[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

But they're connected. Like when you go from 68% of GDP as debt to 60% in 2 years, and post massive surplus, the politics needs to change regarding the continuation of austerity and focus on spending in public services.

Germany is ready for a financial renaissance that will have a positive effect throughout Europe, and here's us wanting to leave before we can benefit.

We're not actually being auster (is that the adjective?) these days. We're in normal spending mode. Our saving measures have concluded a long, long fucking time ago. See, we've started the whole austerity thing before 2008, we didn't react to a crisis, we were in crisis mode when the crisis came around. For other reasons, but it's one of the reasons why we came out of it pretty well. Aside, of course, from being fascists that live on the European slave labor force in... well, every other member state, according to our expert Dribbles' here.

As for spending... we'll spend when and where it's appropriate. I think, I hope that is the biggest takeaway from the recent financial disasters. Spending just for the sake of getting money into circulation is all dandy and fine, but in the long run you'd rather spend money sensibly than just... say, buy a quadrillion toilet rolls only to be able to say you pumped a lot of spare change into the economic system.

I'm not an economist, so I don't know jack shit about economy, but I think our current model of subsidizing vital industries is a wiser choice of spending than... whatever everyone thinks "spending" is. I don't like phrases like "you need to spend more" because people usually don't know what they mean by that.

As for renaissance... no idea what you're talking about. The only renaissance that I see possible is a EU wide fiscal system. First, of course, to support our fascist empire, but also to reduce tax avoidance and, most importantly to establish an equalising system where rich nations outright sponsor poor nations. Germany does it on a national basis and while the rich states grumble every year, nobody contests it, because it works and keeps everyone equally miserable.

[AeneasBK]

We're not actually being auster (is that the adjective?) these days

Only because you asked - it's austere with an extra "e" on the end; sorry, as you were

[Slant]

We still have some pull but it's vastly overstated by people who think Europe still owes us an eternal debt of gratitide 75 years on.

I actually think an appropriate amount of appreciation is justififed. I don't mind everyone but Germany throwing a big party once a year sometime in May. What I do mind is getting shat on by the British everytime I make the mistake of revealing my nationality. But that's fine. I'll just support anyone who's up to actually give the British a reason to bitch. Right Dribs? I mean, you little fascist fanboi wouldn't actually complain about the Fourth Reich, right?

[AeneasBK]

It's the same point of view that got us in this 995 page mess.

This comment is spot on - it doesn't help that it was the version of History we were taught 25 years or so ago when I was at school; and I can only assume the further back you go the more "patriotic" is has been (so anyone older than me is likely to have received even more biased versions of events).

[Slant]

Only because you asked - it's austere with an extra "e" on the end; sorry, as you were

Ah shit, I've seen that before... I should've known.

[Northern Goblin]

This comment is spot on - it doesn't help that it was the version of History we were taught 25 years or so ago when I was at school; and I can only assume the further back you go the more "patriotic" is has been (so anyone older than me is likely to have received even more biased versions of events).

Echoing this, Rule Britannia was pretty much the curriculum when it came to history till about the turn of the century.

Also slant, regarding the economy/spending and it benefitting the EU. It's mostly in reference to your import/export imbalance, there's a growing belief that Germany hoarding wealth when posting high surplus is toxic to the EU. Spending not only revives other countries within the Union but in turn generates more trade options for Germany.

Article's a year old but sums up the belief: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/germ...ctor-says.html

[Kallisto]

You're going to make me defend Dribbles here, but Agincourt.

Y'know, one of Europe's most historical military shocks?

100 years war was French vs French who could muster a few people from England and Wales. So can't really be claimed to be an English win

[Noradin]

Agincourt was pretty much straight up England vs France, and one of the times we didn't get punted back across the channel.

How would you get punted back across the channel to France when you start out in France?

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Also slant, regarding the economy/spending and it benefitting the EU. It's mostly in reference to your import/export imbalance, there's a growing belief that Germany hoarding wealth when posting high surplus is toxic to the EU. Spending not only revives other countries within the Union but in turn generates more trade options for Germany.

