View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #9041
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Show the thread the path and address them yourself like the nominal remainer that you are.

    I pointed out the pattern of behaviour before. We could compile a list or something, but:
    -I'm not that petty.
    -I don't think there's any use to it.
    -Ultimately, it's an issue of perception: it seems that way. You don't take measures to be perceived as anything but, and that's fine with me.
    Ah, it makes sense now. It was almost four months ago. Let it go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Yeah I mean, I'm from the UK and I'd find it hard to stay in reality and not bash us, c'est la vie.
    It's nearly two and half years since the referendum surely the argument should have moved on from you guys are stupid?

  2. #9042
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It's nearly two and half years since the referendum surely the argument should have moved on from you guys are stupid?
    And its almost a thousand years since Hastings; doesn't make it not a fact. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  3. #9043
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    And its almost a thousand years since Hastings; doesn't make it not a fact. . .
    I guess it would depend on which side of the fence you sit whether that qualifies as a fact or not. However the fact remains (no pun intended) that leave won the referendum and rehashing old arguments will not change anything and to be honest labelling something or someone that you disagree with as stupid is a little... stupid.

    Anyway my point is not to stop criticism but more frustration that the argument rarely rises above the UK is stupid.
    Last edited by Pann; 2018-11-23 at 08:09 PM.

  4. #9044
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Anyway my point is not to stop criticism but more frustration that the argument rarely rises above the UK is stupid.
    And I've yet to hear an argument for leave that wasn't quite easily picked apart other than "I don't really like foreigners" because that's an opinion (to which they have every right) so kinda impossible to pick apart. So all we have left was "It's fucking stupid".

    I know someone who had a personal reason for wanting Brexit - he was unable or unprepared to compete with Europeans who did the same job as him better/cheaper/faster and so wanted to restrict their access to the British market. Not really the strongest argument but at least the most honest/solid I've heard.

    The sovereignty thing is a fucking joke. We only had a referrendum to give people more representation a few years previously and it was rejected. People overall didn't want control over their own government, so to pretend this was in some way going to give us more control is . . . stupid.

    That coupled with the complete festival of clowns since the result came out and we're where we are.

    So like I said, its kinda hard to discuss it without bashing us. Shooting yourself in the foot doesn't even come close.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2018-11-23 at 08:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  5. #9045
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Anyway my point is not to stop criticism but more frustration that the argument rarely rises above the UK is stupid.
    In the same environment that produced the earlier accusation of concern-trolling-appearances, I implied that some people are saying things that they should really not. I share your frustration, but venting about it is also useless noise.
    Face it, banter across borders is a prominent (though not exclusive) feature of European cultures. I prefer to report what I feel crosses the line of acceptability rather than engage it.

    If you sieve through the chaff, there's some interesting bits anyway.
    This conclusion that @Nymrohd had about retaining the rights of citizens was well worth the development. As were some exchanges about austerity.

    So, dunno... keep picking on low hanging fruit... or don't... it's your call.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2018-11-23 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #9046
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    And I've yet to hear an argument for leave that wasn't quite easily picked apart other than "I don't really like foreigners" because that's an opinion (to which they have every right) so kinda impossible to pick apart. So all we have left was "It's fucking stupid".

    I know someone who had a personal reason for wanting Brexit - he was unable or unprepared to compete with Europeans who did the same job as him better/cheaper/faster and so wanted to restrict their access to the British market. Not really the strongest argument but at least the most honest/solid I've heard.

    The sovereignty thing is a fucking joke. We only had a referrendum to give people more representation a few years previously and it was rejected. People overall didn't want control over their own government, so to pretend this was in some way going to give us more control is . . . stupid.

    That coupled with the complete festival of clowns since the result came out and we're where we are.

    So like I said, its kinda hard to discuss it without bashing us. Shooting yourself in the foot doesn't even come close.
    That's fair enough and although I think you are oversimplifying things to be honest I agree with the general premise of what you have written however how does this alter the current situation? It is quite obvious that remain voters think leaving is a stupid idea whilst leave voters think otherwise, simply repeating the same argument is not going to change that and if anything it appears that many have become even more entrenched in their views since the referendum.

    Ultimately this thread is about the negotiations so how does repeating that those who voted leave are stupid move the conversation on? And since the majority of UK posters are remain supporters it is pretty much a given that we agree that leaving is stupid.

