[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Nissan did not negotiate tax breaks not did the government pledge any aid.

Also, there are not two models being moved out of the UK.

Oh really? What about this? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...ease-5j5bdmcd7 There WAS a deal between the UK government and Nissan. There was so much of a deal that they imposed a gag order on it. That deal is apparently off.

When a car manufacturer says "we are moving production of the new [model] to another factory", then that car is not going to be manufactured at the previous factory. And they will, at some point, halt production of the current X-Trail and Qasquai (when they are no longer the current model). Just like BMW will, at some point, stop manufacturing the petrol Minis (the only car manufactured at the BMW plant in Oxfordshire). They are going to be manufacturing the electric Minis at the recently expanded BMW factory in the Netherlands.

When car manufacturers want to close a factory, they do it gradually by moving production to other facilities. That is exactly what Nissan is doing (and why the union bosses are going ape-shit about it because they know what is coming).

[Acidbaron]

When a car manufacturer says "we are moving production of the new [model] to another factory", then that car is not being manufactured at the previous factory. And they will, at some point, halt production of the current X-Trail and Qasquai (when they are no longer the current model). Just like BMW will, at some point, stop manufacturing the petrol Minis (the only car manufactured at the BMW plant in Oxfordshire). They are going to be manufacturing the electric Minis at the recently expanded BMW factory in the Netherlands.

When car manufacturers want to close a factory, they do it gradually by moving production to other facilities. That is exactly what Nissan is doing (and why the union bosses are going ape-shit about it).

Why bother really, we all know how pedantic he gets and tries to argue semantics to make it appear so the brexit isn't anything short of a disaster for most in the UK.

At this point i think he's just trying to paint a better picture for himself, like a lot of leave voters that suddenly start to regret what they voted into power.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Why bother really, we all know how pedantic he gets and tries to argue semantics to make it appear so the brexit isn't anything short of a disaster for most in the UK.

At this point i think he's just trying to paint a better picture for himself, like a lot of leave voters that suddenly start to regret what they voted into power.

Maybe Pann works at the Nissan factory, has already got their P45, and is trying to avoid thinking about it?

[Pann]

When a car manufacturer says "we are moving production of the new [model] to another factory", then that car is not being manufactured at the previous factory. And they will, at some point, halt production of the current X-Trail and Qasquai (when they are no longer the current model). Just like BMW will, at some point, stop manufacturing the petrol Minis (the only car manufactured at the BMW plant in Oxfordshire). They are going to be manufacturing the electric Minis at the recently expanded BMW factory in the Netherlands.

When car manufacturers want to close a factory, they do it gradually by moving production to other facilities. That is exactly what Nissan is doing (and why the union bosses are going ape-shit about it).

For starters the X-Trail has never been manufactured in the UK. There is no mention of moving Qasquai production and Nissan have also said in their press release "We appreciate this will be disappointing for our UK team and partners. Our workforce in Sunderland has our full confidence, and will continue to benefit from the investment planned for Juke and Qashqai."

I would also point out BMW have not said that they will halt production of the UK only that it is a possibility however it is planned that production will continue in the UK at this time.

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Maybe Pann works at the Nissan factory, has already got their P45, and is trying to avoid thinking about it?

Or maybe I am capable of reading a news story and not inventing a completely different story? You lot should try it some time.

[dribbles]

Same old, same old, Mr D.

The cancelled investment is indicative multiple factors, not a single factor. One factor is decline in sales of diesel cars, another factor is Brexit uncertainty. The company exports 80% of its cars (BBC article). Don't try and take the moral high ground unless you're prepared to analyse properly.

The interesting thing here is - will the govt live to regret going after diesel in they way they have done. I can't find data on what % manufactured are diesel / petrol / electric.

No correlation with Brexit at all, just more project fear last gasp grasping at straws. Thankfully the auto industry is not such a massive part of the UK economy in comparison to the EU paymasters Germany. So to clear up the misinformation of project fear trying to tie diesel with Brexit, I give you a perspective on Germany.

Germany is a diminished giant, and that spells trouble for Europe.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ge...ope-2019-01-28

Car producers and their multilayered network of suppliers sustain about 14% of the German economy. Of particular importance are diesel-fuel based car engines, a German invention on which the industry is heavily reliant. In Germany and elsewhere in Europe, sales of diesel cars have fallen sharply following snowballing revelations that car producers and their suppliers wantonly cheated on emission standards.

In February 2018, a German court ruled that municipal and city authorities could restrict diesel car usage without federal legislation. In May, Hamburg banned diesel cars on certain city roads. Perhaps most importantly, electric cars will gradually replace today’s internal-combustion-engine-based car. And in electric car technology, German producers lag behind world leaders.

I suppose you remainers would blame that on Brexit too in your unicorn world. But in the real world just be glad that the UK car industry doesn't represent such a huge part of the economy as it does in Germany.

