View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #15261
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Indeed. I think the EU could be receptive to a sensible alternative but parliament is too busy telling everyone what they don't want instead of trying to come up with an alternative.
    Well we know one alternative that the EU entertained, the plan presented by Corbyn. But ultimately even that is something that serves as a starting point and it would need an extension and vigorous negotiations to work.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  2. #15262
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    I'm not touting human sacrifice as a silver bullet to our situation but if we are being real about this then no one is walking out of this happy. If we do have Brexit then 48% of the country will lose their shit, if we don't then 52% will do the same. No matter which way this cookie crumbles faith in our political class has been completely wiped out and it's getting a drubbing either way.

    If a PM was to essentially offer themselves up to draw a line under this though then that might just be the beginnings of a very project in restoring faith in our Parliament.
    I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.

  3. #15263
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Putting aside feelings about May, what else could she do? It's taken almost two years to agree this deal with the EU and with the clock ticking there is no consensus within parliament as to what they want to take its place.
    Work with Parliament where the majority actually was rather than trying to court the ERG who have done nothing but act in bad faith. You say there was no consensus in parliament but it's been pretty obvious from day 1 that they would accept a Customs Union type thing. I know you're trying to point me away from railing on May but who's idea was the Red Lines?

    The moment she set up her stall with those because she believed that's what Brexit must obviously mean then negotiation was done from the get go.

  4. #15264
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.
    Is that a possibility? I honestly cannot see how this division could be healed as fast as it needs to be healed.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #15265
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.
    But they can be healed by ignoring those who voted Remain? I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you're not saying one thing then there is a good chance you're saying the other.

  6. #15266
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Well we know one alternative that the EU entertained, the plan presented by Corbyn. But ultimately even that is something that serves as a starting point and it would need an extension and vigorous negotiations to work.
    I'm not surprised as once you strip away the nonsense, like having a say in how the EU conducts trade deals, full access the SM without FoM, etc, it is essentially staying in the EU whilst having no say in how it is run.

    But just to clear up Labour's policy, according to John Healey they have no issues with the Withdrawal Agreement and would not seek to renegotiate it. Bonkers!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Is that a possibility? I honestly cannot see how this division could be healed as fast as it needs to be healed.
    No, not in my opinion.

  7. #15267
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No, not in my opinion.
    So you can break your democracy by 4% more without fucking the economy or you can break it by 4% less AND fuck the economy.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  8. #15268
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    But they can be healed by ignoring those who voted Remain? I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you're not saying one thing then there is a good chance you're saying the other.
    Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

    I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So you can break your democracy by 4% more without fucking the economy or you can break it by 4% less AND fuck the economy.
    If only things were that simple. You can't just ignore voters because the result is unpalatable.

  9. #15269
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think it would make the matter worse. The divisions can't be healed by ignoring those who voted leave - they need to brought around to the idea of remaining.
    We've had two years of the 75% of the country that didn't vote for Brexit being ignored. Yet suddenly we're the ones that have to be the bigger people?

    Fuck them. And fuck their ridiculous Brexit. Cancel the damn thing, and get back to the process of actually fixing the problems this country has. If they want to go on pissing and moaning about how terrible the EU is, let them emigrate to a country that isn't in it. Instead of trying to drag the country they are in, out.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  10. #15270
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

    I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If only things were that simple. You can't just ignore voters because the result is unpalatable.
    When the result is that close you can't pretend the other side don't exist either though, which is what the government has done for the last three years.

  11. #15271
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    We've had two years of the 75% of the country that didn't vote for Brexit being ignored. Yet suddenly we're the ones that have to be the bigger people?

    Fuck them. And fuck their ridiculous Brexit. Cancel the damn thing, and get back to the process of actually fixing the problems this country has. If they want to go on pissing and moaning about how terrible the EU is, let them emigrate to a country that isn't in it. Instead of trying to drag the country they are in, out.
    People who don't vote are by virtue of not voting happy to go along with the majority and you don't help your argument by implying they support remain. Such is democracy the minority has to bend to the majority. Democracy also allows to change the minds of the people that disagree with them unfortunately the most vocal remainers have spent the last three years looking down on leave voters whilst making snide comments about them and, well, we are where we are.

