View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #18581
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    And here we have a Farage / UKIP voter to prove the point being made.
    Likely Dribbles and mr dupesalot.

  2. #18582
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    And here we have a Farage / UKIP voter to prove the point being made.
    You should have also mentioned how the Parliament can sack the entire commission and has threatened to do so in the past (only for them to mass resign to avoid forcing the parliament's hand).

  3. #18583
    Given the existence of the House of Lords I've never quite understood how Brits can get themselves to complain about the Commission being this horribly undemocratic entity. Unless of course it is based on the notion that undemocratic means: "The UK cannot unilaterally control this" as has been implied from time to time.

  4. #18584
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    Given the existence of the House of Lords I've never quite understood how Brits can get themselves to complain about the Commission being this horribly undemocratic entity. Unless of course it is based on the notion that undemocratic means: "The UK cannot unilaterally control this" as has been implied from time to time.
    Anyone complaining about the EU being undemocratic has a lot to learn about how Parliament in the UK operates. We had a chance back in 2010 to change that system, and people overwhelmingly said "We can't be fucked" so the idea that the any Brexit leave vote was one based on a desire to take back control of our sovereignty just smacks of "Basically I'm a bit of a cunt who doesn't like non-British people, but this excuse sounds much more palatable to admit in public so I'll tout it everywhere despite how hollow it really is after a moments investigation".

    Mainly because after the weeks of "Leave voters are a bunch of racists" this was the popoular excuse for voting leave. "Muh sovereignty". Okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The things I pointed out are 100% factual points about the game

  5. #18585
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    Given the existence of the House of Lords I've never quite understood how Brits can get themselves to complain about the Commission being this horribly undemocratic entity. Unless of course it is based on the notion that undemocratic means: "The UK cannot unilaterally control this" as has been implied from time to time.
    Welcome to the British perspective. That is exactly why they think it's undemocratic. See, the main problem is that other nations get a say, too. And Britons never shall be slaves... or something. Cooperation to them means you duck when they shoot into the crowd with a machine gun. Literally, worst misunderstanding in Indian history.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  6. #18586
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    Now I'm not sure if you're making an intelligent and nuanced argument that Farage does not sufficiently oppose globalism nor censorship to be a viable political force and that his presence is only splitting the Brexit majority vote, or if you're just another pro-EU millennial cretin.
    Farage is actually uniting Brexit voters, not splitting them, and this is a huge problem for May & co.

    What will you be voting in the EP elections? UKIP? BNP?

  7. #18587
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Anyone complaining about the EU being undemocratic has a lot to learn about how Parliament in the UK operates. We had a chance back in 2010 to change that system, and people overwhelmingly said "We can't be fucked" so the idea that the any Brexit leave vote was one based on a desire to take back control of our sovereignty just smacks of "Basically I'm a bit of a cunt who doesn't like non-British people, but this excuse sounds much more palatable to admit in public so I'll tout it everywhere despite how hollow it really is after a moments investigation".

    Mainly because after the weeks of "Leave voters are a bunch of racists" this was the popoular excuse for voting leave. "Muh sovereignty". Okay.
    It is possible to believe the eu and Westminster are undemocratic. In fact that is the majority position amongst the British electorate.

    I think you are referring to the 2010 alternative vote referendum. I had very mixed feelings about that referendum. On the one hand it would have brought about a fairer system. On the other a) it was a terrible mess caused by compromises and didn't really approach proportional representation's fairness and b) it was designed to help the liberal democrats stay in power forever. Given that the LD's had explicitly lied their way into government and betrayed all their voters I wasn't going to endorse that so I voted against it: as did most people.

    As a result we didn't get a slightly fairer electoral system: on the other people who are considering lying through their f***ing teeth and betraying their own voters to get on in politics are unlikely to be encouraged by Nick Clegg's example. (Before Slant, who is terminally clueless, inevitably says something here about Farage and Boris Johnson, I should point out that both never betray their own audience of twats. They give them exactly what they want, which is mostly casual and petty racism. )

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    And here we have a Farage / UKIP voter to prove the point being made.
    You kind of proved his point there. And I am guessing you still don't understand why.

  8. #18588
    Quote Originally Posted by starwalp View Post
    It is possible to believe the eu and Westminster are undemocratic. In fact that is the majority position amongst the British electorate.
    Yes, and your point is? It’s possible to believe in God. It’s possible to believe the earth is flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by starwalp View Post
    Given that the LD's had explicitly lied their way into government and betrayed all their voters I wasn't going to endorse that so I voted against it: as did most people.
    No. The Lib Dems did not lie their way into government nor did they betray their voters. This is explicitly & comprehensively untrue.

    The truth is: a LD-Lab coalition was unworkable. The LDs were in a coalition with the Tories and stopped the worst excesses of Cameron's first ministry.

