[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Kallisto]

In all honesty, I half wonder if burner is actually a rabid right-winger troll trying to stir up anti-left sentiment.

Certainly, every time I read one of his posts it makes me swing a little to the right.

If austerity is going to kill off his ilk, the sooner the better.

Funny how he calls people blairites because of we don't worship at the alter of "This anti semetic book is great" Corbyn. Which is funny because I actually support some very far left views or what would be in the UK leftist. I wish we could as a country go back to debating things like renationalisation of the railways (support), our defense (we need to build up. We retired far too many things too soon.), trident I am iffy on (mostly down to how US reliant we would be with it). I support a larger increase in the minimum wage, while not a destruction on 0 hour contracts (some people they are useful) but actual limits to where and how they can be used.

I'm heavily supportive of renewables, increase in taxation of the wealthy. More local representation. I've moved to quite supportive of Scottish and Northern Irish independence if they wish it due to the nature of the far right English who have become increasingly hostile to our other members of the UK. I'm for finding a way to get to universal basic income just incase automation does get to the point most jobs are simply not viable. Also reforming the country socially to be more like how scandinavian countries are with education, prison systems etc. Which gives them lower crime and much lower reoffending rates.

For the EU I am unashamably pro federalization. I will not apologize for that. I have studied history enough to know if you're not part of the big table, the big table will do what it can to fuck you over directly or indirectly. The UK alone can't do that. Neither really can France or Germany long term. Other nations are modernizing and have the manpower and natural recources to push their viewpoints. Not just USA and China but also India, Indonesia, Brazil and many others through moderinization will be beyond any single EU nation long term.

Which is why I want a federal europe. Together we are strong. We won't be pawns of the others. As IDS said recently about EU negotiators, they're basically the best in the world right now. They know how to be patient and get the best deals. Better than what the US can get, better than what China can get. They know when to walk away, when to renegotiate. They also won't break their 4 freedoms for some small 3rd party island or large 3rd party super power. It's pragmatic to be within than outside.

What I can't do however is support Labour's anti semite leadership right now who at worst is looking the other way to appease "His friends." in Hamas and Hezbollah. At worst is part of it with his "This book is great." which pretty much states all world problems are because of Jews.

[Slant]

I do see it as a bluff, since adding funds to those agencies now is a matter of optics, we are such a short time away and they are still debating the rest of the funds they want to give to those agencies. This is a weak single from the UK to the EU trying to get the EU to blink, won't work as all previous attempts.

Perhaps if the UK did this more than a year ago during May, it might have had an impact but the EU has been preparing since May failed for a no-deal scenario.

It wouldn't have worked then, either. I'm surprised you say this. You know this was never a poker game. There was never any possibility of blinking. The EU practically had no red lines other than the ones that would lead to the dismantling of core EU features like the single market. They practically gave everything away to the UK because they wanted to be the good guys. They couldn't even give more if they wanted to.

That this isn't enough for the UK is too bad, because they could literally run a nuclear bomb clock in London to 1 second and the EU couldn't budge, blink, give in, resign or any other thing in that direction...

[Tandrath]

Funny how he calls people blairites because of we don't worship at the alter of "This anti semetic book is great" Corbyn... At worst is part of it with his "This book is great." which pretty much states all world problems are because of Jews.

Oh dear. No, the book doesn't say that at all.

First, the book is not about Jews. It is called "Imperialism:: A study". Now I'm guessing you didn't have the benefit of a higher education and have never actually read it, which would be fine, except you chose to lie about it. 99% of it is about imperialism, as you would guess from the title.

The full text of the book is here: archive.org/stream/imperialismastu00goog/imperialismastu00goog_djvu.txt

You will note that if you use ctrl+f and scan through it there is literally NO mention of Jews or Judaism, the words simply do not appear.

Once again: there is literally NO mention of Jews or Judaism, the words simply do not appear.

There is one paragraph on page 64 that mentions Jewish financiers indirectly. That is it. If you think Corbyn noticed that paragraph, or indeed read the thing at all, then you give him way more credit than I do. The author essentially says that Jews control the global financial system. It is an overstatement perhaps, but Jews are and were disproportionately involved in finance for historical reasons, this is mostly just a statement of fact.

