[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

In my country, government was 10% below the opposition throughout the map (but we had FOUR elections this day) so the Prime Minister is throwing in the towel and having elections. But I guess no chance the Tories would do the same. I do wonder how a GE would go for now.

Let's hope a Greek election doesn't jeopardize the progress they're making. How's Greece doing, btw?

[Kallisto]

Holy Crap Anne Widdecombs reply to why people vote LD or Green is outright delusional.

[dribbles]

Holy Crap Anne Widdecombs reply to why people vote LD or Green is outright delusional.

Quite reasonable. Everyone who voted for the Brexit party voted for one reason. Most of the people who voted for the Greens probably voted to protect the oceans and ban plastic straws and hug trees or whatever...

It cannot be right that remainers count every vote for the Greens as a remain vote.

Our Ann spoke nothing but common sense.

[Elegiac]

It cannot be right that remainers count every vote for the Greens as a remain vote.

> Claims the EU Parliamentary elections are a "confirmatory vote"
> Green votes are not Remain votes despite the Green manifesto being explicitly Pro-Remain, in contrast to Labour

What a crock of shit, lol. Eurosceptics couldn't even manage to prevent a pro-EU supermajority - the future looks a little bit brighter.

[Kallisto]

lol ok the Tory guy in Southhampton made me laugh.

Laura: This is worst conservative run ever.

Tory guy (jokingly): Well what about 1800s!

[Dizzeeyooo]

Congratulations on Change UK's stellar performance, I'm sure you are glad you donated to them.

I absolutely am glad I donated to them, and would do so again if I could go back in time from today - funny how that works

In order for them to be successful, they needed the (at the time still relatively toxic) Lib Dems to be absorbed into them + more desertions by good Conservative/Labour MPs - when neither of those things happened, the result was always going to be what it was tonight. Change UK forcing the Lib Dems to actually wake up and fight again was worth any donation amount.

[Kronik85]

lol ok the Tory guy in Southhampton made me laugh.

Laura: This is worst conservative run ever.

Tory guy (jokingly): Well what about 1800s!

Daniel Hannan being so dry there that he may have just accidentally trashed every Conservative entrant in the leadership contest lol.

How he kept a straight face there whilst saying any of them were talented is a miracle.

[Zaydin]

Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections so can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?

[Elegiac]

Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?

The traditional center-left and center-right blocs lost, third parties - especially the Greens - made significant gains, so nobody is sure what the governing coalition will look like.

Despite projections it seems like the turnout for eurosceptic parties was pretty lackluster; the projection seems to be two thirds of the parliament being constituted by Pro-EU parties.

Sorry Dribs. XD

[Dizzeeyooo]

Okay, given I'm in the US I have no ideas how these went. I know there was a projection of anti-EU forces winning big in these elections can someone who isn't dribbles who IS following all this give me a quick summary of what happened here?

In the UK, or in Europe overall?

In Europe overall - no, not even close (more detail helpfully above ).

In the UK - Brexit party has underperformed vs where they were polling, remain parties overall have beaten leave parties by around 10% (44% for Cons/UKIP/Brexit vs 54.5% for Labour/Lib Dem/Green/ChangeUK/SNP/Plaid).

[Zaydin]

In the UK, or in Europe overall?

In Europe overall - no, not even close (more detail helpfully above ).

In the UK - Brexit party has underperformed vs where they were polling, remain parties overall have beaten leave parties by around 10% (44% for Cons/UKIP/Brexit vs 54.5% for Labour/Lib Dem/Green/ChangeUK/SNP/Plaid).

It was for Europe over all for the Europsceptics I saw being forecast to do well. So I'm guessing that hasn't happened then?

Guess loudmouthed reactionaries are just really good at making it look like their position is more popular than it actually is.

[mojojojo202]

I absolutely am glad I donated to them, and would do so again if I could go back in time from today - funny how that works

In order for them to be successful, they needed the (at the time still relatively toxic) Lib Dems to be absorbed into them + more desertions by good Conservative/Labour MPs - when neither of those things happened, the result was always going to be what it was tonight. Change UK forcing the Lib Dems to actually wake up and fight again was worth any donation amount.

Change UK will not exist in 2020.

Heidi Allen already suggesting they will join the LibDems.

They have no traction, they have no strategy and seem to haveno policies other than vague lines about going back to old days when people left politicians alone to get on with whatever shady shit they liked.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Change UK will not exist in 2020.

Heidi Allen already suggesting they will join the LibDems.

They have no traction, they have no strategy and seem to haveno policies other than vague lines about going back to old days when people left politicians alone to get on with whatever shady shit they liked.

If you are going to ignore everything in the quote, why do you bother quoting it in the first place?

[Masark]

It's a running gag in German politics, really. We're all for saving the environment, but don't touch our Autobahn. For some reason we're as adamant about that as US rednecks about their gun rights. Arguably, both are just as dangerous, you could say.

Except even with the lack of permanent speed limits, your traffic fatalities are lower than the USA's by population or mileage. Also lower than Canada's, though to a lesser extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

[Northern Goblin]

The traditional center-left and center-right blocs lost,

The Liberal Democrats send their regards.

[Elegiac]

The Liberal Democrats send their regards.

It's about time. Labour sold out under Blair and the UK needs a kick in the pants from the left.

No, not you Jezza. Get back under your bridge.

[ringpriest]

I wrote about this way, way long ago. This isn't about nukes. It's not about anything military specifically. It's about the entire menu of tools that this, or any country, has in order to influence global affairs. Military stuff is one tool (and an increasingly important one in the new era we're in). A well staffed, well funded, professional foreign service/diplomatic corps is another. An expansive and empowered trade office is a third. Foreign aid is a fourth. Countires have different names for these things.