    - The allocation of 0.7% of GDP to International Development, both in practice and as law
    - The raising of the Income Tax personal allowance from £6475 to £10,600
    - Steve Webb delivered the “triple lock” on the State Pension
    - Nick Clegg saw through the pupil premium of (eventually) £1320 per primary school child and £935 for secondary children to reduce the attainment gap in England and Wales
    - A £2.5 billion banking levy
    - Free school meals for infant-school children and in the first three years in primary school in England
    - Vince Cable vetoed a proposed “fire-at-will” employment law
    - Stopping welfare cuts and ensuring benefits kept up with inflation
    - Same sex marriage legislation
    - 15 hours free child care for disadvantaged children
    - Prohibition of the export of chemicals to where it is known they may be used to carry out the death penalty
    - 5p charge on plastic bags.

  9. #18589
    Quote Originally Posted by starwalp View Post
    It is possible to believe the eu and Westminster are undemocratic. In fact that is the majority position amongst the British electorate.

    I think you are referring to the 2010 alternative vote referendum.
    It was half that, and half that the current system seems to be "vote for a party who bow to what a group of about 5 people decide" rather than the democracy "as advertised" (you vote for an individual who represents your local needs in parliament). And for so long everyone grew up in the former and doesn't seem to question it as "how things should be". But this is all leagues over my head really, but peoples acceptance of the "politics" of it all is pretty pessimistic or cynical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    No. The Lib Dems did not lie their way into government nor did they betray their voters. This is explicitly & comprehensively untrue.
    That's certainly not the way every one of my former LibDem voting friends felt after 2010 - something something tuition fees something... (Granted they would have been of an age where university would have been recent memory). Maybe not so much the lying into government but the betrayal part seems spot on. You could argue that there were no alternatives for them at the time or that the feeling of betrayal is ultimately unjustified; but that ship very much has sailed...
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The things I pointed out are 100% factual points about the game

  10. #18590
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    That's certainly not the way every one of my former LibDem voting friends felt after 2010 - something something tuition fees something... (Granted they would have been of an age where university would have been recent memory). Maybe not so much the lying into government but the betrayal part seems spot on. You could argue that there were no alternatives for them at the time or that the feeling of betrayal is ultimately unjustified; but that ship very much has sailed...
    Sure - but what choice did they have? They were in coalition. They won some battles and lost others. But, yep, that ship sailed and Cameron had his second ministry (with a Tory majority) and wasn't that a wonderful thing!

    There's a certain amount of cutting off of noses to spite faces on the centre left. I've always thought this. Who was the real enemy for all the LD voters who ditched them in 2015? Did they go back to voting Labour? Coz that didn't work, did it.

  11. #18591
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Sure - but what choice did they have? They were in coalition. They won some battles and lost others. But, yep, that ship sailed and Cameron had his second ministry (with a Tory majority) and wasn't that a wonderful thing!

    There's a certain amount of cutting off of noses to spite faces on the centre left. I've always thought this. Who was the real enemy for all the LD voters who ditched them in 2015? Did they go back to voting Labour? Coz that didn't work, did it.
    I mean, I don't get the idea that just because LD were unable to enact their manifesto due to being the small end of a coalition, suddenly people had to abandon the principles that lead them to vote Lib Dem in the first place but that's probably because I see things as too simplistic. Sure they failed to get their cap or freeze or removal of tuition fees through (or w/e the precise issue there was) but does that suddenly mean that one changes their personal politics to support another party? Confused me, anyway.

    So yeah, nit-wits the lot of them, disappointed or otherwise imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The things I pointed out are 100% factual points about the game

  12. #18592
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    That's certainly not the way every one of my former LibDem voting friends felt after 2010 - something something tuition fees something... (Granted they would have been of an age where university would have been recent memory). Maybe not so much the lying into government but the betrayal part seems spot on. You could argue that there were no alternatives for them at the time or that the feeling of betrayal is ultimately unjustified; but that ship very much has sailed...
    Problem was the only stable government that could have happened at the time was Conservative leading with LD following. The only other combination that could have worked would have been Labour/LD/Extremely hated at the time south of the border SNP and a few others. It simply put wouldn't have worked especially since Gordon Brown at the time was hated.

    LD could only been there basically be there to basically pull back the worst of the Tory shit. Which we have seen since they were punished by the electorate is that the Tories when left to run as a majority of their own are absolutely psychotic. Sad thing is that it seems many LD voters ended up punishing LD by voting Conservative for some reason or voting Labour in a place Labour never had a chance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    There's a certain amount of cutting off of noses to spite faces on the centre left. I've always thought this. Who was the real enemy for all the LD voters who ditched them in 2015? Did they go back to voting Labour? Coz that didn't work, did it.
    Seems to be an issue not just here but elsewhere. The right seems to be unified while the left seems to be stumbling over each other saying "They're not left enough so they're really rightists neo libz." or some shit like that by the far left and the centre left pointing out the far left isn't as electable and some even would rather vote centre right than far left.