There is just one problem with this belief: Germany isn't "hoarding wealth".
It is doing the opposite, it generating it and selling it off.

Of course it is a popular fantasy to get that wealth for free and then sell it off in Germany's stead.

The reason it is "Germany" this fantasy is about is that "Germany" makes the most visible target and has the most easily exploitable (unrelated) handicaps in any discussion about it.

[Slant]

Echoing this, Rule Britannia was pretty much the curriculum when it came to history till about the turn of the century.

Also slant, regarding the economy/spending and it benefitting the EU. It's mostly in reference to your import/export imbalance, there's a growing belief that Germany hoarding wealth when posting high surplus is toxic to the EU. Spending not only revives other countries within the Union but in turn generates more trade options for Germany.

Article's a year old but sums up the belief: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/germ...ctor-says.html

Ok. I'm down with that. So, what freezer is Italy best known for? Which Greek car brand should I buy?

See, the problem isn't that we don't want to spend. It's that y'all don't sell us enough. If I have a choice of Volkswagen vs. Seat. Why should I pick Seat? Just to make you happy? It's the same car, essentially...

[Noradin]

I am going to contest "hoarding" as a poor way to construct the argument. Rather the argument is that the German economy could afford higher wages and disposable income and thus higher spending.

That is somewhat true, but true for many countries.
No need to pick on just one, other than that it is the most convenient target.

[Slant]

100 years war was French vs French who could muster a few people from England and Wales. So can't really be claimed to be an English win

I think technically, the war is counted as a draw, too.

[Slant]

I am going to contest "hoarding" as a poor way to construct the argument. Rather the argument is that the German economy could afford higher wages and disposable income and thus higher spending.

This is the most valid argument I've heard in context over the years. We've lost the edge when it comes to labor fights. I don't think anyone from my generation has ever seen a proper strike. Oh, we know local ones and maybe even (gasps) two days of public transport being interrupted... but that's about it.

My prof said about our biggest worker's union that they had enough cash put aside to be able to feed their members (service sector) with strike money for one and a half year.

Get that into your head... if we wanted to, we could actually go into a general strike, nationwide, for one and a half years. Countries don't survive that long without a functioning economy. And yet, here we are. Jack shit happening.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Did you miss the overwhelming mandate his party received when he won the EU elections just a few days ago?

He received a mandate to represent his party in the European Parliament. He did not get a mandate to represent the country in trade talks - that is the gift of the Prime Minister and the Permanent Secretary to the Cabinet (as head of the Civil Service).

In America, is it illegal to represent the government as a private citizen (right now, Trump's mate Manafort is in prison for doing so). I would imagine there is a similar law in the UK.

[dribbles]

He received a mandate to represent his party in the European Parliament. He did not get a mandate to represent the country in trade talks - that is the gift of the Prime Minister and the Permanent Secretary to the Cabinet (as head of the Civil Service).

In America, is it illegal to represent the government as a private citizen (right now, Trump's mate Manafort is in prison for doing so). I would imagine there is a similar law in the UK.

That mandate was to stick two fingers up at the EU. He is ahead of the curve and doing it a little early, that's all...

Anyhow I'm off to the VW dealer, Mrs wants to change her car and she won't go anywhere else. Must be the Dutch bit of her, infected with EU blood.

Do you see what they have done to this once proud island? Jesus... On the anniversary of D-day as well, the Mrs buying another one of Hitlers finest

[Noradin]

What I understand (and do correct me if I am wrong, this is a very interesting issue for the entirey of Europe) is that when it was time for unification there was a nearly unanimous decision to depress wages and maintain austerity to better be able to withstand the costs of unification.
What I fear happened after (and this is conjecture) is that there was a new social construct about how accepting wage austerity is patriotic and good. Considering that the guiding economic principle of Germany has long been ordoliberalism, moral valuations attached to economic principles are likely to resonate strongly with the people. Thus society came to accept that not fighting for better wages was for the good of the country.
I am not convinced that this is still true. The surplus is there. While I am certainly not advocating for runaway wage growth (which would be catastrophic with one currency forcing very harsh debates in the ECB on how to handle the resulting inflation without damaging everyone else), Germany CAN afford better wage growth.

