[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Ah, ok so I got the gist of it correctly from the bits and pieces I saw on the livestream. Well, well, the May/Corbyn talks haven't been fruitful. It's only 6 days (until the summit, i.e. last date to ask the EU). They better start becoming constructive.

They haven't ended in a fist-fight yet, so we live yet in hope. Last time they were over before they really started. The noises coming from the cabinet office are that Theresa has said it is her deal (or a version of it) or no brexit to the cabinet. She may also have realized that even if she can blackmail the DUP and ERG into voting for the deal she still won't have enough votes.

By the 9th they'll probably have decided to put the choice between remaining and the may deal with temporary membership of the customs union until a free trade agreement has been agreed upon to the public, with a bipartisan three line whip to get it over the line.

[Northern Goblin]

The ERG got a hell of a bloodied nose tonight, despite their best efforts to filibuster and sink the biĺl.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The ERG got a hell of a bloodied nose tonight, despite their best efforts to filibuster and sink the biĺl.

Bill Cash's attempt at sabotage (requiring Scotland, NI and Wales to agree) wasn't even put to a vote. I'm assuming the Deputy Speaker decided the amendment was posted in bad faith, given how Stormont is currently suspended pending Sinn Fein, the DUP and UUP coming back to speaking terms with each other.

[Kallisto]

Bill Cash's attempt at sabotage (requiring Scotland, NI and Wales to agree) wasn't even put to a vote. I'm assuming the Deputy Speaker decided the amendment was posted in bad faith, given how Stormont is currently suspended pending Sinn Fein, the DUP and UUP coming back to speaking terms with each other.

It's all down to the DUP. They have what they want really right now with home rule and them holding the crown in westminster. Until the next general election there's going to be no change. UUP and Sinn Fein are willing to talk to each other. UUP also have been talking with SDLP to the point they're not going to run against each other if their agreement goes through in an effort to break DUP (and lesser extent Sinn Fein.)

[Slant]

They haven't ended in a fist-fight yet, so we live yet in hope. Last time they were over before they really started. The noises coming from the cabinet office are that Theresa has said it is her deal (or a version of it) or no brexit to the cabinet. She may also have realized that even if she can blackmail the DUP and ERG into voting for the deal she still won't have enough votes.

By the 9th they'll probably have decided to put the choice between remaining and the may deal with temporary membership of the customs union until a free trade agreement has been agreed upon to the public, with a bipartisan three line whip to get it over the line.

I doubt they'll ever call a referendum again.

In other news: Anyone remember when Dribs bragged about the UK economy growing while the EU is "crumbling" or whatever it is he said?

Yeah, the IMF disagrees...



One more and the UK will be out of the G7. Did we mention leaving the EU would lose the UK influence? Well, even I didn't anticipate the UK to take it this fucking literal...

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The ERG got a hell of a bloodied nose tonight, despite their best efforts to filibuster and sink the biĺl.

That one dude... he got a wig on, doesn't he? I swear, it must be a wig or the worst hairdo in history. And that's despite his silly attempt at wasting everyone's time with more of Dribs' drivel. I swear, everytime people like him talk, I want to go into the actual House of Commons and explain to them how the EU works. Drives me insane.

[Northern Goblin]

Bill Cash's attempt at sabotage (requiring Scotland, NI and Wales to agree) wasn't even put to a vote. I'm assuming the Deputy Speaker decided the amendment was posted in bad faith, given how Stormont is currently suspended pending Sinn Fein, the DUP and UUP coming back to speaking terms with each other.

A few others also weren't picked up, both the PV and 2R were also non starters.

Also Slant, you'll have to be a bit more precise than "that one dude"

[Slant]

A few others also weren't picked up, both the PV and 2R were also non starters.

Also Slant, you'll have to be a bit more precise than "that one dude"

Dude, I can't remember all those names.

But he was asked by the Deputy Speaker lady to hurry the fuck up and he said nope, not gonna.

[Northern Goblin]

Dude, I can't remember all those names.

But he was asked by the Deputy Speaker lady to hurry the fuck up and he said nope, not gonna.

Oh, Sir Bill Cash.

Yeah he knows how to ramble on.

[Dhrizzle]

The UK does have a clear plan for what they want to do with an extension. They plan to use it to negotiate another extension.

Rinse and repeat for a few decades until everyone forgets about Brexit.

