[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

Ideological, May and many in the UK in general, do not understand and ultimately oppose the ideals that form the foundations of the EU. They do not think there is anything to be lost by the EU violating these principles because they do not share those principles. So they cannot comprehend why Brussels and many if not all of the EU states are appalled by their insistence that these principles do not matter and can be sacrificed at will.

Beyond that, they are also incompetent and cannot fathom that you cannot really have free trade in goods but not in services at this point in time because they are completely linked.

And that should be the condition under which they can remain in the EU or reapply at a later stage. I don't even want money from them. I just want them to write on a public paper for everyone to see that they understand the core principles and then I want them to confirm that they understand how legislation works and that every member state, even they, is responsible for whatever legislation comes out of the EU at least in some democratic part.

People often talk about conditions for the UK, this would be my condition. And I guess it's more unlikely that this would happen anytime soon than the UK coughing up the budget contributions they promised.

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EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

EU apologists bother me

Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.

[NED funded]

And that should be the condition under which they can remain in the EU or reapply at a later stage. I don't even want money from them. I just want them to write on a public paper for everyone to see that they understand the core principles and then I want them to confirm that they understand how legislation works and that every member state, even they, is responsible for whatever legislation comes out of the EU at least in some democratic part.

People often talk about conditions for the UK, this would be my condition. And I guess it's more unlikely that this would happen anytime soon than the UK coughing up the budget contributions they promised.

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Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.

More informed than the german it seems....

Whatevee tho, go continue justifying how there was no other option despite other unions managing much better without throwing states into debt servitude all because certain countries cant have their banks face consequences.

[Deleted]

Uninformed Americans bother us. So, we're even? Goodbye.

Pipe down you german pansy. When your country reaches America's economy of 20 trillion and military defence budget of 717 billion then we can have a dicussion.

[Kallisto]

deadline is mid-November, but that's it. ~11 weeks sound much, but UK will have to move earlier.

We need to also add nothing in parliament can be started until after the conferences. Parliament is still in recess, comes back for a week and then goes away until mid october again. Essentially the UK has a month to decide if it wants to crash out, Norway or revoke Article 50.

[Gibblewink]

Part of the Greek issue was that Italian banks would fail if Greece was left to go bankrupt as they had bound stupid amounts of capital in their Greek buddies and vice versa. Italy could not handle structurally significant banks collapsing and you'd have a chain reaction. The euro zone could handle Greece (and Cyprus for that matter) biting the bullet but Italy was simply too big so at first they had to buy the banking sector time to get their shit sorted and protect themselves. Once the banks were (mostly) safe Greece could theoretically have been allowed to default, go to hell and get rebuilt but that wasn't really in any-ones interest except apparently Alexis Zipras'.

I'm told the US has a far more domestically focused economy so going Keynesian works better there.

As for the actual topic at hand:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...P=share_btn_tw

[Xarkan]

EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

EU apologists bother me

The US wasnt alone bailing out banks in 2008..

At some point the goal must be to make debtors pay instead of having the tax payers pay for others irresponsible borrowing, in this case Greece had to pay rather than random european tax payers

[NED funded]

The US wasnt alone bailing out banks in 2008..

At some point the goal must be to make debtors pay instead of having the tax payers pay for others irresponsible borrowing, in this case Greece had to pay rather than random european tax payers

For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.

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Btw nice union you have there if thats the case then lol.

[Slant]

For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.

Wow, that's pretty sophisticated victim blaming. But I don't expect anyone else from the country where the mess originated from. Like we'd take advice from a country that builds itself on corruption and fraud like that.

[Kiri]

EU nations couldve just bailed their banks internally and let investors burn or not. The idea that the money had to be extorted to greece is nonsense. The USA did it during the 08 crisis without incurring to massive austerity, quite the contrary we had boosting plans.

EU apologists bother me

Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.

[NED funded]

Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.

Have you seen debt to gdp of greece before austerity and now? If austerity was a solution to prevent massive debt it has been a total failure.