Yes, it probably can, unfortunately, most often this argument is used as a pretext to place blame, which is then used to try and blackmail for something else.

[Slant]

What I understand (and do correct me if I am wrong, this is a very interesting issue for the entirey of Europe) is that when it was time for unification there was a nearly unanimous decision to depress wages and maintain austerity to better be able to withstand the costs of unification.
What I fear happened after (and this is conjecture) is that there was a new social construct about how accepting wage austerity is patriotic and good. Considering that the guiding economic principle of Germany has long been ordoliberalism, moral valuations attached to economic principles are likely to resonate strongly with the people. Thus society came to accept that not fighting for better wages was for the good of the country.
I am not convinced that this is still true. The surplus is there. While I am certainly not advocating for runaway wage growth (which would be catastrophic with one currency forcing very harsh debates in the ECB on how to handle the resulting inflation without damaging everyone else), Germany CAN afford better wage growth.

Unification wasn't the reason for austerity. We got a specific tax set aside for that very purpose, it's called the solidarity tax and money from that is flowing eastwards into infrastructure. Yes, present tense, because we're still paying for that. So that's not the reason.

Austerity was begun by our leftist Government back in the early 2000s and then continued with Merkel until early 2010s or so. We've never officially talked about it, but as far as I can tell, austerity isn't happening anymore. We're in normal spending mode. The only reason we got these surplusses is that we had a proper economic boom now that the east is catching up and our crazy finance minister was an economic genius for once.

Of course, there were sectors that suffered. Our military is really not happy, but they're getting more funds now. We're slowly ramping shit up, but Germany doesn't play fast and loose with tax money like some would hope.

There has never been any "patriotism" in accepting low wages. Our unions are really more responsible for this than anyone else. And the current mentality is that we'd rather have a badly paid job than no job at all. What you're describing is not true. It's really stark naked fear of unemployment that keeps people in line. The Government has next to nothing to do with it. The last time we heard a Chancellor talk about saving money and how everyone had to pitch in was over a decade ago.

Corporations and companies are also reluctant to invest into labor cost thanks to Brexit and other international economic problems... add it all together and you have a situation in which one side isn't willing to increase wages while the other side isn't willing to risk their job over wages.

TL;DR: We're not suffering enough, that's why wages are low (while still high in comparison to other countries).

[Flarelaine]

Because it's the exact opposite of the truth? I know truth is an entirely alien concept for you, but all the polls show that Remain is getting more popular as time goes by. Partly due to the old rascists that voted leave in 2016 dying off. Even in a fairly single issue low turnout poll like the EU elections, you still only managed to get a third of the vote for your "Brexit at any cost" party.

You're fucked dribbles. Your Brexit is going to die. It doesn't matter how the Brexit party polls before the crazy leaks into their manifesto. It doesn't matter which moron wins the votes of 120k old Tory members, because the math of Parliament doesn't change. You could have had a Brexit, but you didn't want to compromise. You wanted to win it all. Well now you are going to lose it all instead. Just a matter of time now.

Easy there. I understand what you are saying but stating how things will be with such certainty and condescension is kinda turning you into a mirror Dribbles.

[Flarelaine]

Still germans are always on the bad side is true, name a german hero

Sophie Scholl.

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Well that's a wonderful display of ignorance above.

Ignorance, on its own, can be helped.

Wilful and weaponised ignorance? Snowball's chance in hell.

[Slant]

That kind of sounds irrational. German unemployment rates are very low.

Now you know why. Is it upsetting you that Germans can be irrational?

[Slant]

It is upsetting to me when people are irrational and because of that act against their own interest. Germans are just people, I don't believe in any form of exceptionalism.

Well then... "against our own interests" is a subjective thing, really. We've acquired a deep and very strong distate for social benefits and all the stigma associated with it. Better to work a badly paid job than... leech of the state. And yes, that's the common phrase when talking about these issues.