[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[ati87]

I think BJ is on the right track.

The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.

You may say that the UK still has to abandon a lot of positions, but i think they could sell such a cut as total victory. I mean, look at some posters here, they'll swallow ANYTHING.

hahaha

You know that the divorce bill isn't free money that can be just tbe reduced right? It's obligations that the UK has agreed upon while being part of the EU

[Pannonian]

hahaha

You know that the divorce bill isn't free money that can be just tbe reduced right? It's obligations that the UK has agreed upon while being part of the EU

I'm aware of that. But to re-finance projects, re-organize them, or simply get the funds somewhere else, is much easier for the EU to do than giving an inch on their principles. And it is less costly (for the EU) than an unregulated hard berxit fireworks shitshow.

Just saying that i can see the EU reducing the "divorce bill" rather than the border issue or the major freedoms of movement. And if Boris is already making this divorce bill a topic, he could easily sell it as a win.

[Pannonian]

I mean we could use some creative accounting to shift some obligations that are local in the UK so that the UK has to pay them directly and not through the EU and that would cut down the bill significantly. It would be messy to repurpose the existing contracts of course but it should be doable.

Or something like this. Then BJ can announce to the public how much less money they will give Brussels, and how that was a glorious victory. People who bought the NHS lie, will buy this easily.

[Shalcker]

And most importantly, VAT is transparent for consumers. Sales Tax isn't. The focus of the EU here is consumer protection. The 2012 market regulation reform has added a wealth of information to provide consumers with the most accurate information about pricing (and comparative pricing) possible.

Can you explain to me how VAT gets to be more transparent to consumers then sales tax?

As far as i see in most cases consumer just sees "Sales Tax - +xxx.xx" in their bill; how can it be more transparent with VAT?

Genuinely interested.

Plus, IT infrastructure has been built to work for VAT. Switching to Sales Tax will actually be a far greater headache for business (and their IT and Accounting departments) than the different VAT rates are, unless you are my fucking country where we've changed VAT rates 3 times in the last 4 years and the last time a couple of week ago happened with ONE working day with us having the legislation on our hands . . .

...well, as your example shows, VAT can be a headache as well.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Can you explain to me how VAT gets to be more transparent to consumers then sales tax?

As far as i see in most cases consumer just sees "Sales Tax - +xxx.xx" in their bill; how can it be more transparent with VAT?

...well, as your example shows, VAT can be a headache as well.

AFAIK VAT has to be included in the sticker price, Sales Tax doesn't. So if you want to buy something that is labelled as costing 8.99, then you actually pay 8.99 at the till.

[Shalcker]

AFAIK VAT has to be included in the sticker price, Sales Tax doesn't. So if you want to buy something that is labelled as costing 8.99, then you actually pay 8.99 at the till.

Well, legally compelling to show sales tax and/or final price on sticker as part of consumer protection bill isn't exactly difficult and usually non-controversial (and certainly easier then entirely different tax regime).

Russia is also running VAT though; but it also has occasional "let's switch to sales tax instead" initiatives.

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To add to that, the EU regulations also require that beyond VAT, the sticker price also shows price per unit so that the consumer can compare different products more easily; otherwise you need to get a calculator out to compare an 85g pack to a 100g one.

I don't see how it is going to be any different with sales tax.

[Slant]

As far as i see sales tax is easier to manage then VAT (primarily on business end). Complicated rules about VAT is one of most common complaints.

They aren't exactly the same unless you think "any tax is interchangeable with any other tax".

So, how are they different then?

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I think BJ is on the right track.

The money the UK has to pay the EU is the perfect exit strategy for both.

The EU wont budge on its prinicple, but still will give something to the brits. Money is easier to move than principles. So if BJ gets the same deal as May, with maybe 50% cut on the divorce bill, the EU could probably be ok with that, while BJ could sell this at home as a big win over Brussels.

You may say that the UK still has to abandon a lot of positions, but i think they could sell such a cut as total victory. I mean, look at some posters here, they'll swallow ANYTHING.

The divorce bill isn't a "bill". It's money the UK already pledged and it already vanished into budgets. It's already spent. People have got to stop using terminology they don't understand. And those 39bn Euros? That is already down from the 120bn Euros the EU originally came up with. How many more times do you want to have it haggled down?

I mean, I'd give them the 39bn Euros, it's small change really... but for the love of god, people have got to stop parroting the bullshit Brexiteers are feeding them.

[Slant]

See my post above Slant, Sales Tax is a very different instrument when it comes to accounting

I know that you know it, I want our resident communist to embarass himself with a funny attempt at explaining a difference that actually matters. And then I'd like to talk to him about why European businesses really, really like VAT, because those complicated rules that seem to hurt his brain are actually mostly to support businesses and make taxation easier to handle in a time where trade becomes faster and faster.

And no, I don't mean avoiding tax, that's a separate problem. I mean just the day to day handling of tax in a unit of 28 member states that trade amongst each other like stock brokers on cocaine.

[Pannonian]

So, how are they different then?

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The divorce bill isn't a "bill". It's money the UK already pledged and it already vanished into budgets. It's already spent. People have got to stop using terminology they don't understand. And those 39bn Euros? That is already down from the 120bn Euros the EU originally came up with. How many more times do you want to have it haggled down?

I mean, I'd give them the 39bn Euros, it's small change really... but for the love of god, people have got to stop parroting the bullshit Brexiteers are feeding them.

