View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #15281
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    We wouldn't be in the position we are if May had reached across the table and worked out a position on Brexit that the House could actually agree on instead of acting like she had a super-majority in the Commons.

    The Prime Minister of what is effectively a minority government, instead of seeking a national consensus on what Brexit should actually be, ignored everybody except the ERG and set off to Brussels. It really isn't surprising that the deal she returned with is unacceptable to most.
    I mean she also ignored the ERG. Nothing she ever came back with from Brussels would ever be acceptable to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I agree with you but I firmly believe we have to try to fix things not just ignore the things we don't like. Unfortunately I have no idea how to go about this and it seems like no-one else does either. I think, maybe, Merkel is right that this needs a generation to heal.
    One thing I wonder is how Brexit debate feels at home. There is a clearly generational effect on this so I do wonder how many children and young adults confront their parents and grandparents on this. Ultimately division is healed on a personal level, not on a political level imo.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  2. #15282
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    We wouldn't be in the position we are if May had reached across the table and worked out a position on Brexit that the House could actually agree on instead of acting like she had a super-majority in the Commons.

    The Prime Minister of what is effectively a minority government, instead of seeking a national consensus on what Brexit should actually be, ignored everybody except the ERG and set off to Brussels saying she was going to be a pain in the butt to work with and not back down on anything. It really isn't surprising that the deal she returned with is unacceptable to most.
    I think that is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are three factions at work within the HoC: Leave, remain and party politics. I think party politics would have simply gotten in the way, I mean just look at it now - with little more than two weeks to go they still cannot agree!

    I don't think she has taken that much heed of what the ERG want, certainly she has tried to keep her party together but this is the case for most PMs, as if she had they would not be voting against her deal for being not a hard enough Brexit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    One thing I wonder is how Brexit debate feels at home. There is a clearly generational effect on this so I do wonder how many children and young adults confront their parents and grandparents on this. Ultimately division is healed on a personal level, not on a political level imo.
    In my experience, which is by no means definitive, there isn't really a debate. Most people have had enough and simply don't care and those that do know to avoid it as it is a toxic subject.

  3. #15283
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean she also ignored the ERG. Nothing she ever came back with from Brussels would ever be acceptable to them
    She completely pandered to the ERG up until the point that she had to actually start writing things down on paper - Brexit means Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, etc etc etc, all of those utterly meaningless slogans were all red meat for the ERG, nothing more.

  4. #15284
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    She completely pandered to the ERG up until the point that she had to actually start writing things down on paper - Brexit means Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, etc etc etc, all of those utterly meaningless slogans were all red meat for the ERG, nothing more.
    That's also pandering to a very large segment, possibly a majority, of Tory voters.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  5. #15285
    @Butler Log sorry to pick on you here but you have, perhaps inadvertently, hit on a big problem with the Brexit debate. You support remain and as a result claim that May is ignoring everyone but the ERG yet the evidence shows that this is very clearly not the case. Ironically if you go to leave dominated forums they will be complaining that she listens to no-one but the remain contingent in the Con party. There's no middle ground anymore and we end up with two extremes going at one another's throats as they feel if the other side is being treated better and they are being ignored whilst the majority are caught in between.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-03-13 at 10:54 PM.

  6. #15286
    The Lightbringer downnola's Avatar
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    We should just make England the 51st state and let the other countries remain in the EU.

    I don't know what word in the language—I can’t find one—that applies to people of that kind, who are willing to sacrifice the literal—the existence of organized human life, not in the distant future, so they can put a few more dollars in highly overstuffed pockets. The word “evil” doesn’t begin to approach it.
    - Noam Chomsky

  7. #15287
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think that is nothing more than wishful thinking. There are three factions at work within the HoC: Leave, remain and party politics. I think party politics would have simply gotten in the way, I mean just look at it now - with little more than two weeks to go they still cannot agree!

    I don't think she has taken that much heed of what the ERG want, certainly she has tried to keep her party together but this is the case for most PMs, as if she had they would not be voting against her deal for being not a hard enough Brexit.
    So if the ERG feel ignored and every other Conservative politician feels ignored then where does that leave us on judging May?

