View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #16021
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yeah this is the discussion that needs to be had and perhaps it would be better to ask for an interpretation of the existing article from the ECJ first instead of trying to resolve this in parliament. It just came to me that they could technically do this and wanted to share it for the lulz
    I added a few bits and pieces. Thing is, under normal circumstances, this (A50 lacking proper shape) shouldn't be resolved in front of a court. Court's always the last solution. You'd want this debated and solved adequately in the EP, because they are the democratically elected ones (unlike judges, as qualified as they may be).

    I'm not sure the ECJ can publish... opinion pieces on its own. It has to be asked first. Anything else would probably be viewed as interference with the legislative.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  2. #16022
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I added a few bits and pieces. Thing is, under normal circumstances, this (A50 lacking proper shape) shouldn't be resolved in front of a court. Court's always the last solution. You'd want this debated and solved adequately in the EP, because they are the democratically elected ones (unlike judges, as qualified as they may be).

    I'm not sure the ECJ can publish... opinion pieces on its own. It has to be asked first. Anything else would probably be viewed as interference with the legislative.
    And anyone CAN ask (especially now). A court issuing an interpretation of law is what higher courts exist for. Then, with legal clarity given by the ECJ the parliament has a stronger basis to consider if an amendment is necessary. If the ECJ clarifies the nuances of the Article to a satisfactory degree, the parliament can not tamper with the international treaty that will be very hard to tamper with and rest on that ruling. If the parliament is not satisfied, then they can seek to amend the treaty. It seems like the safer approach politically. Ultimately the ECJ would still never be creating new law which is anathema to civic law systems like in most of the EU.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  3. #16023
    Big tings a gwaan!

    The Maybot can't even write a letter without shit hitting the fan. This morning the plan was to write to the EU asking for a short extension, there is now talk about an emergency debate now with the view to asking for a long extension.

  4. #16024
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    The Maybot can't even write a letter without shit hitting the fan.
    Not lying to parliament is such a difficult requirement to meet these days

  5. #16025
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    28,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    On your own country, does the left have a say in any department? Because it's usually the majority that gets to have a say in the staffing of departments? Even in countries that form almost exclusively coalition governments I struggle to think that ministries are suddenly handed to the opposition.
    If your political ideology had pull across the EU then people would elect left majorities to the EU Parliament which would confirm a left-aligned Commission.
    The people don't have a say at all.

    But thanks for admitting that the lobbyists are in charge and that the population is the opposition!
    "Why does everyone hate Americans?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This is our planet. You just live here.

  6. #16026
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The people don't have a say at all.

    But thanks for admitting that the lobbyists are in charge and that the population is the opposition!
    Again, what? Are the people denied the right to vote? Don't left parties exist in all EU states? How do they not have a say at all? GUE-NGL actually exists and gets a decent number of votes you know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Big tings a gwaan!

    The Maybot can't even write a letter without shit hitting the fan. This morning the plan was to write to the EU asking for a short extension, there is now talk about an emergency debate now with the view to asking for a long extension.
    She has no practical authority tbh so yeah, if I was the EU I would want the parliament to also sign it before committing to anything.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  7. #16027
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    28,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Again, what? Are the people denied the right to vote? Don't left parties exist in all EU states? How do they not have a say at al?
    You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

    Let's try this to make it clear: THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT HAS ALMOST NO POWER WHATSOEVER
    "Why does everyone hate Americans?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This is our planet. You just live here.

  8. #16028
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Not lying to parliament is such a difficult requirement to meet these days
    People accuse The Maybot of being discriminatory. This is false, it's tone deafness is applied to everyone, equally.

  9. #16029
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

    Let's try this to make it clear: THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT HAS ALMOST NO POWER WHATSOEVER
    The European parliament confirms the Commission. It can actually call for the Commission to resign, which it has done in the past. The Santer Commission resigned at the threat of a vote of no confidence.

    Really, keep going, this is a wonderful opportunity.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  10. #16030
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

    Let's try this to make it clear: THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT HAS ALMOST NO POWER WHATSOEVER
    What the fuck are you mumbling about? So who has the power then in your opinion?

