[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Shadowmelded]

What's the political fantasy exactly? National sovereignty and self-determination?

Yeah, that'd be the one.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I have to disagree with your assessment of how leavers will react. I read many comments from leavers and the general consensus amongst them (although I accept that they are likely to be at more extreme end of the spectrum) is not that Brexit was flawed from the outset but instead it has been hijacked by remainers - Olly Robbins being one of the prime targets for their anger.

That pretty much sums up the Brexit crowd really. They are angry at the EU, because the Daily Mail has told them to be for 40 years. So if Brexit doesn't fix everything, they are still going to be angry at the EU because somehow it will be their fault. They won't take any resposibility for the mess of their own making, because why should they when none of the leaders of Leave bothered to?

They should be asking where Reese-Mogg has actually fucking been for the last two years. Because this over-bred self-serving stain on the crinkly hankie of history should have been front and centre organising, arguing and negotiating the Brexit that he was so damn certain we needed. Instead he stepped back and did absolutely nothing except complain that others were doing it wrong.

If there were any justice, he should be getting vilified by the entire country. People on both sides should be demanding that he be driven out of politics permanently. It's the equivalent of Churchill demanding we fight the Nazis, before buggering off to his country house for the course of the war, occasionally issuing statements about how badly we are doing it. While moving his assets to the US just in case. His cowardice sickens me, regardless of what I think of the position he's taken.

[Pann]

1 in 10 chance of no deal?

That's fantastic. I can stop worrying.

I'll hibernate until spring, crawl out of my cave in early April, and it'll all be over.

#bearshavegotitsussed

No, no Brexit, as in Brexit being called off, not no-deal.

[Teleros]

Somewhat related, found this amusing nugget:



Bit doubtful myself, but it'd be funny if true.

[Pann]

That pretty much sums up the Brexit crowd really. They are angry at the EU, because the Daily Mail has told them to be for 40 years. So if Brexit doesn't fix everything, they are still going to be angry at the EU because somehow it will be their fault. They won't take any resposibility for the mess of their own making, because why should they when none of the leaders of Leave bothered to?

They should be asking where Reese-Mogg has actually fucking been for the last two years. Because this over-bred self-serving stain on the crinkly hankie of history should have been front and centre organising, arguing and negotiating the Brexit that he was so damn certain we needed. Instead he stepped back and did absolutely nothing except complain that others were doing it wrong.

If there were any justice, he should be getting vilified by the entire country. People on both sides should be demanding that he be driven out of politics permanently. It's the equivalent of Churchill demanding we fight the Nazis, before buggering off to his country house for the course of the war, occasionally issuing statements about how badly we are doing it. While moving his assets to the US just in case. His cowardice sickens me, regardless of what I think of the position he's taken.

In fairness I would say that they are minority however they are a very vocal minority and I think that going forward, whatever happens, it is in no-one's interests to lump every leave voter in with them, especially at this point in time when the (slim) chances of a 2nd referendum are at their highest and it will be the reasonable middle ground that could sway it.

- - - Updated - - -

Somewhat related, found this amusing nugget:



Bit doubtful myself, but it'd be funny if true.

Sounds like an Order, Order wet dream.

[Nigel Tufnel]

No, no Brexit, as in Brexit being called off, not no-deal.

Damn, I'm going to have to steal a lot of honey to see me through to spring 2020.

Bother.

[Kallisto]

I genuinely think you're underestimating the chaos a no deal will create.

TBH I feel any no dealer (outside of Reese-Mogg and co) generally know how bad a no deal is. They don't seem to get there are over 700 treaties and thousands of sub treaties within those 700 that just frankly cease to be when leave happens.

That aircraft, ships that are travelling from the UK to Europe will literally be denied entry. Even if entry was allowed somehow those on lorries will not be able to leave the boats with British drivers.

They also don't get how the EU is obligated (no they're not being mean doing this) to put up a hard border between UK and EU immediately. That everything entering the EU from the UK (and vice versa) has to be checked. That every piece of paper has to be 100% correct. No grammatical or spelling errors, no mistake on even a street name and number.

Just in time delivery that a vast amount of our industry works on will cease, the borders will stop it. It's also no joke that the motorways to Dover will be blocked, the M20 is being turned into a lorry park and that's not even big enough. Food exports which farmers might rely on will stop as well because they're too perishable.

Speaking of food the UK simply put does not produce enough as is to feed ourselves. Which is why we actually have a rationing minister for just in case.