    Personally I think Labour (don't worry, there is a caveat here) could of been won over and the Lib Dems and the rest would of gone along with a Brexit deal without the Red Lines.

    Now to elaborate on where I think we differ on Labour. She was never winning over Corbyn and the front bench but the PLP itself could have been very easy to woo, using Corbyn's tacit approval of Hard Brexit as an opportunity to undermine and ultimately oust Corbyn as Cooper and the other moderates upped their profiles and approval by being the sensible MPs willing to put country before party and actually secure a Brexit deal.

  8. #15288
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    yet the evidence shows that this is very clearly not the case
    What evidence would that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That's also pandering to a very large segment, possibly a majority, of Tory party members.
    Fixed, and sure - but those two groups are basically the same thing at this point, with the Conservative party turning into UKIPlite.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-03-13 at 10:59 PM.

  9. #15289
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That's also pandering to a very large segment, possibly a majority, of Tory voters.
    She's pandered to the ERG in terms of stopping the Con party from splitting but in terms of the WA absolutely not as witnessed by the fact they've voted against it twice.

  10. #15290
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    We should just make England the 51st state and let the other countries remain in the EU.
    Do we really want to import the shitshow that is the current composition of Parliament?

    Don't we have enough problems?

    I mean Trump is a fucking disaster and an embarrassment, but he's a day at the beach compared to Brexit.

  11. #15291
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    but in terms of the WA absolutely not as witnessed by the fact they've voted against it twice.
    As has already been explained - once you have to write things down on paper, the ERG will always oppose what you do, because they want a Brexit that does not exist and you obviously can't write something that does not exist down on paper (though the idiotic Malthouse compromise does come relatively close).

    You seem to think that two years consistent pandering and then a few months reality check means "she has not pandered to the ERG", and I'm really not sure why?
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-03-13 at 11:06 PM.

  12. #15292
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    So if the ERG feel ignored and every other Conservative politician feels ignored then where does that leave us on judging May?

    Personally I think Labour (don't worry, there is a caveat here) could of been won over and the Lib Dems and the rest would of gone along with a Brexit deal without the Red Lines.

    Now to elaborate on where I think we differ on Labour. She was never winning over Corbyn and the front bench but the PLP itself could have been very easy to woo, using Corbyn's tacit approval of Hard Brexit as an opportunity to undermine and ultimately oust Corbyn as Cooper and the other moderates upped their profiles and approval by being the sensible MPs willing to put country before party and actually secure a Brexit deal.
    I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

    I'm not so sure. Lab had their own problems, in particular the PLP wanted rid of Corbyn, but once the election result came in and was much better than expected they just decided to keep their heads down and hope that the Tories would tear themselves apart. I don't think there is any way they would have gone against Corbyn and exposed their own divisions.

  13. #15293
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    @Butler Log sorry to pick on you here but you have, perhaps inadvertently, hit on a big problem with the Brexit debate. You support remain and as a result claim that May is ignoring everyone but the ERG yet the evidence shows that this is very clearly not the case. Ironically if you go to leave dominated forums they will be complaining that she listens to no-one but the remain contingent in the Con party. There's no middle ground anymore and we end up with two extremes going at one another's throats as they feel if the other side is being treated better and they are being ignored whilst the majority are caught in between.
    At this point I think she listens to no one but herself with her stompy feet screeching about how they must have her deal that is crap. No one likes and should have been burned on first death. Not risen as a zombie and now being pulled back up as a crimson head.

  14. #15294
    The Lightbringer downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Do we really want to import the shitshow that is the current composition of Parliament?

    Don't we have enough problems?

    I mean Trump is a fucking disaster and an embarrassment, but he's a day at the beach compared to Brexit.
    You can't abandon your parents when they get dementia and start shitting themselves in public. Sometimes you have to take them in and provide the care they need.