  12. #15272
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them.

    I have no issue with another ref. but to ignore the result of the first will only make matters worse.
    Is having a second ref not ignoring the first? What we need is honesty from our politicians as to the realism of Brexit rather than pretending to be amazing democrats whilst secretly trying to have their cake and eat it.

    If your pro Brexit you tell your voters there are no unicorns, only hardships and irrelevance. If your for Remain then you tell it straight that the EU isn't perfect but it's the best we've got.

  13. #15273
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Remain lost. Whilst the wishes of remain voters should be taken in account, the answer is not ignoring the narrow majority in favour of them
    Remain lost two and a half years ago, in a competition against something that is clearly undeliverable as described in the referendum. Why is "remain lost" something that anyone reasonable would still say at this point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    unfortunately the most vocal remainers have spent the last three years looking down on leave voters whilst making snide comments about them
    And you wonder why people don't believe that you voted remain

  14. #15274
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    When the result is that close you can't pretend the other side don't exist either though, which is what the government has done for the last three years.
    From what I have read of the WA and from comments from more balanced commentators the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result. It seems to me that the most vocal on both sides are utterly unreasonable and will not accept anything that deviates from their wants (hard brexit/remain) therefore I don't know what else could have been done.

  15. #15275
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result
    The proposal is what you get when you want to end freedom of movement while maintaining no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland by effectively allowing the beginnings of Irish reunification.

    Feel free to offer proof that the overwhelming majority of people that voted to leave explicitly wanted either of those two things above everything else that was on offer from the vote leave campaign.

  16. #15276
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Is having a second ref not ignoring the first? What we need is honesty from our politicians as to the realism of Brexit rather than pretending to be amazing democrats whilst secretly trying to have their cake and eat it.

    If your pro Brexit you tell your voters there are no unicorns, only hardships and irrelevance. If your for Remain then you tell it straight that the EU isn't perfect but it's the best we've got.
    Only if you are an idiot. Democracy is not a static event and people are allowed to change their minds.

    I totally agree and that should form the basis of the campaigns for a 2nd ref. (if there is one) however we all know politics doesn't work that way.

  17. #15277
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Only if you are an idiot. Democracy is not a static event and people are allowed to change their minds.

    I totally agree and that should form the basis of the campaigns for a 2nd ref. (if there is one) however we all know politics doesn't work that way.
    . Well I knew we'd get to consensus eventually lol. I also agree with what you've saying about May's Deal, it is actually the middle of the road compromise, its main issue is that it crystallizes how utterly pointless Brexit is because even a No Deal Brexit where we get to legislate independently will actually result in less sovereignty once the big boys take us behind the bike sheds to "negotiate" those totally amazing trade deals we were told were on the table.
    Last edited by Kronik85; 2019-03-13 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #15278
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    people are allowed to change their minds
    Weird how MPs keep getting the opportunity every week to change their mind regarding May's shitty deal, but a second referendum to see if people have changed their minds after 2.5 years is completely out of the question.

  19. #15279
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    . Well I knew we'd get to consensus eventually lol. I also agree with what you've saying about May's Deal, it is actually the middle of the road compromise, its main issue is that it crystallizes how utterly pointless Brexit is.
    I probably don't explain myself too well at times (and I do tend to dragged into things ).

    I agree with you but I firmly believe we have to try to fix things not just ignore the things we don't like. Unfortunately I have no idea how to go about this and it seems like no-one else does either. I think, maybe, Merkel is right that this needs a generation to heal.

  20. #15280
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    From what I have read of the WA and from comments from more balanced commentators the proposal is as close to remaining as you can get whilst still respecting the ref. result. It seems to me that the most vocal on both sides are utterly unreasonable and will not accept anything that deviates from their wants (hard brexit/remain) therefore I don't know what else could have been done.
    We wouldn't be in the position we are if May had reached across the table and worked out a position on Brexit that the House could actually agree on instead of acting like she had a super-majority in the Commons.

    The Prime Minister of what is effectively a minority government, instead of seeking a national consensus on what Brexit should actually be, ignored everybody except the ERG and set off to Brussels saying she was going to be a pain in the butt to work with and not back down on anything. It really isn't surprising that the deal she returned with is unacceptable to most.

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