[Kallisto]

After all of today it seemed that lost in the commotion that May lost at least 2 more ministers.

Then again May losing ministers at this point we just call Wednesday.

Also I guess this has to be asked but do we even have a government anymore? I mean legally we do but it seems like every day the commons is getting more against May with either resignations from the party or from a minister post that on the face of it Cooper and Letwin could be considered more of a PM than May by winning a vote in the commons.

[dippinsawse]

It's really scary seeing pro EU people talk about populism like it's a bad thing. How does that not alarm anyone that pro EU people openly say that a political movement aimed at helping the commoner instead of the disinterested elite class is wrong? The average person is afraid of the EU for a reason and the defense against that from the EU is to act like they are wrong to want their own governments and communities to serve them rather than the european elites. It's disturbing.

[Mormolyce]

It's really scary seeing pro EU people talk about populism like it's a bad thing. How does that not alarm anyone that pro EU people openly say that a political movement aimed at helping the commoner instead of the disinterested elite class is wrong?

I keep telling everyone to stop repeating that fucking misnomer.

"Populism" is now a catch-all term for right wing reactionary movements manipulated by billionaires. Fucking idiotic, there's nothing populist about them.

[dippinsawse]

Because that is not what populism is. Populism is about telling people what they want to hear, with no concern if it is actionable. It is an intentional binary that has no arguments beyond vilifying some "elite" which changes as the narrative demands.
If you think we are supposed to agree with a nebulous concept of a "moral majority" standing against the chimera of the depraved elites, then I have a bridge to sell you.

That isn't populism. That's someone saying they are populist while they lie about the issues to gain power. Obviously any ideology or political system can be used that way which is why you need to pay attention to what politicians say and what they do. Even then your argument is that people are too stupid to decide for themselves how they get to live their life because they might get grifted or support ideas that are not in their best interest which pretty much proves my point either way.

Populism itself is entirely valid. There are tons of examples throughout history in which the elites manipulate and use people they "rule" over for their own gain. This idea applies to almost every war in history and the ones going on today. The two world wars were designed by people wanting to use the bodies of "their people" to gain more power and money for themselves. Wanting a system that hands back self determination to the average person for things that primarily affect them is not a bad thing. Wanting to stop certain institutions and government mechanisms that are helping elites at the expense of the lower classes is not a bad thing. You just need better discussions on what those mechanisms are.

[Slant]

It's really scary seeing pro EU people talk about populism like it's a bad thing. How does that not alarm anyone that pro EU people openly say that a political movement aimed at helping the commoner instead of the disinterested elite class is wrong? The average person is afraid of the EU for a reason and the defense against that from the EU is to act like they are wrong to want their own governments and communities to serve them rather than the european elites. It's disturbing.

And basically the entire post you made is filled with deceit and lies. Populism is not about helping the common man, it's about how to manipulate the common man to further your own goals that have nothing to do with the common man. Populism is about how to gain power: Lie, deceit, present simplistic solutions to popular problems. "You hate taxes? Great, we'll eliminate all taxes!"

The EU is the one that's protecting the common man. A track record of consumer protection laws should be enough evidence of that. The British have had their own Government. They've never lost sovereignity. They aren't serving the European "elites". There is no "European Elites". There's just the EU institutions that are instructed BY THE UK to serve THE UK.

[dippinsawse]

I keep telling everyone to stop repeating that fucking misnomer.

"Populism" is now a catch-all term for right wing reactionary movements manipulated by billionaires. Fucking idiotic, there's nothing populist about them.

That isn't even true. People also call Bernie Sanders a populist and it was also argued against by hillary clinton types as a bad thing.

[Slant]

That isn't populism. That's someone saying they are populist while they lie about the issues to gain power. Obviously any ideology or political system can be used that way which is why you need to pay attention to what politicians say and what they do. Even then your argument is that people are too stupid to decide for themselves how they get to live their life because they might get grifted or support ideas that are not in their best interest which pretty much proves my point either way.

Populism itself is entirely valid. There are tons of examples throughout history in which the elites manipulate and use people they "rule" over for their own gain. This idea applies to almost every war in history and the ones going on today. The two world wars were designed by people wanting to use the bodies of "their people" to gain more power and money for themselves. Wanting a system that hands back self determination to the average person for things that primarily affect them is not a bad thing. Wanting to stop certain institutions and government mechanisms that are helping elites at the expense of the lower classes is not a bad thing. You just need better discussions on what those mechanisms are.