    And as I have pointed out wishing people from the UK become victims of Irish terrorism or that they are made to suffer as a consequence of Brexit goes far beyond what is reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    In the same environment that produced the earlier accusation of concern-trolling-appearances, I implied that some people are saying things that they should really not. I share your frustration, but venting about it is also useless noise.
    Face it, banter across borders is a prominent (though not exclusive) feature of European cultures. I prefer to report what I feel crosses the line of acceptability rather than engage it.

    If you sieve through the chaff, there's some interesting bits anyway.
    This conclusion that @Nymrohd had about retaining the rights of citizens was well worth the development. As were some exchanges about austerity.

    So, dunno... keep picking on low hanging fruit... or don't... it's your call.
    You have clearly misunderstood what I said in our exchange four months ago. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with sticking up for Floopa and instead was pointing out the irony of your post when you posted saying Floopa started it. As at the time I had suggested that the EU and the UK needed to work together in order to find a solution to the Irish border problem to which I was told by multiple people that this was not the case since the UK had started it.

    Why is complaining about the poor quality in this thread useless noise? We are all participants and as such we should be able to raise our game.

    I have no problem with banter but it's been two years and it's really tedious still reading that Brexit vote was stupid - we know! - let's move on and have an actual discussion about what is happening now.

  7. #9047
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And as I have pointed out wishing people from the UK become victims of Irish terrorism or that they are made to suffer as a consequence of Brexit goes far beyond what is reasonable.
    Sure, but I'll alter it slightly - it's kinda hard to discuss the negotiations without bashing the UK. This move has made the EU weaker too, so snide pushbacks from any Europeans is hardly surprising or unwarranted.

    Yes "wishing" the terrorism is pointlessly over the line, but I'll be pretty surprised if zero bombs or a mass murder incident of a different nature (Truck O'Peace I guess) doesn't occur by the end of 2019, it's just their way of 'discussing' things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  8. #9048
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You have clearly misunderstood what I said in our exchange four months ago. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with sticking up for Floopa and instead was pointing out the irony of your post when you posted saying Floopa started it. As at the time I had suggested that the EU and the UK needed to work together in order to find a solution to the Irish border problem to which I was told by multiple people that this was not the case since the UK had started it.

    Why is complaining about the poor quality in this thread useless noise? We are all participants and as such we should be able to raise our game.

    I have no problem with banter but it's been two years and it's really tedious still reading that Brexit vote was stupid - we know! - let's move on and have an actual discussion about what is happening now.
    You are, still, not understanding why you should have taken it up with Floopa.
    I took you suggestion, explicitly as a given: the negotiation, which surely seeks a beneficial end for everyone.
    Nowhere do I mention "them starting it", rather that they were bringing the blame game in earnest to this thread. The betterment of the thread would be to address their non-point, rather than bitch about the response they were having.
    It's the same all over again: you have an opportunity to better this thread by addressing Dribbles. You are rejecting it, again, in favor of complaining about the responses others give. It is your request to address their points diligently or ignore it; while simultaneously not addressing them yourself, and not ignoring any misstep in the response. Lead by example, least you be perceived as concern trolling.

    It is noise because it is also not having an actual discussion about what is happening now.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2018-11-23 at 09:35 PM.

  9. #9049
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Sure, but I'll alter it slightly - it's kinda hard to discuss the negotiations without bashing the UK. This move has made the EU weaker too, so snide pushbacks from any Europeans is hardly surprising or unwarranted.

    Yes "wishing" the terrorism is pointlessly over the line, but I'll be pretty surprised if zero bombs or a mass murder incident of a different nature (Truck O'Peace I guess) doesn't occur by the end of 2019, it's just their way of 'discussing' things.
    Surely the snide pushbacks only serve to convince Brexit supporters they are right and as a result are really rather counter-productive? Also I would suggest that if people wish to make snide comments at Brexit supporters there are better places than here - such as Order-Order.

  10. #9050
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Yes "wishing" the terrorism is pointlessly over the line, but I'll be pretty surprised if zero bombs or a mass murder incident of a different nature (Truck O'Peace I guess) doesn't occur by the end of 2019, it's just their way of 'discussing' things.
    There's a thousand ways to express this possibility.
    In here it's taken several forms. Among them a well-poisoning blame game. I told-you-so predictions. And actual desires for it to happen.
    This forum knows not bounds.

