View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
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  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #19261
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That's a little daring. Standalone UK will of course be less important than the EU, but they are certainly not on the level of Turkey. They have nuclear weapons for god's sake. Their GDP is almost 3x that of Turkey. Etc.
    What on earth does nukes have to do with anything? GL saying that during a negotiation with the US "We got nukes!", nukes havent exactly improved Russias place on the international scene.

    Turkey has the chance to unleash millions of immigrants upon Europe and little England, something that a crackpot like Erdogan could easily use, as opposed to nukes.

  2. #19262
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    LOL thus ends the glorious reign of Theresa May, who turned Brexit from a tragedy into a true shitshow.
    And yet, it's still downhill from here.

    The alternatives the conservatives have without triggering a general election are even worse than Theresa May.

  3. #19263
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    What on earth does nukes have to do with anything? GL saying that during a negotiation with the US "We got nukes!", nukes havent exactly improved Russias place on the international scene.

    Turkey has the chance to unleash millions of immigrants upon Europe and little England, something that a crackpot like Erdogan could easily use, as opposed to nukes.
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)

  4. #19264
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    And yet, it's still downhill from here.

    The alternatives the conservatives have without triggering a general election are even worse than Theresa May.
    Having watched PMQs on Youtube, the only routinely serious people in that room are the SNP.

    Labour and the Tories should drop the pretense, go full WWE, and start hitting each other with folded metal chairs. Because that's how serious they are.
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  5. #19265
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)
    You mean like North Korea? Yeah I can see how it helped them

  6. #19266
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Ask Skroe what nukes have to do with the importance of a country in international questions.

    You were saying that the UK are as unimportant as Turkey. I disagree, this is not true, the UK are much more important than Turkey. Partly because of nukes. (But there's also GDP, which I mentioned, and ten other things, which I didn't.)
    I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

    My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

    Instead the opposite is likely to happen. The budget will get squeezed further, and the UK won't raise taxes. So out goes another 20,000 troops, 10 ships and 30 aircraft. Out goes another 500 diplomats. Out goes twenty consulates, which will be shuttered and some of the staff sent to embassies. These are variations of things the UK has done since 2008.

    Like this is mindboggling. National suicide is quite right. Is it really their wish to be 60 million people with a NHS and a giant moat around them? Are they going to be the healthcared hermit nation? I mean, if so fine... that's their right... but the pretense that Brexiters offer that a Brexited UK will be a liberated, empowered UK is entirely ridiculous without levels of investment they're not even close to giving.

    That's why staying in the EU has been the only decision that has ever made sense from the angle of foreign relations and UK global power. Besides the fact that being the US's man inside the EU made it invaluable to us, plainly, the UK wasn't and isn't ready to spend to offset what not having the EU entails, and EU is a something (a very good something) that is a lot better than a nothing.

    The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".
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  7. #19267
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    You mean like North Korea? Yeah I can see how it helped them
    No, not like North Korea. Let's end this.

  8. #19268
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, not like North Korea. Let's end this.
    Agreed, nukes alone serves no purpose other than most likely preventing an invasion, they serve no negotiation purpose in the west. Something Russia still havent learned.

    My point in regards to Turkey, is that Erdogan has the ability to influence the EU in a far more costly economical and politically way than the UK does after a possible hard brexit. Does that mean that england is an english speaking turkey (haha), of course not.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2019-05-24 at 12:31 PM.

  9. #19269
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

    My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

    Instead the opposite is likely to happen. [...]

    The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".
    Sure, I agree that's not about nukes, it's about everything, my point was the same. It was just a side question. Yes, the UK will be more important than Turkey, sure, let's not get crazy here, but that's not a big point.

    On the big point and the leave. I was supporting Brexit originally, but I was damn not prepared that the UK were not actually ready to do anything there and were basically playing with fire asking their population whether they should exit the EU or not. I thought they were prepared, and I was thinking that this is good, because yes, there are tons of problems with the EU and I thought the UK on their own could do a better job than the EU did. But alas, like I said, they weren't actually doing this seriously. So even though I think that the EU has huge issues that are very hard to fix and that they are mostly not trying to fix, even though I think that the EU is mostly a dead-end and the UK (or any developed country really) would be better off alone, even with all that, I will say that the UK politicians were nuts to have a vote regarding the leave without being serious about it and without being prepared to do it. They did a terrible thing. So, in that sense, I agree with you, since the UK was just toying with the remain / leave, they should have just stayed in the EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Agreed, nukes alone serves no purpose other than most likely preventing an invasion, they serve no negotiation purpose in the west. Something Russia still havent learned.

    My point in regards to Turkey, is that Erdogan has the ability to influence the EU in a far more costly economical and politically way than the UK does after a possible hard brexit. Does that mean that england is an english speaking turkey (haha), of course not.
    OK, this helped, thanks. I see the point about Erdogan being able to inflict a lot of harm easier.

