View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #19041
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Little England is an absolute laughing stock atm and will get squeezed between the far more powerful US, EU and China. You'll be as insignificant in comparison as Turkey.
    That's a little daring. Standalone UK will of course be less important than the EU, but they are certainly not on the level of Turkey. They have nuclear weapons for god's sake. Their GDP is almost 3x that of Turkey. Etc.

  2. #19042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And honestly with her imo goes any chance for a deal unless the government falls, which I just don't see happening.
    So no-deal is much more likely now. Hard crash it is.

    Let us see how many companies will jump ship and leave the u.k lol

  3. #19043
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Hahaha the exact opposite in fact. One thing Theresa did do was promise an extra 384 million a week to the NHS, beating the battle bus slogan, by 2023. Again you can thank brexiteers for pushing her in that direction to begin with...Next we will move on defense spending as your linked article confirms...

    You know Trump coming to dinner with our Queen gives us all an idea of how the olde allies and its people must have felt as Americans rode to our rescue once before in the 1940's to help us deal with the European problem at that time.

    Fitting it coincides with the 75th D-Day commemorations, don't you think?

    I would say the UK/US alliance is as strong as ever and unbreakable at this moment, thanks to your leader and our Nigel.

    The Queen must be very proud of how loyal her colonials are in the 21st C at her country's time of need.
    Truly the words of a moderate. Totally not the delusions of an extreme Brexiteer.

    You are a joke, sir. I hope an actual veteran gives you a slap, should one somehow read this.

  4. #19044
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Hahaha the exact opposite in fact. One thing Theresa did do was promise an extra 384 million a week to the NHS, beating the battle bus slogan, by 2023. Again you can thank brexiteers for pushing her in that direction to begin with...Next we will move on defense spending as your linked article confirms...
    Which is why I brought it up. The UK cannot afford to keep spending on the NHS and increasing defense spending (which it hasn't done meaningfully in years, much less +50%) without significantly raising taxes to pay for it. Which the UK won't do.

    In fact, that's the entire point of my article (which you didn't read). The UK wants to increase its defense spending... a little bit. But the offset from the lost of international standing by exiting the EU can only be achieved by standing up the British Armed Forces in a way they haven't been since the Early 1990s.

    How likely is that? I put somewhere around zero. In fact, I and most observers of the UK's long term disengagement from all things international bet the opposite - that the UK will cut its armed forces and foreign office even more, in order to make up for shortfalls elsewhere.

    This is why Brexit has been so insane from the get go. The UK plainly is not prepared to do what is necessary to cover for what it loses by being out of the EU. But it does it anyway. Why are you people choosing suicide? Because that's what it looks like. It looks like you're just calling it quits on everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    You know Trump coming to dinner with our Queen gives us all an idea of how the olde allies and its people must have felt as Americans rode to our rescue once before in the 1940's to help us deal with the European problem at that time.
    The UK's been an ally in name only for years now. That's the sad truth. It's not 2003 and the international position of the UK in 2019 is a very far cry from the Bush-Blair era. Your response to the Financial Crisis was austerity. You cut defense. You cut the foreign office. You cut foreign aid. You cut diplomats. You cut troops. You cut and cut and cut. This forced the US to find other partners: the French and Germans.

    The British retreat started well in advance of Brexit. I'd actually point the finger at the post-Iraq War navel gazing where you people spent a solid decade investigating the investigations, and having more inquiries than there were battles. Your national response to something you all collectively felt really bad over was to sell the house and retire to the country, so to speak. Brexit is the miserable end of that process in a sense. You sold your country cottage and decided to become hermits living in caves.





    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Fitting it coincides with the 75th D-Day commemorations, don't you think?
    1945 was a different world, of less and less relevance every year.

    The British Empire in 1945 was the third superpower in the world, and the second Superpower of the west. Bankrupt, but mighty. Decolonization cut it down to size, but the UK went well beyond that since 1992.

    This is not a lament for empire. Rather, it is a matching of word to deed. If the UK wants to be international influential, it has to do certain things - none of which it is actually doing. If it wants to be a bunch of hermits living in caves... well carry on.


