[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[LeGin Tufnel]

He's offered a legal opinion on a case which a High Court Judge agrees with. I fail to see how his political leanings are in anyway relevant...

...unless... the judge is also one of them right wingers as well!

Perhaps you could offer an equally expert opinion as to why he is not correct instead of trying to attack his character?

Anyway if you don't want to read things because you disagree with the political opinions of the author that's entirely down to you.

Ehrm... I did read it.

The fact that the case has inevitably failed is not a cause for celebration unless you are in favour of retaining the status quo: our politics dominated by cult of personality allowing charismatic but ultimately flawed politicians blatantly and abhorrently dogwhistling via the rabid right wing press.

Yep, sure, I didn't expect for one moment this case would get anywhere. Neither will attempts by mature and sane politicians to come to some sort of compromise re. Brexit. Neither will calls for proportional representation.

The UK will shortly be swimming in a cesspit of its own shit because of the lies of BJ and others. But do carry on defending their right to lie, it's so much more important isn't it.

[Dizzeeyooo]

It is possible that the political campaign statements of a Member of Parliament may be given weight because of their source. A listener might conceivably say, 'Because this man is an MP, I trust what he is saying about immigration statistics/climate change/literacy measures.' Whether that is true to any extent of the Claimant is doubtful, given his public profile.

God bless that argument - Johnson is known to be a serial liar, so no-one is likely to believe what he says is accurate, so he cannot be found guilty of intending to deceive people by lying in public during the referendum campaign, because no-one would believe him anyway.

[Slant]

He didn't email you, specifically, he's not your mate just sending you a casual email. It's an update/newsletter type thing that goes to everyone that signed up for it lol

Well, people that can barely decipher the headlines of the SUN would actually think like he does. You know the type, the European white trash.

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Looks like the Ford executives were not joking, when they said, that if brexit hurts or threatens their profits they would close UK Plants.
The Bridgend Plant is to close in 2020. It employs 1,700.

If a company has to spell it out like that, it's being super friendly like. Of course they'll close a plant as soon as they see a red number connected to the UK. I wouldn't be surprised if Investors and economists aren't about to brand the UK as scorched Earth, do not touch until a few decades have passed.

The ironic bit is... dumbass Brexiteers keep talking about the dominoe effect killing the EU bit by bit, while the reality is that... if you keep this momentum up, the dominoe effect will actually be companies leaving one after another. I mean, if your parts supplier closes his plant, you can keep importing his stuff at a higher cost, or you can just move your plant elsewhere in the EU, without facing the hassle at all. At the profit of being right within the vastly bigger market.

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Almost certainly 3rd gen british citizens but for argument sake any citizen of the commonwealth when in the UK can vote in UK elections.

So... but when the EU does this "you live here, you vote here", Dribs throws a hissy fit? How cute.

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God bless that argument - Johnson is known to be a serial liar, so no-one is likely to believe what he says is accurate, so he cannot be found guilty of intending to deceive people by lying in public during the referendum campaign, because no-one would believe him anyway.

Well, I'm torn about this topic. You can't just go around arresting politicians for making promises they can't keep. Mostly, because even the most honest politician will only state what he intends to do. If that's what actually comes out the other end is not entirely up to his powers, given political realities.

However, this isn't criminally interesting because he lied. Everyone lies. The court should really have asked to hold a trial over actual fraud. They didn't just lie. They lied to swindle themselves into profit. But, alas, swindeling an entire nation is apparently so big, nobody seems to think that's even a valid case.

Fuck yes, it is. He promised to do something he can't do. Objectively never was able to do. He used that lie to convince A NATION to commit to an action that would let him and his cronies personally profit from investment speculation betting on the demise of the British economy.

How is this not a clear cut case? Because it's too fucking big. I hope at some point someone has the guts to just call it what it is and bring this to court for the actual crime. And then we can start talking about treason. Selling your country out is the textbook definition of treason.

[Pann]

The UK will shortly be swimming in a cesspit of its own shit because of the lies of BJ and others. But do carry on defending their right to lie, it's so much more important isn't it.

I linked a story related to Brexit and that I thought people might find interesting nothing more. I have not offered an opinion one way or the other let alone defended anyone's right to lie so I am not sure why you're falsely claiming that I am continuing to do so.

[Noradin]

You can't just go around arresting politicians for making promises they can't keep.

This was not about promises. This was about facts he knowingly lied about.

[Slant]

This was not about promises. This was about facts he knowingly lied about.

I don't care. Big picture, mate. This isn't about him lying. This is about the profits he and his cronies are racking up with this escapade.