  10. #19270
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Otherwise, the UK isn't in the big leagues anymore.
    You're accidentally taking Dribbles seriously. I'm sure theres better use of your time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Brexit: it's the dumbest WWE plotline to ever escape into real-life that can't end soon enough because everyone hates how it started, how it's going and how its going to end.
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Trebuchets new meta.

  11. #19271
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    You're accidentally taking Dribbles seriously. I'm sure theres better use of your time.
    Not really today unfortunately. Long weekend. Office is closed ><
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  12. #19272
    As a Canadian, I'm loading popcorn into the microwave, ready to watch PM Boris Johnson rampage through the china shop.

  13. #19273
    Pandaren Monk CostinR's Avatar
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    So Theresa May, who gambled her parliamentary majority on an early election and failed miserably, I think we'll remember the fox hunting episode for many many years from now, has cried as she left office...well goodbye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Having watched PMQs on Youtube, the only routinely serious people in that room are the SNP.

    Labour and the Tories should drop the pretense, go full WWE, and start hitting each other with folded metal chairs. Because that's how serious they are.
    I'm sure WWE would offer more seriousness then these damned fools have. What's happening makes me wonder if an actual circus would.

    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    As a Canadian, I'm loading popcorn into the microwave, ready to watch PM Boris Johnson rampage through the china shop.
    Oh it's even better then that, the next PM after the next elections is likely to be this guy.

    Last edited by CostinR; 2019-05-24 at 01:03 PM.
    "The more the Republicans and Democrats play partisan politics with things as basic as confirming political appointees, passing budget deals and raising the debt ceiling the more dangerous the world becomes."

  14. #19274
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    On the big point and the leave. I was supporting Brexit originally, but I was damn not prepared that the UK were not actually ready to do anything there and were basically playing with fire asking their population whether they should exit the EU or not. I thought they were prepared, and I was thinking that this is good, because yes, there are tons of problems with the EU and I thought the UK on their own could do a better job than the EU did. But alas, like I said, they weren't actually doing this seriously. So even though I think that the EU has huge issues that are very hard to fix and that they are mostly not trying to fix, even though I think that the EU is mostly a dead-end and the UK (or any developed country really) would be better off alone, even with all that, I will say that the UK politicians were nuts to have a vote regarding the leave without being serious about it and without being prepared to do it. They did a terrible thing. So, in that sense, I agree with you, since the UK was just toying with the remain / leave, they should have just stayed in the EU.
    So, you think US states are better of alone and without the US?
    As your statement about the EU is about as stupid as my question.
    - Lars

  15. #19275
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    So, you think US states are better of alone and without the US?
    As your statement about the EU is about as stupid as my question.
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.

    No, me thinking that the UK would be better off outside of the EU does not mean that I think any particular state in the US would be better off outside of the US. The circumstances are different.

  16. #19276
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.

    No, me thinking that the UK would be better off outside of the EU does not mean that I think any particular state in the US would be better off outside of the US. The circumstances are different.
    The only difference is how long they have been together.
    Practically every nation in the EU is better of in it than out of it. Are there stupid things in the EU that needs reform? Ofcourse, there's tonnes. Were somethings Go-ho as hell? Yeah, just look at how bad the Euro rollout was (had it been good, Greece would never have gotten on it).

    But in a global world you need to be in a bloc bigger than the fucking tiny little insignificant UK is. More so if you want to dictate terms to said world.
    - Lars

  17. #19277
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.
    It would though.

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, me thinking that the UK would be better off outside of the EU does not mean that I think any particular state in the US would be better off outside of the US. The circumstances are different.
    How are they different?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  18. #19278
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    LOL. Totally. Let's join all countries together because it's going to be better that way. We are generalizing everything, right? So, this seems to be your logic.
    Because that's the logic of sanity. No EU nation alone is going to be able to make any kind of diplomatic deal that is of equal value for us as it will be for the US/China/India. In the near future add Brazil, Indonesia, or any nation that's over 100m people. Here I am only talking about the big 3 (UK, France, Germany.). Add to that the other european nations you can go further down the list of countries that will out compete it in a 1 v 1 method.

    Europe together though will compete and when it comes together has out played the US when it comes to trade deals with 3rd parties. It's put in clauses that gives them the top deals and if anyone else gets a better deal then the 3rd country has to match it with the EU.

    We live too much in a world where country sizes range from multi continent spanning or holding hundreds of millions to over a billion people. To those with tens of thousands to tens of millions. Those in the latter groups have been making blocks because simply put in a global world your voice matters and no one at the negotiating table is going to take those with few people. Little resorces seriously. No EU country has the people or the resources to be taken seriously alone.

  19. #19279
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Because that's the logic of sanity. No EU nation alone is going to be able to make any kind of diplomatic deal that is of equal value for us as it will be for the US/China/India.
    You are talking strictly about the positives of being a bigger power united, and ignoring the negatives. The negatives are these: the EU are slow and inept, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. That's the short version.

  20. #19280
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    You are talking strictly about the positives of being a bigger power united, and ignoring the negatives. The negatives are these: the EU are slow and inept, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. That's the short version.
    One could argue that so is the US, easily.
    - Lars

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