View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #19461
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I do think the argument that "Not until after the decision is actually implemented" makes for a pretty solid counter to the "How long before Democracies should be allowed to change their minds" argument, and I say that as someone who very much wants the nation (at least those parts of it that voted leave) to change it's mind.
    So if a country votes to "give everyone a piece of the moon made of cheese before doing anything else" or anything else that is impossible* it is stuck trying for all eternity?

    *e.g.: fulfill all the Brexit promises

  2. #19462
    "Hey guys, should we stay in the hotel room or go hop in the pool?"
    "Pool!!"
    "The hotel management would like to announce that the hotel septic tank has been accidentally emptied in to the pool"
    "Dangit, but we voted to hop in the pool so we have to implement the vote before we can change our minds"

  3. #19463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    "Hey guys, should we stay in the hotel room or go hop in the pool?"
    "Pool!!"
    "The hotel management would like to announce that the hotel septic tank has been accidentally emptied in to the pool"
    "Dangit, but we voted to hop in the pool so we have to implement the vote before we can change our minds"
    Don't forget the guys that are getting dragged into the pool against their will.

  4. #19464
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    "Hey guys, should we stay in the hotel room or go hop in the pool?"
    "Pool!!"
    "The hotel management would like to announce that the hotel septic tank has been accidentally emptied in to the pool"
    "Dangit, but we voted to hop in the pool so we have to implement the vote before we can change our minds"
    I've always struggled to explain Brexit in terms that weren't horrific self mutilation, like:

    Hey everyone I think it would be cool.if we chopped of our arms!

    That seems pretty dumb. Why?

    Because we are going to replace it with a super cool robot arm!

    Ok you had me at super cool robot arm.

    *Time passes*

    Alright so today is the day we chop of our arms, you guys psyched?

    Damn right! Let's have a look at these cyborg arms then!

    Errrrrr well, you know how I said "super cool robot arm"?

    .....aha

    Well I lied, they don't actually make those.

    Oh, well that's disappointing but hey! We didn't chop of our arms. Boy would that have been embarrassing!

    WE.ARE.CUTTING.OFF.OUR.ARMS!

    You what!?

    You heard me. We said we would cut of our arms and anything less than that is a betrayal!

    But this is fucking dumb, why the hell should we do this when we can't achieve what we hoped we could?

    Because no arm is better than a real arm, and even if it is then it won't be much worse than having an arm.

    You've lost it man!

    No. THIS IS DEMOCRACY!

  5. #19465
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    Sure. I agree. The problem in this case is that the democratic legitimacy of the referendum itself has always been questionable.

    For me, it's quite straight forward: I disagree completely & utterly with anyone who says that the referendum result is a mandate for a Hard Brexit, and it's something I'm prepared to fight against. An incremental Brexit / May's Brexit? I would have gone along with. But a hard Brexit? Nah.
    Absolutely, but if we fail to negotiate anything other than a hard brexit through our own incompetence, that should still be delivered, then if(when) it turns into a shitfest we look to fix the issue and learn from the whole experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    So if a country votes to "give everyone a piece of the moon made of cheese before doing anything else" or anything else that is impossible* it is stuck trying for all eternity?

    *e.g.: fulfill all the Brexit promises
    Yes it would be impossible to fulfill every Brexit promise I'm sure, which is why leave campaign leaders distanced themselves from them asap; but the actual ballot "Leave" isn't impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Is there a limit to the amount of self inflicted damage that needs to happen before we can get past the "we must implement the advisory decision" stage?
    See above, I guess I'm saying "no, there isn't, we've given ourselves the rope now lets go hang ourselves". Maybe I'm just in a weird mood.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  6. #19466
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    There are more significant problems with the UK's democratic process than whether or not the result of a non-binding referendum - that should never have taken place in the form that it did; that featured campaigns dominated by lies, populist dog-whistling & foreign intervention; where the winning side received a minority of the total electoral votes possibly cast - is respected.
    You could apply any of that reasoning to any recent democratic general election.

    For a liberal, you have very illiberal instincts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    So if a country votes to "give everyone a piece of the moon made of cheese before doing anything else" or anything else that is impossible* it is stuck trying for all eternity?
    The vote needs to be implemented. It is not impossible to implement Brexit.

    After that point there will likely be a political campaign to reverse the decision which may or may not be successful. That will be entirely valid democratically speaking.

  7. #19467
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Errrrrr well, you know how I said "super cool robot arm"?
    advanced robotics which include specific agility solutions for the new arm

  8. #19468
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    [snip lengthy and tedious self-mutilation metaphor]

    WE.ARE.CUTTING.OFF.OUR.ARMS!

    You've lost it man!

    No. THIS IS DEMOCRACY!
    That was my attitude towards the Blair government and the coalition government you people seemed to be fans of. The coalition in particular almost literally left stab wounds on the economy.

