[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Floopa]

Just as a reminder for everyone, how did you vote again?

i voted leave, i would vote leave again.

[Pann]

i voted leave, i would vote leave again.

I am curious why you voted leave and would so again yet you feel the resulting outcome of the leave win is reason enough to emigrate to another country. So I can try to understand better where you're coming from I would be grateful if you could answer some questions for me.

Did you have plans to leave the UK prior to the referendum and the have now put them into action due to the referendum result or are your plans entirely motivated by the result?

What do you think will be so bad about Brexit that you need to leave the UK?

And seeing as you feel life will be better outside of the UK why would you vote leave again if asked to vote once more?

[dribbles]

Some more Project Fear factchecking comes to light following post Brexit Irish EU threats to ground UK aircraft.

1. "If they don’t, let’s just say for a second the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them."They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them."

2. "Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? "It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/99...withdrawal-CAA

Back to the UK punishment drawing board for the EU.

[Floopa]

I am curious why you voted leave and would so again yet you feel the resulting outcome of the leave win is reason enough to emigrate to another country. So I can try to understand better where you're coming from I would be grateful if you could answer some questions for me.

Did you have plans to leave the UK prior to the referendum and the have now put them into action due to the referendum result or are your plans entirely motivated by the result?

What do you think will be so bad about Brexit that you need to leave the UK?

And seeing as you feel life will be better outside of the UK why would you vote leave again if asked to vote once more?

because the leave vote is the *only* way to get rid of the Tory party. the tory party have destroyed this country, they are taking away our safety net, our nhs, our education. they govern through selfishness and corporate greed. it's why i voted for Corbyn in 2017 and would do so again every election until this horrid party are out on their asses.

i decided to leave towards august/september of last year, i decided to make plans that i could save up enough to live in another country, learn that country's language, and be sufficiently trained in the country's own qualifications to seek a job. of course i have 6 months to find a job due to eu legislation. i love this country, it's where i am born and it's all i've known. britain has one of the richest histories on the planet and it's a lovely, friendly place* (*seemingly now only if you're white british).

a no deal brexit is bad because it lets the Tory party achieve their end game: low tax, low wage economy. similar to china. sweat shops, lack of investment, zero worker's rights, zero environmental policies, zero public services. it lets them asset strip the country of all it's public services, and lower our standards of living to barely above minimum.

i would vote leave again because it is the only way to kill the nasty party.

[Pann]

Some more Project Fear factchecking comes to light following post Irish EU threats to ground UK aircraft.

1. "If they don’t, let’s just say for a second the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them."They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them."

2. "Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? "It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/99...withdrawal-CAA

Back to the UK punishment drawing board for the EU.

Uhm, I can only guess that IDS does not know what the Open Skies agreement consists of or the importance of aircraft, crew and maintenance certification and whilst the CAA provides much of the expertise in the EASA it is no position to start providing this certification. What is worrying that if does he believe that the UK closing its airspace would stop European flights to the US then it is unlikely that he is familiar with an atlas.

It's that or he is not being entirely honest. But it was in the Express and he probably thinks that their readers are stupid enough to believe it all.

[Mayhem]

Some more Project Fear factchecking comes to light following post Brexit Irish EU threats to ground UK aircraft.

1. "If they don’t, let’s just say for a second the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them."They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them."

2. "Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? "It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/99...withdrawal-CAA

Back to the UK punishment drawing board for the EU.

You see dribbs, all the routes aren't the Northern routes, so that is a big fat lie right there. And as always, be so kind, you know, because that's what you are, a very kind person, show us the routes from the UK without an Open Skies agreement.