  11. #16031
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And anyone CAN ask (especially now). A court issuing an interpretation of law is what higher courts exist for. Then, with legal clarity given by the ECJ the parliament has a stronger basis to consider if an amendment is necessary. If the ECJ clarifies the nuances of the Article to a satisfactory degree, the parliament can not tamper with the international treaty that will be very hard to tamper with and rest on that ruling. If the parliament is not satisfied, then they can seek to amend the treaty. It seems like the safer approach politically. Ultimately the ECJ would still never be creating new law which is anathema to civic law systems like in most of the EU.
    Your method would work in theory. But I'd like to emphasize that we'd be stretching the limits of what the judicative is allowed to do. It's not the ECJ's job to "interpret laws into a functioning state". I think we can safely say that A50 is inadequate in its current form under any interpretation. All the ECJ can do is safeguard the treaties as a whole and limit A50 for the time being until it is fixed. This period of time could very well take decades, so you may be practically correct, but I wouldn't rest on just the interpretation of a court and then go "Ok, as long as they decide like that, we don't have to fix it."

    See, courts tend to change their minds once in a while. As legislative, you don't want that to happen without you saying in which direction they're allowed to change their minds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Big tings a gwaan!

    The Maybot can't even write a letter without shit hitting the fan. This morning the plan was to write to the EU asking for a short extension, there is now talk about an emergency debate now with the view to asking for a long extension.
    The EU (Barnier), knowing its customer, has already stated it would decide next week. They know the letter won't be in time to make a proper decision tomorrow. That's how low the EU thinks of the UK Government at the moment.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  12. #16032
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    See, courts tend to change their minds once in a while. As legislative, you don't want that to happen without you saying in which direction they're allowed to change their minds.
    I am simply uncertain that the parliament would fix A50. There is a perverse incentive to keep it broken so that the individual members can exploit it if needed.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  13. #16033
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Again, what? Are the people denied the right to vote? Don't left parties exist in all EU states? How do they not have a say at all? GUE-NGL actually exists and gets a decent number of votes you know.
    What he means is he wants to decide if we get a European carrier or not. He wants to decide on policy. All of it. Typical anarcho/dictatorial bullshit. Everyone else is just an extra to his personal hero story.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  14. #16034
    Last week in the commons:
    In the absence of a deal, seeking such a short and, critically, one-off extension would be downright reckless and completely at odds with the position that this House adopted only last night, making a no-deal scenario far more, rather than less, likely.
    Today:
    We [don't have a deal, and] are seeking a short, one-off extension.
    Not lying is difficult.

    Edit - thankfully it might not matter
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-03-20 at 12:06 PM.

  15. #16035
    Merely a Setback Kangodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    28,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    What the fuck are you mumbling about? So who has the power then in your opinion?
    Lobby groups, commissions, the ECB, etc.

    It's a widely accepted fact that the EU is undemocratic as hell. It's why so many people want it dismantled, it's why it is being dismantled.
    "Why does everyone hate Americans?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    This is our planet. You just live here.

  16. #16036
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The EU (Barnier), knowing its customer, has already stated it would decide next week. They know the letter won't be in time to make a proper decision tomorrow. That's how low the EU thinks of the UK Government at the moment.
    I think Barnier also intended to give May time to gather visible support for the WA but Bercow killed that notion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Lobby groups, commissions, the ECB, etc.

    It's a widely accepted fact that the EU is undemocratic as hell. It's why so many people want it dismantled, it's why it is being dismantled.
    Just because it's widely accepted (if it is, you offer no proof) does not make it fact.

    Btw, the ECB is directly appointed by the European Council, the directly elected heads of government of the member states after consultation with Parliament. So they are appointed exactly like any central banker in the world from the directly elected executives. I have no idea what you mean when you say "commissions".

    As for Lobby Groups: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/e...eu-infographic
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-03-20 at 12:12 PM.
    Hail Lilith and see you in Hell!

  17. #16037
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Lobby groups, commissions, the ECB, etc.

    It's a widely accepted fact that the EU is undemocratic as hell. It's why so many people want it dismantled, it's why it is being dismantled.
    Widely held misconception by uneducated people*

  18. #16038
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am simply uncertain that the parliament would fix A50. There is a perverse incentive to keep it broken so that the individual members can exploit it if needed.
    I don't see it. If this episode has shown us anything, it's that A50 is a danger to the integrity of the EU core. It's highly exceptional that any comprehensive set of basic rules for a governing body (and I'm just not calling it constitution, because there is a conscious effort not to call it constitution) has an article that allows leaving in the first place. This is unprecedented. And it is highly inadequate... the first draft of such a possibility, really. It should have never been written into the treaties like that. It's obviously half-baked and needs a lot more cooking before it's done.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  19. #16039
    Well Maybot is speaking and it's found it's voice. It's leaving me totally flacid, probably the most disappointing thing I've seen (or heard I guess) all day.

  20. #16040
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's a widely accepted fact that the EU is undemocratic as hell
    "It's widely accepted by people who believe the EU is undemocratic as hell that the EU is undemocratic as hell"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •