to renationalise the railways is to let the franchises expire which on the face of it is quite cheap although I would assume that rolling stock, etc would need to purchased, however this cannot be accomplished in one term as some are not due to expire until 2030 and will lead to the situation where operators keep investment to the bare minimum when they know that there is no chance of continuing their franchise.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...e-the-railways
    Should you be grateful for them paying those few taxes they cannot avoid? No, you should not. In all honesty if that is your starting position I think many of us will not really find common ground with you.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #12065
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    How about this article in the Financial Times? https://www.ft.com/content/f2632c6e-...9-37318e776bab

    Or this article from Jeffrey Archer, explaining how he would vote for Corbyn if he lived in the North of England. https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...archer-id-vote

    Or this video from Gyles Brandreth (a staunch Tory himself) asking for opinions on Labour policies without telling people that they are linked to Corbyn? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7lsRbDKOXg

    It's amazing what evidence you can find if you just look for it for a short time.
    Yeah, you're right the massive support for Labour policies is why they are currently way out in front in all the voting intention polls.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Should you be grateful for them paying those few taxes they cannot avoid? No, you should not. In all honesty if that is your starting position I think many of us will not really find common ground with you.
    Did I say that? No, I did not.

  6. #12066
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Did I say that? No, I did not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    shouldn't we be grateful that they pay for our schools, hospitals, police forces, fire services, etc instead of trying to screw them out of more of their money?
    I think you did. I guess we are back to What Pann Meant Was.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #12067
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think you did. I guess we are back to What Pann Meant Was.
    No, I didn't. It doesn't even say what you've claimed in the post you quoted. Read the sentence again!

  8. #12068
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No, I didn't. It doesn't even say what you've claimed in the post you quoted. Read the sentence again!
    You're joking, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  9. #12069
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, you're right the massive support for Labour policies is why they are currently way out in front in all the voting intention polls.
    You make a statement. I prove that your statement is incorrect, and provide multiple sets of evidence to support me. You repond by ignoring my reponse and pointing at something else instead. Was it a squirrel?

    At least try and be subtle in your attempts to deflect from your ignorance. It isn't fun if I don't have to work at least a little bit.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  10. #12070
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You make a statement. I prove that your statement is incorrect, and provide multiple sets of evidence to support me. You repond by ignoring my reponse and pointing at something else instead. Was it a squirrel?

    At least try and be subtle in your attempts to deflect from your ignorance. It isn't fun if I don't have to work at least a little bit.
    Yeah, two articles (one of which hardly supports your argument; I mean 'One woman summed up the group’s sentiments, saying Labour just “says what you want to hear” without thinking “where’s the money coming from”.' is a ringing endorsement) and a youtube video conclusively proves me wrong. But you forgot to mention Dave down the Coach and Horses and Susan on Facebook they love Corbyn's policies! I have not ignored your response, if Labour's policies were popular with voters they would consistently poll ahead of the Tories yet back in the real world they do not.

    If that helps you. Great!

  11. #12071
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, two articles (one of which hardly supports your argument; I mean 'One woman summed up the group’s sentiments, saying Labour just “says what you want to hear” without thinking “where’s the money coming from”.' is a ringing endorsement) and a youtube video conclusively proves me wrong. But you forgot to mention Dave down the Coach and Horses and Susan on Facebook they love Corbyn's policies! I have not ignored your response, if Labour's policies were popular with voters they would consistently poll ahead of the Tories yet back in the real world they do not.

    If that helps you. Great!
    If you watched the Brandreth video, you would know that the POLICIES are popular with people that aren't Labour supporters. But that doesn't mean that they want to support LABOUR or indeed CORBYN. And yes, I've capitalised the key points, because you seem to be struggling with picking up the subtleties. You stated that you hadn't seen any evidence that the policies are popular with anyone outside of Labour. Which is patently false, and I can provide more evidence for you if you insist on defending this specific piece of nonsense that you decided to spout.

    Whether Labour is popular, or whether voters feel they can vote for Corbyn are other issues. That are nothing to do with the statement you made or my response. Or are you trying to state that policies are somehow inextricably linked to the party that has them? Because that makes no sense at all, and also isn't backed up by evidence.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  12. #12072
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    If you watched the Brandreth video, you would know that the POLICIES are popular with people that aren't Labour supporters. But that doesn't mean that they want to support LABOUR or indeed CORBYN. And yes, I've capitalised the key points, because you seem to be struggling with picking up the subtleties. You stated that you hadn't seen any evidence that the policies are popular with anyone outside of Labour. Which is patently false, and I can provide more evidence for you if you insist on defending this specific piece of nonsense that you decided to spout.