[Pann]

because the leave vote is the *only* way to get rid of the Tory party. the tory party have destroyed this country, they are taking away our safety net, our nhs, our education. they govern through selfishness and corporate greed. it's why i voted for Corbyn in 2017 and would do so again every election until this horrid party are out on their asses.

i decided to leave towards august/september of last year, i decided to make plans that i could save up enough to live in another country, learn that country's language, and be sufficiently trained in the country's own qualifications to seek a job. of course i have 6 months to find a job due to eu legislation. i love this country, it's where i am born and it's all i've known. britain has one of the richest histories on the planet and it's a lovely, friendly place* (*seemingly now only if you're white british).

a no deal brexit is bad because it lets the Tory party achieve their end game: low tax, low wage economy. similar to china. sweat shops, lack of investment, zero worker's rights, zero environmental policies, zero public services. it lets them asset strip the country of all it's public services, and lower our standards of living to barely above minimum.

i would vote leave again because it is the only way to kill the nasty party.

I would respectfully suggest that the most effective way to get rid of the Tories is to vote for another party in a GE. There is no guarantee that Brexit will see the end of Tory power.

Your reasons seem to be wrapped up in a, I would like to say, Sixth Form understanding of politics and how the world works but it actually seems to be parody of Sixth Form politics.

To be honest I wish I'd never asked now but thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and I wish you well in your future endeavours in whatever country you decide to spend your future.

[dribbles]

Uhm, I can only guess that IDS does not know what the Open Skies agreement consists of or the importance of aircraft, crew and maintenance certification and whilst the CAA provides much of the expertise in the EASA it is no position to start providing this certification. What is worrying that if does he believe that the UK closing its airspace would stop European flights to the US then it is unlikely that he is familiar with an atlas.

It's that or he is not being entirely honest. But it was in the Express and he probably thinks that their readers are stupid enough to believe it all.

Well all of that becomes a bit irrelevant if the skies are closed, no point certifying something if its not allowed off the ground :P

You see dribbs, all the routes aren't the Northern routes, so that is a big fat lie right there. And as always, be so kind, you know, because that's what you are, a very kind person, show us the routes from the UK without an Open Skies agreement.

I see ships my friend from the mountains, I see ships. Who would control the shipping lanes?

Stand ready chaps, time to man the blockades, as the EU commands thy will be done

[Deleted]

Some more Project Fear factchecking comes to light following post Brexit Irish EU threats to ground UK aircraft.

1. "If they don’t, let’s just say for a second the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them."They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them."

2. "Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? "It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd."
[/URL]

Back to the UK punishment drawing board for the EU.

You know the reason the UK aviation is the third largest in the world? Because the passengers and airlines aren't mired in endless paperwork.

Watch how fast airlines relocate elsewhere.

You people really come across as fucking idiots who believe that magic racism will solve everything.

[Mayhem]

I see ships my friend from the mountains, I see ships. Who would control the shipping lanes?

Stand ready chaps, time to man the blockades, as the EU commands thy will be done

The shipping lanes? Well, you tell me, show us a map, you know your maps after all. So about the flying routes from the UK, found nothing yet or are you embarrassed about the topic?

[dribbles]

The shipping lanes? Well, you tell me, show us a map, you know your maps after all. So about the flying routes from the UK, found nothing yet or are you embarrassed about the topic?

Wait wait there is more, what about the EU photons that travel under the atlantic via internet cables laid on our territory? No free movement remember, not even for photons, it is getting worse and worse for the EU. And you want maps? maps my friend are a google away. I'd do it before you lose your internet if I were you.

[dribbles]

You realise your inane rambling go both ways right? That the UK would be completely cut off from the rest of the planet because there are NO routes that would not cross through EU countries, no cables, no shipping lines.

Good job the EU/Germany have invested heavily in their Navy isn't it! Oh wait....

[Mayhem]

Wait wait there is more, what about the EU photons that travel under the atlantic via internet cables laid on our territory? No free movement remember, not even for photons, it is getting worse and worse for the EU. And you want maps? maps my friend are a google away. I'd do it before you lose your internet if I were you.

I don't want to rob you of your moment, so as you've obviously researched this very deeply, you must have those maps at hand, right?

[Gibblewink]

Not to worry - we have a bigger nuclear arsenal in the EU than the UK so we'd win once the final escalation happened.