[Demolitia]

Neither austerity, nor expansive fiscal policy are end-all means to react to a crisis. Both are tools that governments can use, but which one is the better depends a lot on the crisis and the economy in question. The US did what it did in 08 successfully, but at the expense of incurring a massive debt, which will not be repaid for decades, if at all. That, by itself, could case another, bigger crisis to trigger somewhere down the road. However, for the time being it is fine with that amount of debt, due to its financial and political clout. Greece on the other hand could not do that. Not saying that the measures taken were perfct. Just saying that 'just do as the US did' is not something that is even feasible for many countries.

And the EU/Eurozone as a whole did not have a mandate or facility to deal with such bailouts and failing banks in a quick and orderly manner back then. It took until 2010 for the financial stability mechanism to be created, and more recently the single resolution board. The US could act much more quickly.
But as you said, what course of action is the best is anyone's guess.

[Slant]

Have you seen debt to gdp of greece before austerity and now? If austerity was a solution to prevent massive debt it has been a total failure.

I have seen this:



Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce. But believe the whingefest, please. What do we know. We're only the driving motor in Europe, economically.

Or this:



Where unit laber costs in Greece were extraordinarily high, now they're back in line and following the same rate of climb Germany does. Much healthier!

Or perhaps this:



Where debt is decreasing since the austerity measures. What a failure. Absolute failure. They wanted to reduce debt, they are reducing debt. That's the definition of failure, isn't it?





GDP rising again:



I mean I can keep on posting pictures, but you're hellbent on hating the EU and Germany. Go right ahead, it's not like we're not used to it from uninformed Americans pretending their method of defrauding stock investors is the preferred method of investment banking and that indebting yourself is the best way to reduce debt. It's not. It's the best way to speed up an economy, perhaps even force it out of a recession. But it doesn't work if you don't have the economy to actually back that up in the long run. Sure, a healthy debt is a good thing if you need it. But Greece's ratings were in the junk section. The junk section. They were one step away from being the European Venezuela. Btw, those guys are literally using wheelcarts to bring the cash for a loaf of bread these days. Before you talk smack about the EU, who are quite big enough to see you eye to eye, you would do well to lecture Venezuela instead.

Greece doesn't. And I hate people like you forcing me to point out that Greece has weaknesses. I'd like them to be economically strong. But they're not at the moment. And what we need are European solutions, not a carbon copy of the economy that crashes the world into global crisis after global crisis.

[NED funded]

I have seen this:



Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce. But believe the whingefest, please. What do we know. We're only the driving motor in Europe, economically.

Or this:



Where unit laber costs in Greece were extraordinarily high, now they're back in line and following the same rate of climb Germany does. Much healthier!

Or perhaps this:



Where debt is decreasing since the austerity measures. What a failure. Absolute failure. They wanted to reduce debt, they are reducing debt. That's the definition of failure, isn't it?





GDP rising again:



I mean I can keep on posting pictures, but you're hellbent on hating the EU and Germany. Go right ahead, it's not like we're not used to it from uninformed Americans pretending their method of defrauding stock investors is the preferred method of investment banking and that indebting yourself is the best way to reduce debt. It's not. It's the best way to speed up an economy, perhaps even force it out of a recession. But it doesn't work if you don't have the economy to actually back that up in the long run. Sure, a healthy debt is a good thing if you need it. But Greece's ratings were in the junk section. The junk section. They were one step away from being the European Venezuela. Btw, those guys are literally using wheelcarts to bring the cash for a loaf of bread these days. Before you talk smack about the EU, who are quite big enough to see you eye to eye, you would do well to lecture Venezuela instead.

Greece doesn't. And I hate people like you forcing me to point out that Greece has weaknesses. I'd like them to be economically strong. But they're not at the moment. And what we need are European solutions, not a carbon copy of the economy that crashes the world into global crisis after global crisis.

You do realize Germany has had stagnant wage growth that rival that of the US right? Not sure why ANYONE would take pride in that or think its a model to emulate. I specially love this part:

Yes, Greeks still earn more than Germans for the GDP they produce.