Then there is inport/export of live animals, this will need vets to make sure all animals travelling from UK to EU pass regulations, yeah there simply put isn't enough vets anywhere in europe for that. Or in Ireland where farms cross the damn border.

Then there's the whole importing of important medical equipment and medicines. It's no longer an understatement that no deal may kill someone since even the health minister has finally come out and said it.

[Nigel Tufnel]

TBH I feel any no dealer (outside of Reese-Mogg and co) generally know how bad a no deal is. They don't seem to get there are over 700 treaties and thousands of sub treaties within those 700 that just frankly cease to be when leave happens.

That aircraft, ships that are travelling from the UK to Europe will literally be denied entry. Even if entry was allowed somehow those on lorries will not be able to leave the boats with British drivers.

They also don't get how the EU is obligated (no they're not being mean doing this) to put up a hard border between UK and EU immediately. That everything entering the EU from the UK (and vice versa) has to be checked. That every piece of paper has to be 100% correct. No grammatical or spelling errors, no mistake on even a street name and number.

Just in time delivery that a vast amount of our industry works on will cease, the borders will stop it. It's also no joke that the motorways to Dover will be blocked, the M20 is being turned into a lorry park and that's not even big enough. Food exports which farmers might rely on will stop as well because they're too perishable.

Speaking of food the UK simply put does not produce enough as is to feed ourselves. Which is why we actually have a rationing minister for just in case.

Then there is inport/export of live animals, this will need vets to make sure all animals travelling from UK to EU pass regulations, yeah there simply put isn't enough vets anywhere in europe for that. Or in Ireland where farms cross the damn border.

Then there's the whole importing of important medical equipment and medicines. It's no longer an understatement that no deal may kill someone since even the health minister has finally come out and said it.

Short term collateral damage, Kallisto. Irrelevant in the scheme of things. Look to the long term.

/sarcasm

[Huehuecoyotl]

Short term collateral damage, Kallisto. Irrelevant in the scheme of things. Look to the long term.

/sarcasm

Reese-Mogg told us it will be better in 50 years. Probably. I can't think of any reason not to trust him

/evenmorefuckingsarcasm

[Pann]

Short term collateral damage, Kallisto. Irrelevant in the scheme of things. Look to the long term.

/sarcasm

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

[ati87]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

How sad is it that at this point you are still trying to deflect when every negative prediction is coming out true.

[Pann]

How sad is it that at this point you are still trying to deflect when every negative prediction is coming out true.

I am not trying to deflect anything. There are plenty of negative predictions that are proving to be true or looking as if they will become true however that list is not an accurate representation of the Brexit pitfalls. I realise that for many people, especially in this thread, that being accurate is less important than saying how shit Brexit is going to be however it didn't work before the referendum and will not work now.

[Slant]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

This argument pisses me off in some way. It's not that you intend for it to piss me off, so I'm not having a go at you but... this whole "exaggerating the downsides doesn't help" is really... making a huge assumption. It assumes that we're automatically lying and you cap your expectations at a certain limit. Anything beyond that must be wrong and therefor a lie.

Fact is, when shit goes bad and someone says it's bad, sometimes it's not an exaggeration but the actual description of shit going bad. Should we not warn? Should we not point out things for fear of somehow... ruffling a few feathers or making people scared? Should we know downplay everything because some people might now actually worry about their livelihoods?

Basically, this argument shifts the debate from fact to... being nice. Remain supporters don't have to "learn to be nice" just so you're not scared. Quite the opposite, perhaps you should find out why they're scared instead of automatically assuming they must be hyperboling.

[Pann]

This argument pisses me off in some way. It's not that you intend for it to piss me off, so I'm not having a go at you but... this whole "exaggerating the downsides doesn't help" is really... making a huge assumption. It assumes that we're automatically lying and you cap your expectations at a certain limit. Anything beyond that must be wrong and therefor a lie.

Fact is, when shit goes bad and someone says it's bad, sometimes it's not an exaggeration but the actual description of shit going bad. Should we not warn? Should we not point out things for fear of somehow... ruffling a few feathers or making people scared? Should we know downplay everything because some people might now actually worry about their livelihoods?

Basically, this argument shifts the debate from fact to... being nice. Remain supporters don't have to "learn to be nice" just so you're not scared. Quite the opposite, perhaps you should find out why they're scared instead of automatically assuming they must be hyperboling.

I am sorry that focussing on facts pisses you off although to be honest this comes as no surprise.