Happy days for the UK, shitting your pants time in Germany and therefore the EU, with brexit as the cherry icing on top.

[Acidbaron]

And as predicted the english are going now full out claiming that if the EU doesn't budge they are being irresponsible.

So there we have it the end strategy much like the beginning strategy is nothing more than a PR stunt, an attempt to get off the hook once the shit hits the fan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1PS063

Whatever happened to we don't need the EU and we are better off?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

And as predicted the english are going now full out claiming that if the EU doesn't budge they are being irresponsible.

So there we have it the end strategy much like the beginning strategy is nothing more than a PR stunt, an attempt to get off the hook once the shit hits the fan.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1PS063

Whatever happened to we don't need the EU and we are better off?

They probably have a poster with an arrow pointing at Brussels, and the caption "The buck stops here"

[Nigel Tufnel]

No correlation with Brexit at all, just more project fear last gasp grasping at straws. Thankfully the auto industry is not such a massive part of the UK economy in comparison to the EU paymasters Germany. So to clear up the misinformation of project fear trying to tie diesel with Brexit

In the words of Nissan themselves today:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/rele...ation-x-trail#

While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future,” Nissan’s statement read.

I'm not sure, really, why you're even attempting to deny the correlation.

It's so simple: if Nissan can produce a car in Japan and sell it in the EU with a 0% tariff (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47086737), why on earth would they choose to invest in the UK when, as a result of a hard Brexit, we will be hit by a 10% tariff.

Either: a) you're in denial or b) you simply don't care and are pursuing an ideological, at-all-costs Brexit with no regard to the consequences.

[Shalcker]

It's so simple: if Nissan can produce a car in Japan and sell it in the EU with a 0% tariff (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47086737), why on earth would they choose to invest in the UK when, as a result of a hard Brexit, we will be hit by a 10% tariff.

Are you going to be? Is that already decided?

Where can i look at future hard-brexit tariffs?

[Pann]

In the words of Nissan themselves today:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/rele...ation-x-trail#

While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future,” Nissan’s statement read.

I'm not sure, really, why you're even attempting to deny the correlation.

It's so simple: if Nissan can produce a car in Japan and sell it in the EU with a 0% tariff (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47086737), why on earth would they choose to invest in the UK when, as a result of a hard Brexit, we will be hit by a 10% tariff.

Either: a) you're in denial or b) you simply don't care and are pursuing an ideological, at-all-costs Brexit with no regard to the consequences.

No doubt Brexit is playing its part in Nissan's future investment plans, after all they have said as much, however the X-Trail has seen sales across Europe fall by circa 30% year on year, coupled with the fact diesel is falling out of favour and that in order to make petrol powered X-Trails Nissan would need to ship the engines from Japan it is difficult to make the business case that production should be shifted to the UK over consolidating Japanese manufacturing especially as sales remain strong in Asia and Australia.

With relation to the EU/Japan FTA the tariffs on cars have fallen from 10% to 9.2% and will not reach 0% until the thirteenth year.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Are you going to be? Is that already decided?

Where can i look at future hard-brexit tariffs?

You can look at all WTO schedules here:

http://tariffdata.wto.org/ReportersAndProducts.aspx

[Slant]

Well yes we cut diesel models very rapidly at the end of last year cycle. The thing with electrical is for production also it requires plants to be overhauled in large parts and the work force to be retained especially those on assembly lines. As fossil fuel models are harmless compared to DC current battery loaded engines. A DC shock can zap the life out of you in a blink of an eye, far more dangerous than what comes out of a socket.

They're actually doing that right now. Entire plants are repurposed to battery manufacture and electric vehicle assembly. As I said, the companies that I work with mean serious business, they're pushing it full steam ahead. I doubt US companies are doing that aside from Tesla and the US will be surprised what a technology gap awaits them.

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With relation to the EU/Japan FTA the tariffs on cars have fallen from 10% to 9.2% and will not reach 0% until the thirteenth year.

Okay, just to illustrate the dishonest way with which you gloss over these numbers to downplay the FTA...

EU Japanese car trade is worth one hundred billion Euros. Those 0.8% represent 800 million Euros. That's a billion almost. Every 1% is a billion less tariffs. That is a major thing for a field of industry where profit margins are calculated behind the decimal point.

[Acidbaron]

In the words of Nissan themselves today:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/rele...ation-x-trail#

While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future,” Nissan’s statement read.

I'm not sure, really, why you're even attempting to deny the correlation.

It's so simple: if Nissan can produce a car in Japan and sell it in the EU with a 0% tariff (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47086737), why on earth would they choose to invest in the UK when, as a result of a hard Brexit, we will be hit by a 10% tariff.

Either: a) you're in denial or b) you simply don't care and are pursuing an ideological, at-all-costs Brexit with no regard to the consequences.

You are making the mistake in assuming he's english.