That is what happens when the economy grows for everyone my dude. I can only imagine what kind of sociopath celebrates wages going by that, unemployment reaching new sky high and almost breaking the entire nation for years and claim succes fora 2% gdp growth.

[Slant]

You do realize Germany has had stagnant wage growth that rival that of the US right? Not sure why ANYONE would take pride in that or think its a model to emulate. I specially love this part:

That is what happens when the economy grows for everyone my dude. I can only imagine what kind of sociopath celebrates wages going by that, unemployment reaching new sky high and almost breaking the entire nation for years and claim succes after a 2% gdp growth after having collapsed with austerity.

I'm not celebrating anything. I'm saying how come we sponsor their party when they get more money per gdp than we do? I should by all rights be the one that's pissed off. Not defending why I help people that get more money than I do.

You, as an American, simply do not have the insight nor the right to make these kinds of grand accusations. That post? Me asking you politely to shut up.

[Mayhem]

More informed than the german it seems....

Whatevee tho, go continue justifying how there was no other option despite other unions managing much better without throwing states into debt servitude all because certain countries cant have their banks face consequences.

I have yet to see you come up with an argument that can be in the most generous description of the word called informed.

[Xarkan]

For every bad debtor there is a bad lender. But if you want to plunder poor nations to cover for the latter be my guest.

You were the one who asked to plunder nations to cover the debt of one nation (by bailing out banks)

[Nigel Tufnel]

Yeah, but Slant - what's your broader point?

Tough love works? That's stating the obvious. And at what social cost to Greece? Or is that cost insignificant in respect to the health of the eurozone as a whole?

The eurosceptic in me would say that the rest of Europe is getting a bit fed up with Germany sitting on top of its budget surplus and preaching to the rest of us.

I hear you might get tax cuts this year? That's nice.

[Slant]

Yeah, but Slant - what's your broader point?

Tough love works? That's stating the obvious. And at what social cost to Greece? Or is that cost insignificant in respect to the health of the eurozone as a whole?

The eurosceptic in me would say that the rest of Europe is getting a bit fed up with Germany sitting on top of its budget surplus and preaching to the rest of us.

I hear you might get tax cuts this year? That's nice.

My broader point is that it's about time people stopped shitting on Germany for actually trying to contribute to the European project and keep a country out of the Venezuela zone of solvency, taking in refugees that nobody else wants (from a war Germany had nothing to do with for once) for backing tiny ass countries with their megalomaniac wishes despite them barely having more population than our largest cities...

Seriously, it's getting old. I'm going to stop justifying anything those guys throw at me from this point on forward. Y'all gonna call me arrogant bastard or something, but I'm done with it. I don't need to justify Germany doing the shit that we do. I pay for it with my tax money. And when in doubt, I pay for Germany actually having the big clout it has and throwing it around in the EU's interest, because ultimately, that is Germany's best interest. To have a strong and cooperative EU based in part on the principle of solidarity. If you don't like that, get the fuck out like Britain does. And if that means everyone's fucking off, that's fine by me too. Then we'll talk about just Germany's best interest. Which pretty much means Germany doesn't put money in a pot to protect those tiny ass countries from basically being bought out by either Russia or the US. Yes, the same tiny countries that keep dictating Germany to let Greece rot, like Finland tried to do.

Seriously, some people need to get their act together and think about the big picture. Greece, as dramatic as it was, is not the main issue here. We're faced with Russia in the East, openly grabbing parts of countries and nobody defying them. We're dealing with China in the far east doing some economic shenannigans that may or may not be damaging to us in the long run and the US abandoning everything the West stands for. We are alone. You can face it as tiny ass country with 5 million inhabitants and hope it passes you by because you're literally on the butt of the European continent, or you can try to work together and show that there is an alternative.

Finland knows how well the "head in the sand" strategy works. Cost them Karelia, that strategy. And they were lucky in that they basically forced Russia into a stalemate when by all rights they should've been steamrolled. Much Sisu...

