View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #19201
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In my country, government was 10% below the opposition throughout the map (but we had FOUR elections this day) so the Prime Minister is throwing in the towel and having elections. But I guess no chance the Tories would do the same. I do wonder how a GE would go for now.
    Let's hope a Greek election doesn't jeopardize the progress they're making. How's Greece doing, btw?
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  2. #19202
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Let's hope a Greek election doesn't jeopardize the progress they're making. How's Greece doing, btw?
    Government went into a panic and spend every last dime they have saved on welfare over less than a month. To understand the level of craziness, they voted VAT back to 13% on several improperly defined categories on Wednesday night, published the relevant law on Thursday evening and expected us to enforce it by MONDAY. One week later there are still entire categories of goods we still cannot figure out how to properly tax because government has given contrasting clarifications to different companies.
    People saw this for what it was and instead of voting for them for that welfare, the margin widened by about 5%.
    I have no clue how the new government will be able to keep up the expected surplus though (we will have new elections in the middle of the summer which is a disaster since the turnout will be pitiful). The VAT change alone has wiped out a billion in taxes for the next year.
    On how we are doing, there is recovery but it is not as strong as it could be and the government is very anti-business.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-05-26 at 11:30 PM.
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  3. #19203
    Holy Crap Anne Widdecombs reply to why people vote LD or Green is outright delusional.

  4. #19204
    Herald of the Titans dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Holy Crap Anne Widdecombs reply to why people vote LD or Green is outright delusional.
    Quite reasonable. Everyone who voted for the Brexit party voted for one reason. Most of the people who voted for the Greens probably voted to protect the oceans and ban plastic straws and hug trees or whatever...

    It cannot be right that remainers count every vote for the Greens as a remain vote.

    Our Ann spoke nothing but common sense.
    Brexiteers are the new remainers. To remain outside of the EU.

  5. #19205
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    It cannot be right that remainers count every vote for the Greens as a remain vote.
    > Claims the EU Parliamentary elections are a "confirmatory vote"
    > Green votes are not Remain votes despite the Green manifesto being explicitly Pro-Remain, in contrast to Labour

    What a crock of shit, lol. Eurosceptics couldn't even manage to prevent a pro-EU supermajority - the future looks a little bit brighter.
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    I have no obligation to condemn racists. You ideologues on the other hand, are an actual problem.

  6. #19206
    lol ok the Tory guy in Southhampton made me laugh.

    Laura: This is worst conservative run ever.

    Tory guy (jokingly): Well what about 1800s!

  7. #19207
    Quote Originally Posted by wasrathal View Post
    Congratulations on Change UK's stellar performance, I'm sure you are glad you donated to them.
    I absolutely am glad I donated to them, and would do so again if I could go back in time from today - funny how that works

    In order for them to be successful, they needed the (at the time still relatively toxic) Lib Dems to be absorbed into them + more desertions by good Conservative/Labour MPs - when neither of those things happened, the result was always going to be what it was tonight. Change UK forcing the Lib Dems to actually wake up and fight again was worth any donation amount.

  8. #19208
    Over 9000! Tommo's Avatar
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    Oh look Scotlands voted SNP almost entirely again, heres hoping Westminster and English politics continue to show their true colours and completely sideline our whole country.

    If we cant beat the propaganda, perhaps economic disaster will be enough to finally leave this joke of a union.

  9. #19209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    lol ok the Tory guy in Southhampton made me laugh.

    Laura: This is worst conservative run ever.

    Tory guy (jokingly): Well what about 1800s!
    Daniel Hannan being so dry there that he may have just accidentally trashed every Conservative entrant in the leadership contest lol.

    How he kept a straight face there whilst saying any of them were talented is a miracle.
    Last edited by Kronik85; 2019-05-27 at 12:19 AM.

  10. #19210
    The Lightbringer Zaydin's Avatar
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    Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections so can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?
    Last edited by Zaydin; 2019-05-27 at 01:05 AM.
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  11. #19211
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?
    The traditional center-left and center-right blocs lost, third parties - especially the Greens - made significant gains, so nobody is sure what the governing coalition will look like.

    Despite projections it seems like the turnout for eurosceptic parties was pretty lackluster; the projection seems to be two thirds of the parliament being constituted by Pro-EU parties.

    Sorry Dribs. XD
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    I have no obligation to condemn racists. You ideologues on the other hand, are an actual problem.

  12. #19212
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?
    In the UK, or in Europe overall?

    In Europe overall - no, not even close (more detail helpfully above ).

    In the UK - Brexit party has underperformed vs where they were polling, remain parties overall have beaten leave parties by around 10% (44% for Cons/UKIP/Brexit vs 54.5% for Labour/Lib Dem/Green/ChangeUK/SNP/Plaid).
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-05-27 at 01:04 AM.

  13. #19213
    The Lightbringer Zaydin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    In the UK, or in Europe overall?

    In Europe overall - no, not even close (more detail helpfully above ).

    In the UK - Brexit party has underperformed vs where they were polling, remain parties overall have beaten leave parties by around 10% (44% for Cons/UKIP/Brexit vs 54.5% for Labour/Lib Dem/Green/ChangeUK/SNP/Plaid).
    It was for Europe over all for the Europsceptics I saw being forecast to do well. So I'm guessing that hasn't happened then?

    Guess loudmouthed reactionaries are just really good at making it look like their position is more popular than it actually is.
    Last edited by Zaydin; 2019-05-27 at 01:12 AM.
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  14. #19214
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    I absolutely am glad I donated to them, and would do so again if I could go back in time from today - funny how that works

    In order for them to be successful, they needed the (at the time still relatively toxic) Lib Dems to be absorbed into them + more desertions by good Conservative/Labour MPs - when neither of those things happened, the result was always going to be what it was tonight. Change UK forcing the Lib Dems to actually wake up and fight again was worth any donation amount.
    Change UK will not exist in 2020.