This type of thing is what makes it so difficult to be civil with you people. You made up an obvious lie, which is bad enough, but worse you insult my intelligence by implying that I'm too stupid to be familiar with the source or go and check it if I'm not. You smear a whole class of people by association with a very ugly and baseless accusation.

[Slant]

Oh dear. No, the book doesn't say that at all.

First, the book is not about Jews. It is called "Imperialism:: A study". Now I'm guessing you didn't have the benefit of a higher education and have never actually read it, which would be fine, except you chose to lie about it.

The full text of the book is here: archive.org/stream/imperialismastu00goog/imperialismastu00goog_djvu.txt

You will note that if you use ctrl+f and scan through it there is literally NO mention of Jews or Judaism, the words simply do not appear.

Once again: there is literally NO mention of Jews or Judaism, the words simply do not appear.

There is one paragraph on page 64 that mentions Jewish financiers indirectly. That is it. If you think Corbyn noticed that paragraph, or indeed read the thing at all, then you give him way more credit than I do. The author essentially says that Jews control the global financial system. It is an overstatement perhaps, but Jews are and were disproportionately involved in finance, this is mostly just a statement of fact.

This type of thing is what makes it so difficult to be civil with you people. You made up a lie, which is bad enough, but worse you insult my intelligence by implying that I'm too stupid to be familiar with the source or go and check it if I'm not. You smear a whole class of people by association with a very ugly and baseless accusation.

Only a dumbass would pick a badly scanned, low quality text and then go through it with a ctrl-f search...

PART I
THE ECONOMICS OF IMPERIAUSM



CHAf.



« I. The Mkasubb op Imfkbialish

* IL Thb Commiiboial Yalub of Impbrialibii

* III. Impiirialism ab an Outlrt fob Population
' IV. Economic Parabitbb of Impbbialism

Y. ImPSBIALISH BA0HD ON PbOTBCTION .

YL Thb Eoonomio Tapboot of Impbbialibm .
Yn. Impbbialist Financb ....

But why even go through the text, when Wikipedia has an entire section on his anti-semitism, with scientific citations as well. It seems Hobson's anti-semitism is pretty well documented...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperi...%22_and_racism

But please, don't let facts get in the way of you spinning a story... you wanted to ramble on about somethingsomething poor misunderstood Corbyn...

[LeGin Tufnel]

Funny how he calls people blairites because of we don't worship at the alter of "This anti semetic book is great" Corbyn. Which is funny because I actually support some very far left views or what would be in the UK leftist. I wish we could as a country go back to debating things like renationalisation of the railways (support), our defense (we need to build up. We retired far too many things too soon.), trident I am iffy on (mostly down to how US reliant we would be with it). I support a larger increase in the minimum wage, while not a destruction on 0 hour contracts (some people they are useful) but actual limits to where and how they can be used.

I'm heavily supportive of renewables, increase in taxation of the wealthy. More local representation. I've moved to quite supportive of Scottish and Northern Irish independence if they wish it due to the nature of the far right English who have become increasingly hostile to our other members of the UK. I'm for finding a way to get to universal basic income just incase automation does get to the point most jobs are simply not viable. Also reforming the country socially to be more like how scandinavian countries are with education, prison systems etc. Which gives them lower crime and much lower reoffending rates.

For the EU I am unashamably pro federalization. I will not apologize for that. I have studied history enough to know if you're not part of the big table, the big table will do what it can to fuck you over directly or indirectly. The UK alone can't do that. Neither really can France or Germany long term. Other nations are modernizing and have the manpower and natural recources to push their viewpoints. Not just USA and China but also India, Indonesia, Brazil and many others through moderinization will be beyond any single EU nation long term.

Which is why I want a federal europe. Together we are strong. We won't be pawns of the others. As IDS said recently about EU negotiators, they're basically the best in the world right now. They know how to be patient and get the best deals. Better than what the US can get, better than what China can get. They know when to walk away, when to renegotiate. They also won't break their 4 freedoms for some small 3rd party island or large 3rd party super power. It's pragmatic to be within than outside.