  11. #9051
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    You are, still, not understanding why you should have taken it up with Floopa.
    I took you suggestion, explicitly as a given: the negotiation, which surely seeks a beneficial end for everyone.
    Nowhere do I mention "them starting it", rather that the betterment of the thread would be to address their non-point, rather than bitch about the response they were having.
    It's the same all over again: you have an opportunity to better this thread by addressing Dribbles. You are rejecting it, again, in favor of complaining about the responses others give. It is your request to address their points diligently or ignore it; while simultaneously not addressing them yourself, and not ignoring any misstep in the response. Lead by example, least you be perceived as concern trolling.

    It is noise because it is also not having an actual discussion about what is happening now.
    There was nothing for me to take up with Floopa, I read his/her post, thought it was nonsense and therefore I ignored it, as a result my posts had absolutely nothing to do with Floopa or anything Floopa posted. Anyway I am not going to rehash an argument from four months ago.

    Why would I address Dribbles? And how would addressing him and joining the cacophony of nonsense that follows each and every post he makes make this thread better? It appears you're back to he started it again and this is an complete waste of time.

  12. #9052
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Surely the snide pushbacks only serve to convince Brexit supporters they are right and as a result are really rather counter-productive? Also I would suggest that if people wish to make snide comments at Brexit supporters there are better places than here - such as Order-Order.
    If only politics worked as they tell you in high school...
    Reasoning.
    Convincing your opponents.
    :')

    This forum is an outlet for propaganda of every nature. It's, generally, not about seducing the other, but about rallying your brethren.
    Brexit is culturally driven by national sentiment. It's efficient for the average person to exploit that into its darkest corners of hatred for the other. And it is efficient for the politician to fuel that through fear: fear the consequences, fear your fellow Brit, fear the brexiteer.

    Should it be this way?. I don't think so.
    But (and this is just my short experience in this world) simply pointing it out doesn't break the cycle.

    Also, I dunno about you. But I would be angry at your political class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And how would addressing him and joining the cacophony of nonsense that follows each and every post he makes make this thread better? It appears you're back to he started it again and this is an complete waste of time.
    Oh, no. You really should not address that source of inanity. Not the poster, nor the follow up.
    But, if you're so keen on picking low hanging fruit, pick on the rotten bits and cut the possibility of a follow up.

    I wouldn't know where to start, so I simply move along. And not care about who started the fire. In fact, reading it back, I didn't even bother to explain it further and disengaged.
    But, and this is key, you consistently pick up on these developments, at the same point: the response by someone on the pro-eu camp. Your alliances were kinda questioned last page (suggesting you make the brexit case, though I would disagree that you do). I'm simply reflecting on why this happens.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2018-11-23 at 10:06 PM.

  13. #9053
    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    If only politics worked as they tell you in high school...
    Reasoning.
    Convincing your opponents.
    :')

    This forum is an outlet for propaganda of every nature. It's, generally, not about seducing the other, but about rallying your brethren.
    Brexit is culturally driven by national sentiment. It's efficient for the average person to exploit that into its darkest corners of hatred for the other. And it is efficient for the politician to fuel that through fear: fear the consequences, fear your fellow Brit, fear the brexiteer.

    Should it be this way?. I don't think so.
    But (and this is just my short experience in this world) simply pointing it out doesn't break the cycle.

    Also, I dunno about you. But I would be angry at your political class.
    Yeah, okay. I think you might have missed the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Oh, no. You really should not address that source of inanity. Not the poster, nor the follow up.
    But, if you're so keen on picking low hanging fruit, pick on the rotten bits and cut the possibility of a follow up.
    I really have no idea what you're saying here, I get the impression that it was meant to be something profound but something has been lost somewhere.

  14. #9054
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I get the impression
    Perception.
    Yeah... we've been over this.
    Have a nice evening =).

  15. #9055
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.

  16. #9056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It does? Really? I suggest you either link some evidence for your accusation or apologise!
    So you want me to link evidence of no response from you?

    I, uhm, I don't, how?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #9057
    The lack of will to point out the benefits of EU membership and maybe spin a narrative of hope and opportunity rather than fear and doom seems to have been the bane of the Remain campaign.

    I recall seeing an interview with - I think it was Blair's EU minister or something - where it was pointed out that UK politicians generally spoke warmly of the EU when they were outside the UK, but didn't dare to inside the the country for fear of offending the voters. He even mentioned having written an EU positive article only to have it instantly spiked by Campbell.