In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).

[Noradin]

I don't care. Big picture, mate. This isn't about him lying. This is about the profits he and his cronies are racking up with this escapade.

In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).

There is one*, but apparently they think it does not apply to MPs because "parliament" will decide their punishment case by case (and decided not to punish BJ).

*misconduct in public office

[Kallisto]

So... but when the EU does this "you live here, you vote here", Dribs throws a hissy fit? How cute.

They're picking their battles. First it's the EU (since that was where they had the highest chance of winning.). Then it will be the Asians and other foreigners. Then it will be the multi ethnics. (British + X)

[Wyrt]

Well, they did it once more. They managed to find someone else to blame...

https://scramnews.com/brexit-party-i...Kr8nwlWJ8zb-UY



Bad Pakistani!

The irony is, them leaving the EU won't change anything about those bad Pakistanis.

Also funny, can Pakistani just vote like that? Don't they have to be British citizens to begin with? In which case, aren't they British instead of Pakistani? So many questions...

Funny part is, a lot of those "Pakistanis" are there because they served in the British army when they were a colony of the UK. And then another group came over in the 1950s-60s when they were part of the Commonwealth and the UK needed workers.

So it has literally fuck all to do with the EU and it's just the Brexit party being racist.

[Mayhem]

In other words, there is no law against simple lying (unless you are in special circumstances, like witness in a court etc.).

Wat?!

Arglistige Täuschung im Zivil- und Verwaltungsrecht.

Don't know if there is something equivalent to malicious deception in British law because they have a very fucked up definition of law, at least in my opinion.

[dribbles]

Really, the cesspit I was referring to was one of conflict. But as you've started...

You do understand that in my 20 years of working I've never once benefitted from the workers' rights you keep banging on about so much. Union protection, State protection, job security, sick pay, paternity leave, holiday pay. Nah... nothing. Diddly fucking squat. Hammond, in particular, has been after my demographic (self-employed sole trader) for his entire period in No.11. Apparently, I don't give enough. Squeeze a little harder.

Yes, I'm lucky enough to earn a decent income. I give a large percentage of that income to the Crown. That's fine. But there will come a point when I will refuse to pay for the decisions of racist baby boomers, thickie Sun-readers & whining socialists.

What is your solution to austerity other than borrowing more? Why are you shouting at me? Fuck off and shout at those individuals and companies who evade their taxes. Not me.

If you are lucky enough to earn a decent income and give a large percentage of it to the crown then that is your choice.

The same mechanisms to avoid, not evade, paying large tax bills are open to you as are to me. Only fools ever pay more than 20% income tax, which is not really a large percentage is it.

If you choose not to take advantage of these and in effect hand your hard earned to thicko sun readers and sofa lounging jeremy kyle fans you have only yourself to blame.

You can be sure whining socialists are taking advantage of them...why not you?

[Huehuecoyotl]

If you are lucky enough to earn a decent income and give a large percentage of it to the crown then that is your choice.

The same mechanisms to avoid, not evade, paying large tax bills are open to you as are to me. Only fools ever pay more than 20% income tax, which is not really a large percentage is it.

If you choose not to take advantage of these and in effect hand your hard earned to thicko sun readers and sofa lounging jeremy kyle fans you have only yourself to blame.

You can be sure whining socialists are taking advantage of them...why not you?

You are showing your ignorance again dribbles. Sure, the really high earners can set themselves up to avoid as much tax as they want to. But people like nigel I suspect came under the IR35 umbrella, and have been ring-fenced pretty solidly (and in some cases chased for tax that was "avoided" way back in the past). Don't try and put them in the same category as the millionaires paying pennies, because they aren't, and they can't.

If you are in the really high-earning group, then that does explain why your understanding of the world is so disconnected. Doesn't explain the rascism, but does give a better handle on where the fascism comes from. Every day we get a clearer picture of you, thanks to your posts.

[dribbles]

You are showing your ignorance again dribbles. Sure, the really high earners can set themselves up to avoid as much tax as they want to. But people like nigel I suspect came under the IR35 umbrella, and have been ring-fenced pretty solidly (and in some cases chased for tax that was "avoided" way back in the past). Don't try and put them in the same category as the millionaires paying pennies, because they aren't, and they can't.

If you are in the really high-earning group, then that does explain why your understanding of the world is so disconnected. Doesn't explain the rascism, but does give a better handle on where the fascism comes from. Every day we get a clearer picture of you, thanks to your posts.

Well the fairly recent IR35 ruling is fair and people being creative and pretending to be companies when they are really employees to evade, not avoid, tax have been royally caught and stuffed, deservedly so in my opinion.