    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    I would say the UK/US alliance is as strong as ever and unbreakable at this moment, thanks to your leader and our Nigel.
    "Strong as ever". LOL. The US Marines are flying their own F-35Bs off of YOUR Aircraft carrier because you people retired your Harriers years too early, and didn't want to pay enough money to buy your own F-35Bs yet.

    That's the kind of crap that's seen the US seek alternative partners since you ran out of bombs and missiles over Libya back in 2011.


    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The Queen must be very proud of how loyal her colonials are in the 21st C at her country's time of need.
    Not likely, but really, who cares. It's been a decade and a half since the words "Special Relationship" was uttered with any kind of frequency and seriousness on this side of the Atlantic.

    If we need to sort some minor border dispute, the State Department can call up Foreign Office. Otherwise, the UK isn't in the big leagues anymore.

  5. #19045
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That's a little daring. Standalone UK will of course be less important than the EU, but they are certainly not on the level of Turkey. They have nuclear weapons for god's sake. Their GDP is almost 3x that of Turkey. Etc.
    What on earth does nukes have to do with anything? GL saying that during a negotiation with the US "We got nukes!", nukes havent exactly improved Russias place on the international scene.

    Turkey has the chance to unleash millions of immigrants upon Europe and little England, something that a crackpot like Erdogan could easily use, as opposed to nukes.

  6. #19046
    Elemental Lord zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    LOL thus ends the glorious reign of Theresa May, who turned Brexit from a tragedy into a true shitshow.
    And yet, it's still downhill from here.

    The alternatives the conservatives have without triggering a general election are even worse than Theresa May.

  7. #19047
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    What on earth does nukes have to do with anything? GL saying that during a negotiation with the US "We got nukes!", nukes havent exactly improved Russias place on the international scene.

    Turkey has the chance to unleash millions of immigrants upon Europe and little England, something that a crackpot like Erdogan could easily use, as opposed to nukes.
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)

  8. #19048
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    And yet, it's still downhill from here.

    The alternatives the conservatives have without triggering a general election are even worse than Theresa May.
    Having watched PMQs on Youtube, the only routinely serious people in that room are the SNP.

    Labour and the Tories should drop the pretense, go full WWE, and start hitting each other with folded metal chairs. Because that's how serious they are.

  9. #19049
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)
    You mean like North Korea? Yeah I can see how it helped them

  10. #19050
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)
    I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

    My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

    Instead the opposite is likely to happen. The budget will get squeezed further, and the UK won't raise taxes. So out goes another 20,000 troops, 10 ships and 30 aircraft. Out goes another 500 diplomats. Out goes twenty consulates, which will be shuttered and some of the staff sent to embassies. These are variations of things the UK has done since 2008.

    Like this is mindboggling. National suicide is quite right. Is it really their wish to be 60 million people with a NHS and a giant moat around them? Are they going to be the healthcared hermit nation? I mean, if so fine... that's their right... but the pretense that Brexiters offer that a Brexited UK will be a liberated, empowered UK is entirely ridiculous without levels of investment they're not even close to giving.

    That's why staying in the EU has been the only decision that has ever made sense from the angle of foreign relations and UK global power. Besides the fact that being the US's man inside the EU made it invaluable to us, plainly, the UK wasn't and isn't ready to spend to offset what not having the EU entails, and EU is a something (a very good something) that is a lot better than a nothing.

    The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".

  11. #19051
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    You mean like North Korea? Yeah I can see how it helped them
    No, not like North Korea. Let's end this.

  12. #19052
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, not like North Korea. Let's end this.
    Agreed, nukes alone serves no purpose other than most likely preventing an invasion, they serve no negotiation purpose in the west. Something Russia still havent learned.

    My point in regards to Turkey, is that Erdogan has the ability to influence the EU in a far more costly economical and politically way than the UK does after a possible hard brexit. Does that mean that england is an english speaking turkey (haha), of course not.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2019-05-24 at 12:31 PM.

  13. #19053
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

    My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

    Instead the opposite is likely to happen. [...]

    The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".
    Sure, I agree that's not about nukes, it's about everything, my point was the same. It was just a side question. Yes, the UK will be more important than Turkey, sure, let's not get crazy here, but that's not a big point.