[Dhrizzle]

because the leave vote is the *only* way to get rid of the Tory party. the tory party have destroyed this country, they are taking away our safety net, our nhs, our education. they govern through selfishness and corporate greed. it's why i voted for Corbyn in 2017 and would do so again every election until this horrid party are out on their asses.

i decided to leave towards august/september of last year, i decided to make plans that i could save up enough to live in another country, learn that country's language, and be sufficiently trained in the country's own qualifications to seek a job. of course i have 6 months to find a job due to eu legislation. i love this country, it's where i am born and it's all i've known. britain has one of the richest histories on the planet and it's a lovely, friendly place* (*seemingly now only if you're white british).

a no deal brexit is bad because it lets the Tory party achieve their end game: low tax, low wage economy. similar to china. sweat shops, lack of investment, zero worker's rights, zero environmental policies, zero public services. it lets them asset strip the country of all it's public services, and lower our standards of living to barely above minimum.

i would vote leave again because it is the only way to kill the nasty party.

Do you not see the wild contradictions in your statement here? You claim voting Leave would get rid of the Tories, but it was the Tories (and the worst of the Tories at that) who you were supporting when you voted Leave, and you even admit that Brexit is exactly what you want.

You claim to agree with Corbyn, but ignore the fact that Corbyn, whilst a Euro-sceptic, supported Remain because Leaving would screw the people too hard.

Essentially you voted to fuck the poor and even with a clearer idea of what the results will be you're willing to fuck the poor again because you have a safety net. You fit right in with "nasty" people like Mogg and Johnson.

[alexw]

Some more Project Fear factchecking comes to light following post Brexit Irish EU threats to ground UK aircraft.

1. "If they don’t, let’s just say for a second the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them."They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them."

2. "Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? "It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/99...withdrawal-CAA

Back to the UK punishment drawing board for the EU.

I've been interested in this and so doing some reading. Its not actually a threat, its just what happens if the UK withdraws from the European Air Safety Agency (EASA), and there is no viable replacement put in place of it (which there won't be, not enough time).

What happens right now is that the safety profile of the UK's air fleet is overseen by the EASA, so things like aircraft airworthiness, medical checks on pilots, upholding the standards of maintenance crews, certify that pilots are trained and capable of flying, certify pilots licenses, etc.

Other nations long ago reviewed the procedures and standards of the EASA and certified them against their own, such that the if you meet EASA standards then you meet, US or Canadian, or etc, standards and are automatically allowed to fly and land in their territories.

So if the UK leaves the EASA then it needs to set up its own air safety agency that can do everything that the EASA does (and its not simple to do either since the EASA oversee's EVERYTHING relating to air safety from airplane spare parts to pilot training similators) in the time it has left before it leaves, and have all the other nations on the planet sign off on it against their own standards. That has to happen if UK based planes are to continue to fly, and it simply isn't doable in less than a couple of years.

Hence this isn't a threat by the EU to ground UK airplanes. Its nothing of the sort. Its the natural consequence of the UK jumping off a cliff without a parachute. Its decided to leave the EASA and not spent the time (years) necessary beforehand to create the structures necessary for its air fleet to continue to fly. So I'm not sure how this is the EU's fault. If a person (the UK) decides to leap out of a plane without using a parachute its hardly the fault of the people standing below. Its the fault of the person jumping.

[Deleted]

Nice propaganda there the border WILL be in Ireland, there is no other option.

Get ready for a blast from the past then.

- - - Updated - - -

There are more chances of Ireland becoming a Canadian province than rejoining the UK, so good luck with that.

There are more chances of us joining Russia then us joining the UK.
You can't really expect us joining the UK after they ramp-sacked the country for 600 years.

[Kallisto]

Do you not see the wild contradictions in your statement here? You claim voting Leave would get rid of the Tories, but it was the Tories (and the worst of the Tories at that) who you were supporting when you voted Leave, and you even admit that Brexit is exactly what you want.

You claim to agree with Corbyn, but ignore the fact that Corbyn, whilst a Euro-sceptic, supported Remain because Leaving would screw the people too hard.