[dribbles]

In the words of Nissan themselves today:

https://uk.nissannews.com/en-GB/rele...ation-x-trail#

While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future,” Nissan’s statement read.

I'm not sure, really, why you're even attempting to deny the correlation.

It's so simple: if Nissan can produce a car in Japan and sell it in the EU with a 0% tariff (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47086737), why on earth would they choose to invest in the UK when, as a result of a hard Brexit, we will be hit by a 10% tariff.

Either: a) you're in denial or b) you simply don't care and are pursuing an ideological, at-all-costs Brexit with no regard to the consequences.

Ah yeah that Nissan quote, Gianluca de Ficchy, he's the guy that said it. Nice British name that, totally without any EU connection at all, oh wait a sec...

Wouldn't be covering up a total failure by his company to plan ahead for the demise of diesel by passing the buck onto brexit for political reasons by any chance would he? The EU could never have leaned on them at all, they never would've could've done that surely?

Nissan were doomed to fail once they tied themselves in with Renault. No one ever in a lifetime, through choice, owns more than one French car...

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1PS001?il=0

But now, it's disobeying the "will of the people" that will cause unrest. It's not like they are planning to evacuate the Queen in the event of "No Deal"...

To put this into context, the Royals stayed in London during the Blitz.

[Nigel Tufnel]

You are making the mistake in assuming he's english.

Hmms... I don't think Dribbles is a Russian agitator. My opinion is that his/her (edit... his, sorry, I forgot the Austrian brothel interlude) posts often contain cultural references that require insight/experience a Russian troll factory wouldn't have. Maybe that's naive of me... I don't know.

The sad fact is that, yes, there are people in the UK who are pursuing an ideological hard Brexit regardless of the economic cost.

I think a lot of Dribbles' output is fuelled by contrarianism. Without a doubt, the majority of UK posters in this thread are Remain voters who hold varying amounts of belief in the EU project. Often Dribbles will take an opposing view purely for the sake of it.

And, I think this is indicative of the poor quality of debate in the UK as a whole.

This Nissan thing... I'm listening to LBC at the moment. It's just people shouting their black & white views at each other, when the truth is more nuanced. Yes, the marked drop in demand for diesel cars will have influenced Nissan's decision in conjunction with uncertainty / pessimism re. a hard Brexit. It's quite straightforward: why would you invest in a country that is going to have a 10% tariff slapped on its automotive exports when you could export with a 0% tariff by manufacturing at home or in the EU27?

Dribbles won't acknowledge this. Other posters do.

[Kallisto]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1PS001?il=0

But now, it's disobeying the "will of the people" that will cause unrest. It's not like they are planning to evacuate the Queen in the event of "No Deal"...

Reuters are reporting on a story from the Sunday Mail. It's quite easy to ignore it tbh. Especially since she barely spends any time in London anyway.

[ati87]

Ah yeah that Nissan quote, Gianluca de Ficchy, he's the guy that said it. Nice British name that, totally without any EU connection at all, oh wait a sec...

Wouldn't be covering up a total failure by his company to plan ahead for the demise of diesel by passing the buck onto brexit for political reasons by any chance would he? The EU could never have leaned on them at all, they never would've could've done that surely?

Nissan were doomed to fail once they tied themselves in with Renault. No one ever in a lifetime, through choice, owns more than one French car...

You kind of sound like a bitter guy that just found out that his ex has moved on, married and has a children.

[Dhrizzle]

Nothing to do with Brexit. According to the FT...

Nissan has reversed a 2016 decision to build the X-Trail vehicle in its Sunderland plant because of the decline in diesel sales across Europe, in the latest bad news to hit Britain’s embattled car industry.

The X-Trail is a large sport utility vehicle, the biggest passenger vehicle made by the Japanese group, and it had planned to make diesel models in the UK.However, the company struggled to make the new diesel cars compliant with the latest emission rules using diesel engines that it buys from Renault, according to one person, and fears of an accelerating decline of the fuel source among the public coloured its decision.Nissan has already pledged to eliminate diesel from its line

Say no more...

https://www.ft.com/content/92825130-...b-ff8ef2b976c7

"While a sharp fall in demand for diesel cars was a big factor in Nissan’s decision, the company said on Sunday that Brexit has also influenced its decision to make X-Trails destined for the European market in Kyushu instead of Sunderland.

“While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

[dribbles]

https://www.ft.com/content/92825130-...b-ff8ef2b976c7

"While a sharp fall in demand for diesel cars was a big factor in Nissan’s decision, the company said on Sunday that Brexit has also influenced its decision to make X-Trails destined for the European market in Kyushu instead of Sunderland.

“While we have taken this decision for business reasons, the continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

Oh I must have missed that bit, interesting. You know I haven't heard of an EU place called Kyushu, where is that? Which EU member state is it that Nissan has such confidence in that they have moved production of the X-Trail from the UK to then?