As stated before, i'm very well aware what it actually entails. But instead of using the term "money the UK pledged and is already planned in the budget" i use the much more commonly referred term "divorce bilL", because that's what the likes of Boris Johnson will call it. If anyone by now still thinks that it is money the UK has to pay to leave the EU, honestly, using more correct but complicated terms will not sway these people. Hell, how do facts work with dribbles?

So instead of posting this explanation, i decided to go with the much shorter "divorce bill".

[Shalcker]

I know that you know it, I want our resident communist to embarass himself with a funny attempt at explaining a difference that actually matters.

I'm asking because i'm actually genuinely curious about practical differences and arguments; i'm not some kind of tax authority.

And then I'd like to talk to him about why European businesses really, really like VAT, because those complicated rules that seem to hurt his brain are actually mostly to support businesses and make taxation easier to handle in a time where trade becomes faster and faster.

Well, why? Could you explain it from business end compared to previous approaches?

Why was VAT superior to any other?

[Ashina]

Johnson wants to massively cut taxes and also significantly increase spending. Lying liars lie I guess.
But I see things split. There is a number of candidates who are moving strongly towards tax reform and tax cuts. And then others who focus on further investment, focusing on education and infrastructure mainly.

It's the Trump doctrine: when you have no actual program or policy, just keep on beating the (mainly corporate) tax cuts/reform and smaller government drum.

[Has lost its way]

I am sure however it ends will be terrible for the UK. Their own politicians seem to believe in the globalist ideal so much they are prepared to sell out their own country to make an example of it.

[Ashina]

I am sure however it ends will be terrible for the UK. Their own politicians seem to believe in the globalist ideal so much they are prepared to sell out their own country to make an example of it.

You mean the anti-globalist ideal. Except for some fringe Labour politicians I really see no globalists on the forefront of UK politics. It's the most nationalist country in Western-Europe.

[Slant]

As stated before, i'm very well aware what it actually entails. But instead of using the term "money the UK pledged and is already planned in the budget" i use the much more commonly referred term "divorce bilL", because that's what the likes of Boris Johnson will call it. If anyone by now still thinks that it is money the UK has to pay to leave the EU, honestly, using more correct but complicated terms will not sway these people. Hell, how do facts work with dribbles?

So instead of posting this explanation, i decided to go with the much shorter "divorce bill".

The reason of BoJo calling it that is exactly the reason NOT to call it that. People like you buying into their propaganda and pretty much doing their dirty work for them is part of the problem. Divorce bill isn't a convenience term in the same way that we shouldn't go around saying North Korea is democratic, even if it's in their name.

Nobody here is trying to convince Dribbles of anything. He's a forum troll that just posts to rile people up and get a reaction out of us. You're posting for the other couple dozen people that don't post but read. The people that need to know that Dribbles is a minority. That he is a lying git.

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I'm asking because i'm actually genuinely curious about practical differences and arguments; i'm not some kind of tax authority.

Thsi isn't a politics 101 ask random questions thread. If you don't know stuff, don't bring it up in a debate. Either make a new thread or employ the assistance of Google.

[dribbles]

I am sure however it ends will be terrible for the UK. Their own politicians seem to believe in the globalist ideal so much they are prepared to sell out their own country to make an example of it.

But, but what if its not terrible? Does that give you nightmares eurochums? What if leaving the EU is the best thing since sliced bread that can happen to a country?

As for paying the divorce bill, sure the UK has obligations but so do the EU, they meet theirs = we meet ours. We will not be paying £39bn for nothing in return, would you?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

As for paying the divorce bill, sure the UK has obligations but so do the EU, they meet theirs = we meet ours. We will not be paying £39bn for nothing in return, would you?

Nobody from the EU has said anything to the contrary. It is only the UK (and the extreme brexiteers at that - like yourself) that has been saying it won't honour its commitments and making itself look untrustworthy, unreliable and unsound.

It isn't a "divorce bill". It isn't a "division of assets". It isn't "new debt". It is the UK paying up on its previously agreed contributions to EU projects before it leaves. That is all.

[Dizzeeyooo]

As stated before, i'm very well aware what it actually entails. But instead of using the term "money the UK pledged and is already planned in the budget" i use the much more commonly referred term "divorce bilL", because that's what the likes of Boris Johnson will call it...instead of posting this explanation, i decided to go with the much shorter "divorce bill".

And so you walk right into the reason why much of the world is like it is today - explaining the truth is difficult, so lets use an easy lie for now instead, and then look suprised moving forwards when fascists like Farage use the lie to overwhelm the truth completely.

[Slant]

Nobody from the EU has said anything to the contrary. It is only the UK (and the extreme brexiteers at that - like yourself) that has been saying it won't honour its commitments and making itself look untrustworthy, unreliable and unsound.

It isn't a "divorce bill". It isn't a "division of assets". It isn't "new debt". It is the UK paying up on its previously agreed contributions to EU projects before it leaves. That is all.

I think you're still being too polite. You have to spell it out: The EU doesn't expect any further payments in a crash out, as - I have often said - all treaties cease to apply. ALL OF THEM. Not sure how much clearer I can make it, but there you go... I'm trying to support you.

[JohnBrown1917]

So little Boris is going to get rid of the good Friday agreement? Man, this is going to be fun.




And by fun I mean horrible for the Irish.

[Twdft]

So little Boris is going to get rid of the good Friday agreement? Man, this is going to be fun.




And by fun I mean horrible for the Irish.

Not that surprising, really...

- Good Friday Agreement
- integrity of the Kingdom
- leaving the European union

Whatever happens with Brexit, in the end only two of these three things will stand.