Essentially you voted to fuck the poor and even with a clearer idea of what the results will be you're willing to fuck the poor again because you have a safety net. You fit right in with "nasty" people like Mogg and Johnson.

He fits perfectly with Johnson. Supports Brexit but runs away except taking responsibility for his choices.

Also doesn't realise staying in the EU might have hurt the Tories more with a splitting of their vote with UKIP.

[Kiri]

I've been interested in this and so doing some reading. Its not actually a threat, its just what happens if the UK withdraws from the European Air Safety Agency (EASA), and there is no viable replacement put in place of it (which there won't be, not enough time).

What happens right now is that the safety profile of the UK's air fleet is overseen by the EASA, so things like aircraft airworthiness, medical checks on pilots, upholding the standards of maintenance crews, certify that pilots are trained and capable of flying, certify pilots licenses, etc.

Other nations long ago reviewed the procedures and standards of the EASA and certified them against their own, such that the if you meet EASA standards then you meet, US or Canadian, or etc, standards and are automatically allowed to fly and land in their territories.

So if the UK leaves the EASA then it needs to set up its own air safety agency that can do everything that the EASA does (and its not simple to do either since the EASA oversee's EVERYTHING relating to air safety from airplane spare parts to pilot training similators) in the time it has left before it leaves, and have all the other nations on the planet sign off on it against their own standards. That has to happen if UK based planes are to continue to fly, and it simply isn't doable in less than a couple of years.

Hence this isn't a threat by the EU to ground UK airplanes. Its nothing of the sort. Its the natural consequence of the UK jumping off a cliff without a parachute. Its decided to leave the EASA and not spent the time (years) necessary beforehand to create the structures necessary for its air fleet to continue to fly. So I'm not sure how this is the EU's fault. If a person (the UK) decides to leap out of a plane without using a parachute its hardly the fault of the people standing below. Its the fault of the person jumping.

Don't try. The thread of logic employed by hardcore Brexiteers goes like this.

The UK is special. Everyone has to bend over backwards in order to make Brexit as seamless and profitable as possible for them. If they decide to not do that, and not doing so harms the UK, then that is a threat.

[dribbles]

I've been interested in this and so doing some reading. Its not actually a threat, its just what happens if the UK withdraws from the European Air Safety Agency (EASA), and there is no viable replacement put in place of it (which there won't be, not enough time).

What happens right now is that the safety profile of the UK's air fleet is overseen by the EASA, so things like aircraft airworthiness, medical checks on pilots, upholding the standards of maintenance crews, certify that pilots are trained and capable of flying, certify pilots licenses, etc.

Other nations long ago reviewed the procedures and standards of the EASA and certified them against their own, such that the if you meet EASA standards then you meet, US or Canadian, or etc, standards and are automatically allowed to fly and land in their territories.

So if the UK leaves the EASA then it needs to set up its own air safety agency that can do everything that the EASA does (and its not simple to do either since the EASA oversee's EVERYTHING relating to air safety from airplane spare parts to pilot training similators) in the time it has left before it leaves, and have all the other nations on the planet sign off on it against their own standards. That has to happen if UK based planes are to continue to fly, and it simply isn't doable in less than a couple of years.

Hence this isn't a threat by the EU to ground UK airplanes. Its nothing of the sort. Its the natural consequence of the UK jumping off a cliff without a parachute. Its decided to leave the EASA and not spent the time (years) necessary beforehand to create the structures necessary for its air fleet to continue to fly. So I'm not sure how this is the EU's fault. If a person (the UK) decides to leap out of a plane without using a parachute its hardly the fault of the people standing below. Its the fault of the person jumping.

That may all be so, however the problem for Ireland and the EU is this.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...ce-414646.html

You cannot expect the UK to protect Irish airspace and yet be banned from using that very same airspace commercially. That is why the EU must capitulate and make an agreement otherwise all it will take to concentrate EU/Irish minds is the sight of a Russian bomber flying over Dublin at will.