    Whether Labour is popular, or whether voters feel they can vote for Corbyn are other issues. That are nothing to do with the statement you made or my response. Or are you trying to state that policies are somehow inextricably linked to the party that has them? Because that makes no sense at all, and also isn't backed up by evidence.
    I didn't and I can't be bothered. I am PLEASED (for you in particular) that some people who are not LABOUR supporters like their POLICIES. I've also capitalised some words because.. well.. why not? I did not state that I hadn't seen ANY evidence that Labour policies are popular with anyone outside of Labour, I stated that I had seen LITTLE evidence that they were popular with voters outside of Labour supporters this is A SUBTLE BUT IMPORTANT difference. (Perhaps if you weren't so keen to prove me wrong you'd have noticed this and not wasted yours and my time constructing your little man of straw). What you have provided is a LITTLE (I like this caps malarkey) evidence which supports what I said. Thank you.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-01-07 at 08:41 PM.

  13. #12073
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I didn't and I can't be bothered. I am PLEASED (for you in particular) that some people who are not LABOUR supporters like their POLICIES. I've also capitalised some words because.. well.. why not? I did not state that I hadn't seen ANY evidence that Labour policies are popular with anyone outside of Labour, I stated that I had seen LITTLE evidence that they were popular with voters outside of Labour supporters this is A SUBTLE BUT IMPORTANT difference. (Perhaps if you weren't so keen to prove me wrong you'd have noticed this and not wasted yours and my time constructing your little man of straw). What you have provided is a LITTLE (I like this caps malarkey) evidence which supports what I said. Thank you.
    So if I give you 20 links providing evidence then what will you do? Try and claim that your statement was still technically correct because you didn't know about them? You really are one of the most dishonest posters on here, and the semantic wriggling you do when proven wrong just shows you for what you are.

    You made a statement that you either knew wasn't true, or you believed it was true because you hadn't bothered to make even a cursory glance at available evidence. So you are either a liar or are simply unwilling to learn anything that may contradict your inherent bias. Just don't expect to be allowed to do this without people calling you out. And stop pouting and moaning so much when someone does.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  14. #12074
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    So if I give you 20 links providing evidence then what will you do? Try and claim that your statement was still technically correct because you didn't know about them? You really are one of the most dishonest posters on here, and the semantic wriggling you do when proven wrong just shows you for what you are.

    You made a statement that you either knew wasn't true, or you believed it was true because you hadn't bothered to make even a cursory glance at available evidence. So you are either a liar or are simply unwilling to learn anything that may contradict your inherent bias. Just don't expect to be allowed to do this without people calling you out. And stop pouting and moaning so much when someone does.
    If that makes you happy and you feel it is a productive use of time - crack on. However 20 links when the UK has a voting population of almost 47million people will still only be a LITTLE evidence. Now if you could provide me with, say, a million links I would consider that lots (but make sure they are better than the FT article and don't use Dave from the Coach and Horses - he'll say anything once he has a beer in him ) and I would happily concede that you have changed my opinion.

    My statement is correct because it was a) my point of view and b) I did not say what you claimed I said. You are the one trying to twist my words to fit your argument. I am not trying to wriggle, semantically or otherwise, you attacked an argument I did not make and instead built yourself a teeny-tiny little straw man.

    I made a statement that I had seen LITTLE evidence that Labour policies are popular outside of Labour voters because I have seen LITTLE evidence of this, for the record little does not mean none as you are dishonestly trying to claim.

    You honestly think I am pouting or moaning at this? But instead of continuing to embarrass yourself why not admit your error and we can move on?