  18. #9058
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It's nearly two and half years since the referendum surely the argument should have moved on from you guys are stupid?
    It would... but the political leader you decided to implement keeps surprising us every day with her silliness. In other words, if you do something stupid, I'd be quite the arse for dangling it over your head 2 years later. But if you keep on doing stupid things, saying stupid things and basically acting like a fool... that's on you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    In the same environment that produced the earlier accusation of concern-trolling-appearances, I implied that some people are saying things that they should really not. I share your frustration, but venting about it is also useless noise.
    Face it, banter across borders is a prominent (though not exclusive) feature of European cultures. I prefer to report what I feel crosses the line of acceptability rather than engage it.
    I mean... the obvious elephant in the room... British going on and on about WW2. @Pann, let's make a deal, you make your guys stop dissing Germany for WW2, and we'll stop having a laugh at your expensive over this silliness. Deal?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    And as I have pointed out wishing people from the UK become victims of Irish terrorism or that they are made to suffer as a consequence of Brexit goes far beyond what is reasonable.

    I have no problem with banter but it's been two years and it's really tedious still reading that Brexit vote was stupid - we know! - let's move on and have an actual discussion about what is happening now.
    I've yet to read anyone wishing people from the UK becoming victims of Northern Irish terrorism. I personally hope Dribbles gets to live his personal dream, preferably in the gutter, where he belongs... but that's really just him on a personal level. As for everyone else? If you've not read the countless people from mainland Europe that have expressed sympathies, compassion and regret at this decision, you clearly haven't read carefully enough. We're about as ticked off about this thing as you are. Our problem, however, is that we can't do anything about it.

    Imagine a car driving towards a cliff at 30kph and us standing next to it yelling you to get the hell out and you're going "Yeah, I know it was a bad idea to drive into this direction, but really, what can you do?"

    Well, you could stop the car. Just as a thought. That's why we keep yelling at you. Just end it. No harm done. EU member states have all but explicitely said they'd bury this matter, all you have to do is revoke Art 50 and we'll forget about it. See, this is why making sure that people understand the silliness is actually important. You can still revert this. You have 4 months and change left to just... do it. Ignore anything that happened until then in the negotiations. You could turn this embarassment around and the worst we can say is "Oh yeah, those Brits... fucking attention whores got us again, well played."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    Neatly implying still that leave is really just a hysterical bunch of fearmongers. Yes, let's pretend you will be reacher by remaining. Suddenly we're talking about potentials and people asking "How much richer?" and you coming up with silly numbers that you make up on the spot.

    Unlike the current tactic, you know... spreading the truth about what is actually happening right the fuck now, nevermind in 4 months. Please, let's not discuss that, it's way too negative and depressing. Because that'll avert the problems.

    Jaguar's electric vehicles? Not being built in the UK. The Mini electric vehicles? Not built in the UK. Those are direct consequences of Brexit. How can you come into this thread and complain about nation bashing when you bash the Remainers with "project fear" propaganda? You're really no better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibblewink View Post
    The lack of will to point out the benefits of EU membership and maybe spin a narrative of hope and opportunity rather than fear and doom seems to have been the bane of the Remain campaign.

    I recall seeing an interview with - I think it was Blair's EU minister or something - where it was pointed out that UK politicians generally spoke warmly of the EU when they were outside the UK, but didn't dare to inside the the country for fear of offending the voters. He even mentioned having written an EU positive article only to have it instantly spiked by Campbell.
    And this pisses me off. @Pann this tiptoeing around your sensible emotions is bullshit. Oh no, the poor British soul can't bear it when faced with harsh realities. Let's pretend everything's fine and unicorns are farting rainbows that glitter. Hold your politicians accountable for lying to you. Otherwise you might have the harshest of wake up calls when the dream of "everything will be alright" crumbles.
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  19. #9059
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    Kinda difficult when every argument about Brexit inevitably devolves into an argument about immigration, which has nothing to do with the EU.

  20. #9060
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is anyone watching The Mash Report? I think Geoff Norcott (a leave supporter) has come up with a really good point regarding the remain campaign; he said that remain should drop the project fear rhetoric that we will all be poorer by leaving and concentrate on the message that we will richer for remaining. Such a simple but brilliant suggestion.
    As it pertains to this thread you'll be hard pressed to find posters thinking the remain campaign was well developed. And not just in the so called "project fear", but on their failure to capitalize on the key concessions that Cameron negotiated.
    This reeks of Trumpism, and their insistence to bring up Clinton at every opportunity they get. It's very transparent whataboutism.
    Last edited by mmoc003aca7d8e; 2018-11-24 at 08:31 AM.

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