View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #17961
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    "Nationalism for me, but not for you" seems to be the European nationalist motto then.
    It's really mostly about identity. It's how the nations in Europe became nations. At some point you decided that the city over the river ain't that bad and it's really the French both of you hate more.

    So now, we're in the process of deciding the French ain't that bad, as long as we all collectively hate on Russia. I mean, if you detach emotions from it, nationalism is a necessary step in nationbuilding. Italians are vastly different from Germans, but in comparison to the Japanese, they're practically twins that just like vanilla instead of chocolate ice and the differences ain't all that bad, really. Once you come to think about it.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  2. #17962
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It's a French word actually and most popular there. The ideology of sovereignty, largely defined by its opposition to any form of federalism.
    Ok, so they're game for the EU as long as it's centralized?

    I'm pretty sure that's not how they think, so I'm probably still not getting it.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  3. #17963
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    It's normal to be confused because by definition the nationalism in Europe/EU is an contradiction.

    Look at this way. We don't want the Polish in West Europe so are we going to work with the Polish racist to kick out the polish? Hell no, no way that the Polish government would accept that.

    The idea is was that all sides hate Muslims and dislike the EU
    And add that some sides wants to ship their muslims to the other nationalists, and while they all hate the EU, some are depending on EU funding. They'll loose traction over the next decade, when the "immigration crisis" is a thing of the past and their inability to get anything done in EU is clear.

  4. #17964
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Oh, I'm aware of it. But you have to convince them of it. And for some reason, you don't strike me as the idiot nationalist.
    I'm trying hard not to be one. People can't handle the nuance between nationalist and chauvinist these days and the former has absorbed all the unsavoury connotations of the latter.

  5. #17965
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But economic hardship could trigger further popular discontent with the political status quo and drive some to the far right as a protest vote. And that is not unlikely.
    Or the far left.

  6. #17966
    Agreed, the far right (at least in Denmark) have no noteworthy policy in regards to the climate change challenges.

  7. #17967
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "As is" as in "in current borders", not necessarily "in exactly same cultural mix" (nationalists tend to prefer more homogeneous cultures, especially when some cultures are actively separatist).
    No, they do not care for "current borders" they try to impose their delusions on others.
    They just love to come up with their own ideas where the borders should be.

  8. #17968
    Ford to close Bridgend factory by September 2020

    That's Ford and Honda now, iirc? Brexit will surely bring both back, somehow.

  9. #17969
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    No, they do not care for "current borders" they try to impose their delusions on others.
    They hate losing things; "current borders" was about that.

    They just love to come up with their own ideas where the borders should be.
    They might dream about it but they don't actually plan to go to war over it.

  10. #17970
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    nah, it's much akin to what the British want; they are game for a common trade area but that's it. Things like the EU budget or Schengen after all impinge on absolute sovereignty. Le Pen tries to present herself as such (though honestly I find the only reason she can get away with it is that France disenfranchises minorities without the far right's help).
    That's stupid, though. I mean, the EU has taken Schengen and the trade area pretty far, but you can't go much further unless you start aligning national standards. You know, the actual legislation the EU does mostly. Harmonization.

    Sometimes I'd like to slap some sense into them. And whenever they can't explain how they'd like to accomplish their fairy tale pony land, I'd like fucking John Cena to come along and dropkick them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    I'm trying hard not to be one. People can't handle the nuance between nationalist and chauvinist these days and the former has absorbed all the unsavoury connotations of the latter.
    Chauvinist? Isn't that like... sexist stuff? I may have to actually look up the definition for the word after having ignored it for decades.
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    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  11. #17971
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Agreed, the far right (at least in Denmark) have no noteworthy policy in regards to the climate change challenges.
    The far right never has any policy aside from "scare everyone into voting you" scheme. Climate change doesn't work for the far-right, because everyone's already scared. Including the big parties. The far-right always exploits or invents threats that haven't been there before. And they are the only ones that have realised it and of course the only ones with a solution.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The original meaning of the world was political. Chauvinism is nationalism with the added delusion that your people are the best there are and everyone else is just worse. I'd say most US nationalists are chauvinists instead.
    Chauvinism can be used to mean group supremacism though and the most common use is that of male chauvinism that believes that men are superior to women on an intrinsic level.
    Hmm, I understand... so in that context, nationalism seems sensible. Unfortunately, the term was pretty much robbed by the far-right.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  12. #17972
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Hmm, I understand... so in that context, nationalism seems sensible. Unfortunately, the term was pretty much robbed by the far-right.
    Today, you may argue that there is little difference and chauvinism is really just nationalism on steroids.

    But classical nationalism used to be a positive force. It fueled the German and Italian reunifications and several movements for ethnic self-government or even just cultural awakening, so to speak, in 19th century Europe. Nationalism in that sense is the desire to improve or lift up one's nation - not necessarily at the expense of others (though in practice it tends to manifest that way). As an example, the movement to have Hungarian translations - and worthy ones at that - for all of Shakespeare's works was borne of nationalism, to prove that Hungarian is not just a language for peasants in a backwater province of the Habsburgs.
    Last edited by Flarelaine; 2019-06-06 at 04:42 PM.

  13. #17973
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They hate losing things; "current borders" was about that.
    "Current borders" sounds like they would be satisfied with that, they won't.

  14. #17974
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    "Current borders" sounds like they would be satisfied with that, they won't.
    Some do, some don't, and some will be stopped by costs of getting more, it's wrong to generalize.

  15. #17975
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Some do, some don't, and some will be stopped by costs of getting more, it's wrong to generalize.
    Then you're taking back your initial post about them?
    Good.

  16. #17976
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Baden-Wuerttemberg
    Posts
    5,233
    wonder how it will be sold in UK they will miss the opportunity on purpose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and page 1000 of the saga arrived. >4 months to go unless a miracle or desaster happens

  17. #17977
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Then you're taking back your initial post about them?
    Good.
    Expansionism isn't integral part of nationalism. "Keeping what is already ours" is.

  18. #17978
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Expansionism isn't integral part of nationalism. "Keeping what is already ours" is.
    Back to generalizing, I see...

  19. #17979
    Raab's plan of shutting down parliament to push through a no deal has been ripped apart by Bercow

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48541352

  20. #17980
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Raab's plan of shutting down parliament to push through a no deal has been ripped apart by Bercow

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48541352
    Did anybody really think that Bercow would allow them to do that?

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