  15. #12075
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I made a statement that I had seen LITTLE evidence that Labour policies are popular outside of Labour voters because I have seen LITTLE evidence of this, for the record little does not mean none as you are dishonestly trying to claim.
    I am going to stop responding to you now. Because once again any form of interraction with you is shown to be painful and pointless. But this did make me chuckle, since this is exactly what I said you would do in the post you quoted. You are certainly predictable in your efforts to avoid saying "I'm sorry, I made a mistake".
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  16. #12076
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I am going to stop responding to you now. Because once again any form of interraction with you is shown to be painful and pointless. But this did make me chuckle, since this is exactly what I said you would do in the post you quoted. You are certainly predictable in your efforts to avoid saying "I'm sorry, I made a mistake".
    Oh, but we were having such fun! You predicted that I would point out your lie? Why would I say I made a mistake when I never said what you claimed? If I had said as you dishonestly claimed that I had not seen any evidence of the popularity of Labour's policies you might have a point but why do you think I would apologise for something you said? Weird!

    Oh and just so we're clear does this mean you're not going to provide the million links?
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-01-07 at 09:42 PM.

  17. #12077
    @Pann Can you try and stop derailing the thread? As amusing as the confusion among the British about domestic politics in the UK is, your constant "proving wrong" or "being proven wrong" with wild arguments is a pattern that's been constant for the past 20 or so pages.

    I'm being nice now. I can be arrogant, if you prefer. Apparently, I have a knack for that.

    Edit:

    To get back on topic, let's talk about consequences...

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/07/i...ets/index.html

    London (CNN Business)Brexit hasn't happened yet but it's already shrinking the United Kingdom's financial services industry.

    Banks and other financial companies have shifted at least £800 billion ($1 trillion) worth of assets out of the country and into the European Union because of Brexit, EY said in a report published Monday.
    Many banks have set up new offices elsewhere in the European Union to safeguard their regional operations after Brexit, which means they also have to move substantial assets there to satisfy EU regulators. Other firms are moving assets to protect clients against market volatility and sudden changes in regulation.
    The consultancy said the figure represented roughly 10% of the total assets of the UK banking sector, and was a "conservative estimate" because some banks have not yet revealed their contingency plans.
    @dribbles: Tick, tock, mate. When exactly did you want to start making a profit from this? You know we'll count this when you later say "Muh, but we made 100 million in buying our own food!"

    Wait, let me guess... you wanted them bankers out anyway, right? Because they're... I don't know, some scummy filth that you don't like. You'll come up with a spin to justify this being a good thing, right? Come on Dribbelino... I have faith in you.
    Last edited by Slant; 2019-01-07 at 10:38 PM.
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  18. #12078
    Scarab Lord
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    https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-brexit-looms

    oooh please, do it !! 800bn moved to EU and you can have our firstborn....and watch UK burn on top for stupidity.

  19. #12079
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I don't think it is any surprise that promising to improve voters' lives whilst getting someone else to pay for it is popular amongst those whose lives might get better for nothing.

    Seeing as the top 1% of earners account for 25% of the UK income tax take and 90% of it is paid by around half of all workers, shouldn't we be grateful that they pay for our schools, hospitals, police forces, fire services, etc instead of trying to screw them out of more of their money? Besides there is the possibility that higher tax bands will not lead to a higher tax take as those on higher salaries are more able to employ accountants to lower their tax burden or in the case of the super rich leave the country altogether.

    Labour's plan to renationalise the railways is to let the franchises expire which on the face of it is quite cheap although I would assume that rolling stock, etc would need to purchased, however this cannot be accomplished in one term as some are not due to expire until 2030 and will lead to the situation where operators keep investment to the bare minimum when they know that there is no chance of continuing their franchise.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...e-the-railways
    And what if I said that those 1% are all worth at least 3 million and the top 10% of households hold nearly 50% of the wealth? I guess we should be grateful we get to earn any money at all . No but seriously the people targeted can afford it, if they don't want to pay tax they can already offshore everything, so yeah, it might not generate any extra revenue at all but ideologically I don't feel bad that the "1%" might not be able to buy their 10th home or that speed boat they really wanted in an attempt to lift people out of poverty or improve the infrastructure of this country.

    Equally citing potential "minimum investment" from rail operators is a bit of a laugh, the investment already seems minimal.

  20. #12080
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Better watch out for the radical left says the guy whose country has Lenin's corpse in a glass box lol.
    Got to understand that revolutions require revolutionary situations; revolutionaries both exploited existing ones and made them happen/exacerbated them themselves.

    And Lenin was quite good at exploiting part (while his compatriots were all "Oh, it can't happen in Russia"/"It isn't ready yet").

    Think of Corbyn as Lenin and Tories as "Russian Provisional Government".

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