    On the big point and the leave. I was supporting Brexit originally, but I was damn not prepared that the UK were not actually ready to do anything there and were basically playing with fire asking their population whether they should exit the EU or not. I thought they were prepared, and I was thinking that this is good, because yes, there are tons of problems with the EU and I thought the UK on their own could do a better job than the EU did. But alas, like I said, they weren't actually doing this seriously. So even though I think that the EU has huge issues that are very hard to fix and that they are mostly not trying to fix, even though I think that the EU is mostly a dead-end and the UK (or any developed country really) would be better off alone, even with all that, I will say that the UK politicians were nuts to have a vote regarding the leave without being serious about it and without being prepared to do it. They did a terrible thing. So, in that sense, I agree with you, since the UK was just toying with the remain / leave, they should have just stayed in the EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Agreed, nukes alone serves no purpose other than most likely preventing an invasion, they serve no negotiation purpose in the west. Something Russia still havent learned.

    My point in regards to Turkey, is that Erdogan has the ability to influence the EU in a far more costly economical and politically way than the UK does after a possible hard brexit. Does that mean that england is an english speaking turkey (haha), of course not.
    OK, this helped, thanks. I see the point about Erdogan being able to inflict a lot of harm easier.

  14. #19054
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Otherwise, the UK isn't in the big leagues anymore.
    You're accidentally taking Dribbles seriously. I'm sure theres better use of your time.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  15. #19055
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    You're accidentally taking Dribbles seriously. I'm sure theres better use of your time.
    Not really today unfortunately. Long weekend. Office is closed ><

  16. #19056
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    As a Canadian, I'm loading popcorn into the microwave, ready to watch PM Boris Johnson rampage through the china shop.

  17. #19057
    So Theresa May, who gambled her parliamentary majority on an early election and failed miserably, I think we'll remember the fox hunting episode for many many years from now, has cried as she left office...well goodbye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Having watched PMQs on Youtube, the only routinely serious people in that room are the SNP.

    Labour and the Tories should drop the pretense, go full WWE, and start hitting each other with folded metal chairs. Because that's how serious they are.
    I'm sure WWE would offer more seriousness then these damned fools have. What's happening makes me wonder if an actual circus would.

    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    As a Canadian, I'm loading popcorn into the microwave, ready to watch PM Boris Johnson rampage through the china shop.
    Oh it's even better then that, the next PM after the next elections is likely to be this guy.

    Last edited by CostinR; 2019-05-24 at 01:03 PM.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

    Retired <Dreamstate> Gehennas

  18. #19058
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    On the big point and the leave. I was supporting Brexit originally, but I was damn not prepared that the UK were not actually ready to do anything there and were basically playing with fire asking their population whether they should exit the EU or not. I thought they were prepared, and I was thinking that this is good, because yes, there are tons of problems with the EU and I thought the UK on their own could do a better job than the EU did. But alas, like I said, they weren't actually doing this seriously. So even though I think that the EU has huge issues that are very hard to fix and that they are mostly not trying to fix, even though I think that the EU is mostly a dead-end and the UK (or any developed country really) would be better off alone, even with all that, I will say that the UK politicians were nuts to have a vote regarding the leave without being serious about it and without being prepared to do it. They did a terrible thing. So, in that sense, I agree with you, since the UK was just toying with the remain / leave, they should have just stayed in the EU.
    So, you think US states are better of alone and without the US?
    As your statement about the EU is about as stupid as my question.
    - Lars

  19. #19059
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    So, you think US states are better of alone and without the US?
    As your statement about the EU is about as stupid as my question.
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.

    No, me thinking that the UK would be better off outside of the EU does not mean that I think any particular state in the US would be better off outside of the US. The circumstances are different.

  20. #19060
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.

    No, me thinking that the UK would be better off outside of the EU does not mean that I think any particular state in the US would be better off outside of the US. The circumstances are different.
    The only difference is how long they have been together.
    Practically every nation in the EU is better of in it than out of it. Are there stupid things in the EU that needs reform? Ofcourse, there's tonnes. Were somethings Go-ho as hell? Yeah, just look at how bad the Euro rollout was (had it been good, Greece would never have gotten on it).

    But in a global world you need to be in a bloc bigger than the fucking tiny little insignificant UK is. More so if you want to dictate terms to said world.
    - Lars

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