Oh the racist bit again, you do make me giggle. Here's something for you. Boris Johnson is of muslim heritage and had an Indian wife. You think he is racist? What about the ethnic diversity of the MEP's and EU governance compared with the UK government, the brexit party? Eh Eh! Come come, explain your way out of that one...

[Slant]

Wat?!

Arglistige Täuschung im Zivil- und Verwaltungsrecht.

Don't know if there is something equivalent to malicious deception in British law because they have a very fucked up definition of law, at least in my opinion.

As I said, lying itself is not illegal. The concept exists in law, of course. But what's happening here is that the legal decision achieved through lying to you can be declared void. It doesn't mean that you can't try to lie your way through life. Just means that when someone catches you lying, he can cancel whatever binding promise he made to you based on those lies. There is no actual punishment. The lie itself is not considered "illegal" in itself. But the lie nullifies the binding character of the agreement.

Also, politicians and their voters don't enter into a contract. There is no legal relationship between them directly. Them lying doesn't really apply to the type of law you mentioned. But as I said, they are acting fraudulently (by lying).

Am I being too pedantic?

[Mayhem]

As I said, lying itself is not illegal. What you're describing is the concept of achieving something by lying, what's illegal is not that you lie, it's that you manipulate another person into a decision by lying.

Politicians and their voters don't enter into a contract. There is no legal relationship between them directly. Them lying doesn't really apply to the type of law you mentioned. But as I said, they are acting fraudulently (by lying).

Interesting, so politicians basing everything on a decision by the populace fraudulently achieved by said politicians isn't some kind of break of contract. Also isn't the personal gain part of the legal definition, you don't actually need a contract?

Am I being too pedantic?

yes

[Slant]

Interesting, so politicians basing everything on a decision by the populace fraudulently achieved by said politicians isn't some kind of break of contract. Also isn't the personal gain part of the legal definition, you don't actually need a contract?



yes

I think you're throwing some different concepts together that don't belong in the same box, tbh. You don't need a contract to commit fraud. All you need to do is manipulate someone into doing something and profiting from it based on a deception.

[Mayhem]

I think you're throwing some different concepts together that don't belong in the same box, tbh. You don't need a contract to commit fraud. All you need to do is manipulate someone into doing something and profiting from it based on a deception.

No, it seems you're now agreeing with me. So it is fraud then? Because gaining seats/votes and receiving funds/positions in the process sure seems like profit to me.

[Kronik85]

How on earth do you get it down to 20%?

This is a bit OT - but aren't you a ltd. company / dividend-drawer, not a sole trader? So, you have a clever accountant who does it?

My problem is that I've always been stuck in that awkward should I turn myself into a company or not bracket and never bothered.

Ho hum.

Wife is an accountant if you want me to ask for you. ;P

[dribbles]

How on earth do you get it down to 20%?

This is a bit OT - but aren't you a ltd. company / dividend-drawer, not a sole trader? So, you have a clever accountant who does it?

My problem is that I've always been stuck in that awkward should I turn myself into a company or not bracket and never bothered.

Ho hum.

Well the attraction of becoming ltd has fallen a little since they reduced tax free dividend income recently from 10k to 2K a year. Might still be worth it though even with the extra admin. But it depends what you regard as decent I suppose - we could take the crowns view on that and say it is at the level at which you start to pay a penal 40% tax. So the question really is can you survive on £1000 or, double that for a couple, a week? In which case all excess is best dumped in a SIPP up to your 40k a year limit so none of that has tax paid on it. Even more so if you have children and want to keep your child benefit, I know I do. So that's earnings of £90k per annum with an effective tax rate reduced to below 20% per person take care of, above that I haven't a clue. But if in that position I sure would have...

Of course if you are super rich with 6 figure salaries like many public sector workers, doctors, headmasters etc etc you start to run into the problem of only being allowed £1 million ish in your pension pot now. That, not brexit, explains the shortage of staff in those professions as they start to retire pension capped in their 40's. It is not worth those people getting out of bed in the morning if half their income is being taxed with no way to mitigate that any more.

They need to raise the pension cap back to what it was at £1.5 million ish a couple of years ago or reduce taxes for wealthy people to encourage them to stay working. No way I'm paying 40% tax to see it wasted on scroungers...

[Slant]

No, it seems you're now agreeing with me. So it is fraud then? Because gaining seats/votes and receiving funds/positions in the process sure seems like profit to me.

No idea man, you started this... perhaps you'd like to go back to what I posted and verify that you still want to nitpick it.