    I don't know what word in the language—I can’t find one—that applies to people of that kind, who are willing to sacrifice the literal—the existence of organized human life, not in the distant future, so they can put a few more dollars in highly overstuffed pockets. The word “evil” doesn’t begin to approach it.
    - Noam Chomsky

  15. #15295
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    At this point I think she listens to no one but herself with her stompy feet screeching about how they must have her deal that is crap. No one likes and should have been burned on first death. Not risen as a zombie and now being pulled back up as a crimson head.
    I don't like May and agree she doesn't listen but I'm left feeling what else could she do? I, also, agree that the deal is crap but, again, what else could she do? It's all well and good saying I don't like it but unless there is an alternative where we will end up is worse.

    It seems to me that the majority of parliament has been happy to snipe from the sidelines but when the time comes to offer a solution, they snipe some more.

  16. #15296
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

    I'm not so sure. Lab had their own problems, in particular the PLP wanted rid of Corbyn, but once the election result came in and was much better than expected they just decided to keep their heads down and hope that the Tories would tear themselves apart. I don't think there is any way they would have gone against Corbyn and exposed their own divisions.
    I think TIG and Tom Watsons Future Britain Group are pretty strong indicators that the PLP are very frustrated with Corbyn (no shit right?). If May had offered them some opportunities to weaken his position by offering olive branches I think they would of taken it.

    Still we are on hypotheticals here so....agree to disagree?

  17. #15297
    Seems like the most sensible thing to do is get EU to give extension for second vote where the choices are Stay vs Leave w/ specific deal(s).

  18. #15298
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If only things were that simple. You can't just ignore voters because the result is unpalatable.
    General elections mean people can change their mind every 5 years about who should govern them, I see no problem changing your mind after 2 1/2 years of the shitshow we all witness.

    That said, I don't think remain would even win in a new referendum. If the people actually changed their mind about it, there would be mass demonstrations expressing this. News of such have not reached me here in germany.

  19. #15299
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    MPs have voted to approve the Spelman/Dromey amendment. (which rejects no-deal at anytime)

    Ayes: 312

    Noes: 308

    Majority: 4
    Wow, that's a lot closer than I estimated. I would've bet money on a result as clear as yesterday. But my prediction still holds true. Wait for the approval of an extension request tomorrow. And on the EU's laughter echoing through Brussels on Friday when May actually asks for an extension without any clue on what to do with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    That is a huge result, and proves beyond any doubt that there is no appetite for no-deal. Dribbles can tick tock all he likes, this is one more nail in his coffin.
    The automatism that is in place is no-deal. What the UK parliament votes for is irrelevant to the process until a time when they seriously consider revoking A50 altogether. I'm not sure stupid May is prepared to do that. But she should. Because if anything is clear, it's that the EU is absolutely not going to blink on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    We elected donald trump as president. Don't count on the US doing jack or shit unless you are willing to pony up a lot of trumpgeld if an emergency comes up.
    Neither Trump nor Brexit will change that the UK are essentially European, whether they like it or not. And they are family, whether they like it or not. Even if the UK turned nazi and started WW3, they would at some point in the future be welcomed back. Just like it happened with Germany. So, this little episode? It's just that, an episode. Exactly like Trump is just an episode. We are irritated by their antics. But we also know that it's only temporary. We're doing our bit to, kind of, keep the house from burning down, but later we'll keep defending the fort together.

    Or, as I like to put it... I might fight with my brother over stupid bullshit once in a while, but if you want to pick a fight with him, you'll have to go through me first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Hmm,

    Laura Kuenssberg

    @bbclaurak
    MP s inside the voting lobbies report they've seen ministers abstaining - Cabinet ministers ignoring the whip
    That's what happens when the Prime Minister says "Tomorrow's vote will be absolutely free" the evening before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    I should copy some comments of Skroe, Slant and Nymrhod, so i can show them to Nexiters. Destroy that argument from those people straight away.
    Who are Nexiters and what argument?
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  20. #15300
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Who are Nexiters and what argument?
    "Next Exiters" - people that think a super successful no deal Brexit will lead to multiple other EU countries also choosing to leave the EU.

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