There are certain things in that list that are exaggerated and wrong and they will continue to exaggerated and wrong whatever happens. You know like your insulin bollocks?

[Mayhem]

It would be unfair to say that this list is inaccurate however the majority of points are, for want of a better word, exaggerated.

I would have hoped that remain supporters had learnt the lesson that exaggerating the downsides of leaving does not help but it appears not.

What exaggerations are you talking about?

[Slant]

I am sorry that focussing on facts pisses you off although to be honest this comes as no surprise.

There are certain things in that list that are exaggerated and wrong and they will continue to exaggerated and wrong whatever happens. You know like your insulin bollocks?

You are not focusing on facts if you claim these are exaggerations. That is the problem. You are downplaying it. But hey, you'll have a chance to find it out yourself. It's not like I'm making this shit up. This is all legal stuff. I get it, you don't want to read through laws, it's boring and dry... but if you wanted to, you could actually verify everything I said. Except, it's much easier to go "you're just exaggerating", isn't it.

I'll put you on the list of "I told you so IOUs", mate. We'll speak again April 1st.

[Mayhem]

I am not trying to deflect anything. There are plenty of negative predictions that are proving to be true or looking as if they will become true however that list is not an accurate representation of the Brexit pitfalls. I realise that for many people, especially in this thread, that being accurate is less important than saying how shit Brexit is going to be however it didn't work before the referendum and will not work now.

Go on and educate the people in this thread. A simple "this is not true" isn't all that convincing.

[Pann]

What exaggerations are you talking about?

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties.

The EU is not obligated to immediately to put up hard borders and it is simply impossible to do so in Ireland. Nor does everything entering the EU from the UK have to be checked.

JIT systems will be impacted but they will not cease. The M20 being part of operation stack is true. Food exports stopping because they are perishable is possible but questionable.

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not.

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets and the EU is building more Border Inspection Points to deal with potential problems.

There might be issues with importing medical equipment and medicines so this point is probably correct. However stating that the health minister came out said that no deal may kill people is an exaggeration as the truth is that refused to rule out that no deal Brexit might kill people. Which in reality means that he refused to answer certain questions.

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By all means point out the negatives of Brexit. Shout them from the roofs for all to hear! But don't make stuff up.

[Deleted]

That pretty much sums up the Brexit crowd really. They are angry at the EU, because the Daily Mail has told them to be for 40 years. So if Brexit doesn't fix everything, they are still going to be angry at the EU because somehow it will be their fault. They won't take any resposibility for the mess of their own making, because why should they when none of the leaders of Leave bothered to?

They should be asking where Reese-Mogg has actually fucking been for the last two years. Because this over-bred self-serving stain on the crinkly hankie of history should have been front and centre organising, arguing and negotiating the Brexit that he was so damn certain we needed. Instead he stepped back and did absolutely nothing except complain that others were doing it wrong.

If there were any justice, he should be getting vilified by the entire country. People on both sides should be demanding that he be driven out of politics permanently. It's the equivalent of Churchill demanding we fight the Nazis, before buggering off to his country house for the course of the war, occasionally issuing statements about how badly we are doing it. While moving his assets to the US just in case. His cowardice sickens me, regardless of what I think of the position he's taken.

I haven't added anything to this thread but thought I would address JRM. He has been chairing various investment groups and collective interests that in the past 18 months have almost exclusively done their business in EIRE, US and far east.
One of his closest associates from the somerset capital investment group was bragging about how this weeks chaos has made even more wealthy.
Unfortunately many leavers here in the UK see him as a saviour and can't grasp that he has a vested interest in the uncertainty (betting vs the pound) and thus has not and will not step up to the plate to "fix" the problem even if he could.

[Mayhem]

Shipping and aircraft are covered by international treaties.

The EU is not obligated to immediately to put up hard borders and it is simply impossible to do so in Ireland. Nor does everything entering the EU from the UK have to be checked.

JIT systems will be impacted but they will not cease. The M20 being part of operation stack is true. Food exports stopping because they are perishable is possible but questionable.

The UK not producing enough food to feed its population is true. The UK having a rationing minister is not.

Live animals do not need to be checked by vets and the EU is building more Border Inspection Points to deal with potential problems.

There might be issues with importing medical equipment and medicines so this point is probably correct. However stating that the health minister came out said that no deal may kill people is an exaggeration as the truth is that refused to rule out that no deal Brexit might kill people. Which in reality means that he refused to answer certain questions.

I'm a bit sceptical here as I've heard different stuff, so could you provide sources to the points you just brought up?