My entire point of even bringing it up is to point out how illogical UK behavior is, beyond the obvious. Brexit would make a kind of sense (still a terrible kind of sense) if the UK pivoted to massive investment in all the things I listed above. You know... doubling the size of the military and foreign office. Quintupling foreign aid. Nailing two big bilateral trade deals by the end of 2019. If it was gonna leave, it has to go big.

Instead the opposite is likely to happen. The budget will get squeezed further, and the UK won't raise taxes. So out goes another 20,000 troops, 10 ships and 30 aircraft. Out goes another 500 diplomats. Out goes twenty consulates, which will be shuttered and some of the staff sent to embassies. These are variations of things the UK has done since 2008.

Like this is mindboggling. National suicide is quite right. Is it really their wish to be 60 million people with a NHS and a giant moat around them? Are they going to be the healthcared hermit nation? I mean, if so fine... that's their right... but the pretense that Brexiters offer that a Brexited UK will be a liberated, empowered UK is entirely ridiculous without levels of investment they're not even close to giving.

That's why staying in the EU has been the only decision that has ever made sense from the angle of foreign relations and UK global power. Besides the fact that being the US's man inside the EU made it invaluable to us, plainly, the UK wasn't and isn't ready to spend to offset what not having the EU entails, and EU is a something (a very good something) that is a lot better than a nothing.

The only word that comes to mind here is "pointless".

Oh, there's actually a point to Brexit, although it's not any of the ones that seem to commonly get talked about - it's money, and the hyperwealthy.

The global financial system - which is mostly (although not entirely) contiguous with the (very flawed but better than most alternatives) "Amerian Empire" has actually been cracking down lately on offshore financial havens (with the EU doing it's part as well) often via the unglamorous OECD; the process started years ago, when the more notorious Swiss banks were... persuaded that opening their books was in their own best interests. Ever since, tax-dodging high-finance has been keeping one step ahead, fleeing to Monaco and Panama and the Netherlands, then the Carribbean, and watching the slow relentless march of the regulators pacing down their trail - the only real stops left are Singapore, some European micro-states, and some of the low-population and less regulated US states.

But Wyoming and Gurnsey don't exactly have much pull in the grand scheme of things - they've just been too inconsequential for anyone to bother with until now; the acountants will catch up, followed by the bureaucrats and politicians and eventually the law. And what then? The billionaires and the corporations that are de facto non-national soverign wealth funds because of the amount of liquidity they're sitting on need to flee (or need their money and accounting to flee somewhere.

If only there was somewhere to go.. an island nation would be nice, but not a tiny one, oh no - it needs to be big enough to support a real, globally connected financial sector, but be independent enough not to be pushed around, and preferably have enough geopolitical heft that it can't be steamrolled by the EU, US, or OECD, and a military to back all that up, if need be (and have enough population to support all that) and as a bonus provide an acceptable place for the hyper-wealth individuals to reside, and the nascent megacorps to set up offices is desirable, too.

And look, here's Britain, and The City of London; why, it's perfect for all that - and it even has a UN Security Council veto and a nuclear deterrent! What more could a banker (to use the term a little broadly) to the hyperwealthy possibly want? There's just two problems with Britain - it's part of the EU (and thus vulnerable to all those relentless EU regulations and bureaucrats who want to collect taxes to pay for things like having a functioning civilization), and it has (had) a government that sometimes had impulses to act in its citizen's best interests.

Enter Brexit, a political movement whipped from fringe embers into a raging fire, that has: crippled the UK's government, deeply divided the nation, and is in the process of splitting the nation from the EU (and will incidentally likely destroy the United Kingdom as such leading to a fragmented 'former parts of the United Kingdom' that will only make the useful (to the hyper-wealthy) bits - the City, mostly, with England a distant second - even easier to hold captive), and leaving the public desperate and fragmented.

And that is the "point" of Brexit - a tax haven with nukes and a UN veto; now, there are certainly other interests working to make it happen - the alt-right (that hates the EU), the nascent facists and would-be 21st Century Nazis, and the Russians, but while they're all putting weight behind Brexit for their own reasons, the clear motive seems to be what I've outlined above. (And before you judge, please note I'm not suggesting that this is an good plan for the hyperwealthy, just that that the controlling impulses seem clear.)

[steristumpie]

The youtuber shitlord collective played their role brilliantly. Stayed out of the newly formed Brexit party. Disavowed any association with said Brexit party. Kept the media focused on their trolling, jokes and shitposts. Became the focus of the smear campaigns. UKIP took to the streets and shouted and screamed just as loud as the lefties did.

Meanwhile Farage quietly and unopposed in the realm of public opinion slid in and claimed an easy effortless victory. This was masterfully planned and executed. Bravo.

[Kronik85]

The youtuber shitlord collective played their role brilliantly. Stayed out of the newly formed Brexit party. Disavowed any association with said Brexit party. Kept the media focused on their trolling, jokes and shitposts. Became the focus of the smear campaigns. UKIP took to the streets and shouted and screamed just as loud as the lefties did.

Meanwhile Farage quietly and unopposed in the realm of public opinion slid in and claimed an easy effortless victory. This was masterfully planned and executed. Bravo.

Farage underperformed. He ate up UKIP but it's looking like he hasn't done aswell as expected amongst Conservative and Labour voters.

Don't get me wrong, the Brexit Party has done well but they haven't surprised anyone. They got 32% of the vote, we already knew that around a third of the country were Brexiteers so nothing has changed there. What has changed is that the vote share for parties trying to leave with a deal has collapsed, shifting the narrative to Revoke Vs WTO in a second referendum.

All in all it was a much better night for Remain than it was for Leave no matter how many headlines you read today about a Farage victory.

[Kronik85]

So it looks like Labour might have finally got the message.

McDonnell backing a public vote is huge.