You have no point that can be proven. You're just plain wrong. You can't come in here, make up your own definitions and then go "but you're all using the wrong word".

[Slant]

I keep telling everyone to stop repeating that fucking misnomer.

"Populism" is now a catch-all term for right wing reactionary movements manipulated by billionaires. Fucking idiotic, there's nothing populist about them.

Nobody here suggested that? But UKIP and the other right wing reactionary movements are textbook cases of populism.

[dippinsawse]

And basically the entire post you made is filled with deceit and lies. Populism is not about helping the common man, it's about how to manipulate the common man to further your own goals that have nothing to do with the common man. Populism is about how to gain power: Lie, deceit, present simplistic solutions to popular problems. "You hate taxes? Great, we'll eliminate all taxes!"

The EU is the one that's protecting the common man. A track record of consumer protection laws should be enough evidence of that. The British have had their own Government. They've never lost sovereignity. They aren't serving the European "elites". There is no "European Elites". There's just the EU institutions that are instructed BY THE UK to serve THE UK.

I didn't lie about a single thing. That is literally what populism is. You can say that some people abuse it and that THEY lie to people to get them to support things that go against their own interests but eve that is a self fulfilling idea. If an elite is lying to people for his own gain at the expense of the people he serves and is lying to that proves the idea that the elites do that and that true populism has validity.

Hating taxes isn't an inherently bad thing. The US 100 years ago didn't even have taxes and it had massive growth and quality of life compared to the rest of the world. The government made its money by doing its job of protecting the US market with tariffs etc. Everything that taxes do can be achieved in other ways. To be clear, I'm not arguing against taxes as it also has some good things and can help people, but it isn't an inherently good thing. There are pros and cons and it can help or hurt people depending on their situation. Certain groups of people hate taxes for good reason as they are paying into a system that is not returning that same value back to them so naturally it is a negative for them. If taxes are helping the elites more than the common person in theory then that is a precise argument in favor of populism.

Sure, the EU helps some people and it also hurts others. You can't just say it is a be all and all greater good because it benefits some people. That isn't a complete thought. I could say that I am a good person for giving a homeless guy some money but then what if I'm also a serial animal abuser? You can't quantify benefits in that way. If the EU is helping some people while hurting others it is entirely fair for the people it is a net negative for to dislike it.

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You have no point that can be proven. You're just plain wrong. You can't come in here, make up your own definitions and then go "but you're all using the wrong word".

I didn't make up anything. Look up the definition of populism...

[Thrundi]

I didn't make up anything. Look up the definition of populism...

It has, by extension and for long now, been used to talk about people who deceit the people they're addressing. Appeal to the people, no matter what, just to gain power.
And it is clear that it's how it's used in this topic.

So your objection about "but pro EU say populism as if it's a bad thing, pro EU are clearly against the people" is moot, if not outright biased lies.

[Crispin]

I didn't lie about a single thing. That is literally what populism is. You can say that some people abuse it and that THEY lie to people to get them to support things that go against their own interests but eve that is a self fulfilling idea. If an elite is lying to people for his own gain at the expense of the people he serves and is lying to that proves the idea that the elites do that and that true populism has validity.

Hating taxes isn't an inherently bad thing. The US 100 years ago didn't even have taxes and it had massive growth and quality of life compared to the rest of the world. The government made its money by doing its job of protecting the US market with tariffs etc. Everything that taxes do can be achieved in other ways. To be clear, I'm not arguing against taxes as it also has some good things and can help people, but it isn't an inherently good thing. There are pros and cons and it can help or hurt people depending on their situation. Certain groups of people hate taxes for good reason as they are paying into a system that is not returning that same value back to them so naturally it is a negative for them. If taxes are helping the elites more than the common person in theory then that is a precise argument in favor of populism.

Sure, the EU helps some people and it also hurts others. You can't just say it is a be all and all greater good because it benefits some people. That isn't a complete thought. I could say that I am a good person for giving a homeless guy some money but then what if I'm also a serial animal abuser? You can't quantify benefits in that way. If the EU is helping some people while hurting others it is entirely fair for the people it is a net negative for to dislike it.

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I didn't make up anything. Look up the definition of populism...

You are completely dodging the intent behind populism. It's true that a populist pitch the "elite" against the common man, they do so because it'll win votes and get the in power, after which they can push whatever their agenda is.