[Nigel Tufnel]

My broader point is that it's about time people stopped shitting on Germany for actually trying to contribute to the European project and keep a country out of the Venezuela zone of solvency, taking in refugees that nobody else wants (from a war Germany had nothing to do with for once) for backing tiny ass countries with their megalomaniac wishes despite them barely having more population than our largest cities...

Seriously, it's getting old. I'm going to stop justifying anything those guys throw at me from this point on forward. Y'all gonna call me arrogant bastard or something, but I'm done with it. I don't need to justify Germany doing the shit that we do. I pay for it with my tax money. And when in doubt, I pay for Germany actually having the big clout it has and throwing it around in the EU's interest, because ultimately, that is Germany's best interest. To have a strong and cooperative EU based in part on the principle of solidarity. If you don't like that, get the fuck out like Britain does. And if that means everyone's fucking off, that's fine by me too. Then we'll talk about just Germany's best interest. Which pretty much means Germany doesn't put money in a pot to protect those tiny ass countries from basically being bought out by either Russia or the US. Yes, the same tiny countries that keep dictating Germany to let Greece rot, like Finland tried to do.

Seriously, some people need to get their act together and think about the big picture. Greece, as dramatic as it was, is not the main issue here. We're faced with Russia in the East, openly grabbing parts of countries and nobody defying them. We're dealing with China in the far east doing some economic shenannigans that may or may not be damaging to us in the long run and the US abandoning everything the West stands for. We are alone. You can face it as tiny ass country with 5 million inhabitants and hope it passes you by because you're literally on the butt of the European continent, or you can try to work together and show that there is an alternative.

Finland knows how well the "head in the sand" strategy works. Cost them Karelia, that strategy. And they were lucky in that they basically forced Russia into a stalemate when by all rights they should've been steamrolled. Much Sisu...

Hmms... I'm not convinced.

This "solidarity"...

I'm sorry - but I fail to see much "solidarity" with respect to the pain caused by austerity inflicted on Greece and the benefits enjoyed as a result of Germany's budget surplus.

Yes, yes, yes... Greece's spending was unsustainable. We know that. But they should never have been allowed to join the euro.

I think many of us can agree that a united front in terms of foreign policy would be beneficial e.g., Russia / China etc.

But for me, and it keeps coming back to this: without fiscal union the eurozone is shafted. And fiscal union is never going to happen.

Macron can waffle on about us all being "Europeans" as much he likes... it doesn't strike a chord with the EU public. How & when is this necessary fiscal union going to take place?

In the meantime, back to Brexit, the UK has made the unwise decision to remove ourselves from the debate.

At least until the second referendum...

[Slant]

Hmms... I'm not convinced.

This "solidarity"...

I'm sorry - but I fail to see much "solidarity" with respect to the pain caused by austerity inflicted on Greece and the benefits enjoyed as a result of Germany's budget surplus.

Yes, yes, yes... Greece's spending was unsustainable. We know that. But they should never have been allowed to join the euro.

I think many of us can agree that a united front in terms of foreign policy would be beneficial e.g., Russia / China etc.

But for me, and it keeps coming back to this: without fiscal union the eurozone is shafted. And fiscal union is never going to happen.

Macron can waffle on about us all being "Europeans" as much he likes... it doesn't strike a chord with the EU public. How & when is this necessary fiscal union going to take place?

In the meantime, back to Brexit, the UK has made the unwise decision to remove ourselves from the debate.

At least until the second referendum...

I kinda agree with the first part. I kinda disagree with the second part. The EU is a new "thing". Humanity hasn't tried something quite like this before. The rulebook isn't written. So we're making the rules as we go along. And as far as fiscal cooperation goes, we're not actually as far off it as you think. So the countries collect taxes, but then a bit of that gets paid into a pot. And from that pot, the EU pays a lot of stuff to the countries (or directly to projects in those countries).

Is it a fiscal union? Nah, not yet. Is it totally unlike a proto-fiscal thing? Not really, it's pretty close, albeit very crude and rudimentary. But "never" is such a strong and absolute term. I wouldn't subscribe to that.

May just rejected the idea of a second referendum yesterday once again. What makes you think there will be a second referendum?