    Heidi Allen already suggesting they will join the LibDems.

    They have no traction, they have no strategy and seem to haveno policies other than vague lines about going back to old days when people left politicians alone to get on with whatever shady shit they liked.

  15. #19215
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    Change UK will not exist in 2020.

    Heidi Allen already suggesting they will join the LibDems.

    They have no traction, they have no strategy and seem to haveno policies other than vague lines about going back to old days when people left politicians alone to get on with whatever shady shit they liked.
    If you are going to ignore everything in the quote, why do you bother quoting it in the first place?
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-05-27 at 01:09 AM.

  16. #19216
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's a running gag in German politics, really. We're all for saving the environment, but don't touch our Autobahn. For some reason we're as adamant about that as US rednecks about their gun rights. Arguably, both are just as dangerous, you could say.
    Except even with the lack of permanent speed limits, your traffic fatalities are lower than the USA's by population or mileage. Also lower than Canada's, though to a lesser extent.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  17. #19217
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But really the disappointment with the UK EU elections is the low, low turnout (while turnout increased throughout the EU).
    People generally just don't give a shit about EU elections, tbh. They never have. Might be a few more people interested this year because politics is a bit more in people's minds with Trump and Brexit and all that shit taking brain space. But, overall, the country couldn't care less.

  18. #19218
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The traditional center-left and center-right blocs lost,
    The Liberal Democrats send their regards.

  19. #19219
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    The Liberal Democrats send their regards.
    It's about time. Labour sold out under Blair and the UK needs a kick in the pants from the left.

    No, not you Jezza. Get back under your bridge.
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    I have no obligation to condemn racists. You ideologues on the other hand, are an actual problem.

  20. #19220
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

    My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

    Instead the opposite is likely to happen. The budget will get squeezed further, and the UK won't raise taxes. So out goes another 20,000 troops, 10 ships and 30 aircraft. Out goes another 500 diplomats. Out goes twenty consulates, which will be shuttered and some of the staff sent to embassies. These are variations of things the UK has done since 2008.

    Like this is mindboggling. National suicide is quite right. Is it really their wish to be 60 million people with a NHS and a giant moat around them? Are they going to be the healthcared hermit nation? I mean, if so fine... that's their right... but the pretense that Brexiters offer that a Brexited UK will be a liberated, empowered UK is entirely ridiculous without levels of investment they're not even close to giving.

    That's why staying in the EU has been the only decision that has ever made sense from the angle of foreign relations and UK global power. Besides the fact that being the US's man inside the EU made it invaluable to us, plainly, the UK wasn't and isn't ready to spend to offset what not having the EU entails, and EU is a something (a very good something) that is a lot better than a nothing.

    The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".
    Oh, there's actually a point to Brexit, although it's not any of the ones that seem to commonly get talked about - it's money, and the hyperwealthy.

    The global financial system - which is mostly (although not entirely) contiguous with the (very flawed but better than most alternatives) "Amerian Empire" has actually been cracking down lately on offshore financial havens (with the EU doing it's part as well) often via the unglamorous OECD; the process started years ago, when the more notorious Swiss banks were... persuaded that opening their books was in their own best interests. Ever since, tax-dodging high-finance has been keeping one step ahead, fleeing to Monaco and Panama and the Netherlands, then the Carribbean, and watching the slow relentless march of the regulators pacing down their trail - the only real stops left are Singapore, some European micro-states, and some of the low-population and less regulated US states.

    But Wyoming and Gurnsey don't exactly have much pull in the grand scheme of things - they've just been too inconsequential for anyone to bother with until now; the acountants will catch up, followed by the bureaucrats and politicians and eventually the law. And what then? The billionaires and the corporations that are de facto non-national soverign wealth funds because of the amount of liquidity they're sitting on need to flee (or need their money and accounting to flee somewhere.

    If only there was somewhere to go.. an island nation would be nice, but not a tiny one, oh no - it needs to be big enough to support a real, globally connected financial sector, but be independent enough not to be pushed around, and preferably have enough geopolitical heft that it can't be steamrolled by the EU, US, or OECD, and a military to back all that up, if need be (and have enough population to support all that) and as a bonus provide an acceptable place for the hyper-wealth individuals to reside, and the nascent megacorps to set up offices is desirable, too.

    And look, here's Britain, and The City of London; why, it's perfect for all that - and it even has a UN Security Council veto and a nuclear deterrent! What more could a banker (to use the term a little broadly) to the hyperwealthy possibly want? There's just two problems with Britain - it's part of the EU (and thus vulnerable to all those relentless EU regulations and bureaucrats who want to collect taxes to pay for things like having a functioning civilization), and it has (had) a government that sometimes had impulses to act in its citizen's best interests.

    Enter Brexit, a political movement whipped from fringe embers into a raging fire, that has: crippled the UK's government, deeply divided the nation, and is in the process of splitting the nation from the EU (and will incidentally likely destroy the United Kingdom as such leading to a fragmented 'former parts of the United Kingdom' that will only make the useful (to the hyper-wealthy) bits - the City, mostly, with England a distant second - even easier to hold captive), and leaving the public desperate and fragmented.

    And that is the "point" of Brexit - a tax haven with nukes and a UN veto; now, there are certainly other interests working to make it happen - the alt-right (that hates the EU), the nascent facists and would-be 21st Century Nazis, and the Russians, but while they're all putting weight behind Brexit for their own reasons, the clear motive seems to be what I've outlined above. (And before you judge, please note I'm not suggesting that this is an good plan for the hyperwealthy, just that that the controlling impulses seem clear.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

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