    I don't recall any one who despised those governments calling for those elections to be re-run, and I see no reasons to humour Guardian readers who have been worked into a lather over Brexit to be humoured for expressing the same sentiment. If you'd cared at all about the damage Clegg and Blair had done to society then Brexit would likely have never happened in the first place.

  9. #19469
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    You could apply any of that reasoning to any recent democratic general election.
    Yep, exactly, therefore democratic process needs to be completely overhauled, including moving to a form of genuine PR and levelling Daily Mail HQ to the ground. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    For a liberal, you have very illiberal instincts.
    A dislike of populist right wing politicians and disgust with the result of a deeply flawed referendum makes me illiberal?

    There's no agreement to be had with you, is there.

    Absolutely fine, though, dude. Carry on... carry on.

  10. #19470
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post



    A dislike of populist right wing politicians and disgust with the result of a deeply flawed referendum makes me illiberal?

    .
    Wanting to overturn a democratic mandate makes you illiberal.

  11. #19471
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    Wanting to overturn a democratic mandate makes you illiberal.
    So does stubbornly maintaining a position that has lost its mandate.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  12. #19472
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So does stubbornly maintaining a position that has lost its mandate.
    That's not how democracy works. We do not have a new general election every time the opinion polls change.

  13. #19473
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    That's not how democracy works. We do not have a new general election every time the opinion polls change.
    Not sure what a GE has to do with the result of what is really not much more than an "official opinion poll".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Btw, just in case anyone had any doubts about the direction this circus is taking:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8934601.html

    Brussels is moving to break up the team that negotiated Theresa May’s Brexit deal, in the most concrete sign yet that the EU has absolutely no intention of reopening talks on the treaty.
    I've said it before, I'll say it again, this story has its ending written. That the UK doesn't "get it" is not a mandatory stage at this point anymore. They will get it once our friendly border officers explain it to them.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  14. #19474
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    That was my attitude towards the Blair government and the coalition government you people seemed to be fans of. The coalition in particular almost literally left stab wounds on the economy.

    I don't recall any one who despised those governments calling for those elections to be re-run, and I see no reasons to humour Guardian readers who have been worked into a lather over Brexit to be humoured for expressing the same sentiment. If you'd cared at all about the damage Clegg and Blair had done to society then Brexit would likely have never happened in the first place.
    Hey congratz man! You finally managed to use the quote function.

  15. #19475
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    Wanting to overturn a democratic mandate makes you illiberal.
    a) No, I wrote that I would not accept a hard Brexit. If you claim that that the result of the referendum is a mandate for a hard Brexit, you are either deluded or being disingenuous.

    b) No matter how many times you repeat the fact that you believe the referendum to be democratically legitimate doesn’t make it more so.

  16. #19476
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    That's not how democracy works. We do not have a new general election every time the opinion polls change.
    Do tell, how do you think democracy works.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  17. #19477
    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    That's not how democracy works. We do not have a new general election every time the opinion polls change.
    No, you have one regularly every 4-5 years, to see if the opinion has changed, because it is accepted in most western democracies that the electorate can, and does, change its mind...

  18. #19478
    Quote Originally Posted by LeGin Tufnel View Post
    a) No, I wrote that I would not accept a hard Brexit. If you claim that that the result of the referendum is a mandate for a hard Brexit, you are either deluded or being disingenuous.

    b) No matter how many times you repeat the fact that you believe the referendum to be democratically legitimate doesn’t make it more so.
    Democratic means rule by the people. Of course it was democratically legitimate.

    You don't seem to understand what democratic means. The word is derived from the Greek "demos" meaning "of the people". It is nothing to do with legality or parliament or anything other than the will of the people. In any case the legal status of Brexit was already challenged and resolved by a vote in parliament.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler to Baby Sloths View Post
    No, you have one regularly every 4-5 years, to see if the opinion has changed, because it is accepted in most western democracies that the electorate can, and does, change its mind...
    The result has to be implemented before the decision can be reversed. We do not have another election before a government takes office.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do tell, how do you think democracy works.
    Democracy works by allowing everyone in the country who is an adult to vote and then checking the results.

    Democracy does not work by taking a statistical projection from a supposedly representative sample of 1000 people or less and extrapolating across the whole nation, which is what Slant was implying-government by opinion poll, a ridiculous concept.
    Last edited by tyoplapia; 2019-05-29 at 11:53 PM.

  19. #19479
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    Democracy works by allowing everyone in the country who is an adult to vote and then checking the results.

    Democracy does not work by taking a statistical projection from a supposedly representative sample of 1000 people or less and extrapolating across the whole nation, which is what Slant was implying-government by opinion poll, a ridiculous concept.
    Your reading comprehension sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before.

    A bunch of times actually.

  20. #19480
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyoplapia View Post
    Democracy does not work by taking a statistical projection from a supposedly representative sample of 1000 people or less and extrapolating across the whole nation, which is what Slant was implying-government by opinion poll, a ridiculous concept.
    Somebody doesn't understand statistics.
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