  13. #18593
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post



    No. The Lib Dems did not lie their way into government nor did they betray their voters. This is explicitly & comprehensively untrue.

    The truth is: a LD-Lab coalition was unworkable. The LDs were in a coalition with the Tories and stopped the worst excesses of Cameron's first ministry.

    - The allocation of 0.7% of GDP to International Development, both in practice and as law
    - The raising of the Income Tax personal allowance from £6475 to £10,600
    - Steve Webb delivered the “triple lock” on the State Pension
    - Nick Clegg saw through the pupil premium of (eventually) £1320 per primary school child and £935 for secondary children to reduce the attainment gap in England and Wales
    - A £2.5 billion banking levy
    - Free school meals for infant-school children and in the first three years in primary school in England
    - Vince Cable vetoed a proposed “fire-at-will” employment law
    - Stopping welfare cuts and ensuring benefits kept up with inflation
    - Same sex marriage legislation
    - 15 hours free child care for disadvantaged children
    - Prohibition of the export of chemicals to where it is known they may be used to carry out the death penalty
    - 5p charge on plastic bags.
    Yes, Clegg used to bring up lists of stuff like this. No one believed him, because it was impossible to tell whether these were measures he had fought for or just concessions to the centre-ground that Cameron wanted to keep the right of his own party in check.

    I have to say though that list is extraordinarily weak. Like, I have a hard time understanding why any liberal could possibly mention welfare in that context. Maybe in some obsessively literal/legal sense welfare cuts were "stopped" but no one working in or dependent on the system could possibly sanction that sentiment.

    2010-15 led to some of the cruelest welfare changes in post-war British history. Thousands of people died for example, because they were thrown off disability benefit. Many people were forced into effectively working for a pound an hour through the imposition of US-style workfare.

    On a personal level I saw some of the worst changes. A lifelong friend of mine who had a steel rod in her back had her benefits contested - she's been in crippling pain all her life. She's dead now-thanks Nick. My brother's girlfriend who has a serious neurological problems had her benefits removed and is now entirely dependent financially and physically on my brother. There are other stories where the effects of government policy had more complex and nuanced effects that nonetheless inflicted great misery on my friends and family than for other than to save a pittance for the sake of some meaningless statistic uttered to an indifferent audience by some government spin doctor.

    I honestly can't understand how any one with a soul could possibly have supported any aspect of that government. The Tories perspective is at least comprehensible-they simply enjoy the suffering they inflict on people for its own sake, at least that is consistent.

    Btw As someone who was claiming benefits at the time I'd happily pay income tax on my current income over and above the 6-10k bracket to help the vulnerable. The difference between earning a little and nothing is like night and day.

  14. #18594
    Can Nick tuition fees Clegg even be a true Lib Dem on a multi-million dollar salary at facebook? I suppose he's making sure they pay their fair share of taxes isn't he?

  15. #18595
    Quote Originally Posted by starwalp View Post
    I honestly can't understand how any one with a soul could possibly have supported any aspect of that government.
    Because the alternative was to have one or more additional elections right at the time when the financial crisis was screwing the UK over.

  16. #18596
    Quote Originally Posted by poilotha View Post
    And? All that government did was make the problem much worse by continuing to hand over money to the banks at the expense of the poor.
    And if the money didn't go to the banks from the government they would have gone to them from elsewhere. Like outstanding loans. Just because something was bad doesn't mean it couldn't be worse.

    Such things stopped basically great depression 2.0

  17. #18597
    Quote Originally Posted by poilotha View Post
    And? All that government did was make the problem much worse by continuing to hand over money to the banks at the expense of the poor.
    Why is it that the people who know nothing about a topic are always the ones who talk the most about that topic

    In other news

  18. #18598
    Quote Originally Posted by poilotha View Post
    I suspect you are trying to appear condescending to mask financial illiteracy and are now trying to change the subject.
    And I suspect you know as much about the financial crisis as Yaxley Lennon does about not getting milkshaked, but there we are.

  19. #18599
    Quote Originally Posted by poilotha View Post
    I further suspect you are going to continue with your dumb-as-shit one sentence responses
    Correct!

    Quote Originally Posted by poilotha View Post
    and pathetic attempts to divert attention away from your own ignorance with stuff about Tommy Robinson or some other bullshit.
    You don't think racists getting milkshaked is funny?

  20. #18600
    Quote Originally Posted by rathaplan View Post
    Right, so you wanted the Liberal Democrats to join the conservatives to enable the most illiberal government in living memory.

    This had to happen because otherwise a trillion pounds in Sterling would not be transferred from poor to rich via the bailout and other bank subsidies.

    That's your justification? You understand that places you to the right of many Tories some of whom opposed the bailout? So did UKIP. Why do you think you are a centrist again?
    What part of the bailout covered debt from the public in default?

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