What I can't do however is support Labour's anti semite leadership right now who at worst is looking the other way to appease "His friends." in Hamas and Hezbollah. At worst is part of it with his "This book is great." which pretty much states all world problems are because of Jews.

Well said.

What’s funny is that having been quite anti-EU federalisation, after the events of the last three years I’m pretty much completely for it now. It’s crystal clear our democracy is completely broken. Both in terms of process and the behaviour of politicians who claim to represent us. Our adversarial system is a joke. Literally, we are a laughing stock. If the choice is between ceding some fiscal autonomy and defining myself as “European” inside a federal EU or “taking back control” outside the EU and being tethered to the racist, misogynistic pussy-grabber on the other side of the Atlantic, it’s an absolute no-brainer.

[Slant]

Well said.

What’s funny is that having been quite anti-EU federalisation, after the events of the last three years I’m pretty much completely for it now. It’s crystal clear our democracy is completely broken. Both in terms of process and the behaviour of politicians who claim to represent us. Our adversarial system is a joke. Literally, we are a laughing stock. If the choice is between ceding some fiscal autonomy and defining myself as “European” inside a federal EU or “taking back control” outside the EU and being tethered to the racist, misogynistic pussy-grabber on the other side of the Atlantic, it’s an absolute no-brainer.

Mind you, it's easy to be pro-federalization now, because that's even more unlikely than Brexit not happening right now. The EU is in a good position as it is, baby steps, see where it leads us and how far we want to take it. We need to fix a lot of shit once this circus with the UK is over. And then we can see where we stand.

Still regretable that the dream team is kinda being ripped apart. But I'm hoping for a comeback in 10 years or so. With actual conviction and actually motivated to be part of the team with the same goals in mind.

[Acidbaron]

I find regions striving for independence, more federalization of the EU is needed they have shown they can do it and do it well. Just needs more oversight on several parts when it comes to subsidies and rules that try to change unneeded and unwanted things.

Local representation would still need to be key in all of this. But to deal with the main key issues like immigration, tax evasion and all that we need a more federal europe.

[Kallisto]

The one paragraph was pretty much the summery. It put the entire writing down to "The Jews did this." using anti semitic tones. It's not our fault that dupesalot has no understanding of late 19th early 20th phrases. It wasn't some throwaway paragraph. It was basically "It was because of the jews this is why it happens." using anti semetic terms like ""by men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience" and "are in a unique position to control the policy of nations". This is to the core how Anti Semetism worked. Blame them for controlling all the things behind the scenes so it gives you the right to attack them.

The works of Hobson were one of the biggest influences to the biggest piece of anti semitic writings of the 20th century. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

To deny Hobson's work especially the one mentioned as being anti semitic leaves only two possibilities. A) Said person doesn't know what anti semitism is or B) Is anti Semitic themselves but too scared to outwardly admit it and pushes their hate onto others.

[Slant]

I find regions striving for independence, more federalization of the EU is needed they have shown they can do it and do it well. Just needs more oversight on several parts when it comes to subsidies and rules that try to change unneeded and unwanted things.

Local representation would still need to be key in all of this. But to deal with the main key issues like immigration, tax evasion and all that we need a more federal europe.

Well, it's best to let it organically evolve. Kinda like what's happening now. See what makes sense on an EU-wide level, what makes more sense in a local setting.

[Acidbaron]

Well, it's best to let it organically evolve. Kinda like what's happening now. See what makes sense on an EU-wide level, what makes more sense in a local setting.

There will always be some sort of overlap that doesn't make sense, like something to do in their view for the sake of health and well being but goes in against nation wide traditions. Like how we belgians fry our fries, we do it twice the EU says this increases the chance on cancer that might be so but a lot of things do.

As long there some sort of way to protest and preserve our heritage.

For the record this was not about how you fry them at home, this was about what we call friteries/frituur. Basically a sort of take out shop.

[Slant]

There will always be some sort of overlap that doesn't make sense, like something to do in their view for the sake of health and well being but goes in against nation wide traditions. Like how we belgians fry our fries, we do it twice the EU says this increases the chance on cancer that might be so but a lot of things do.

As long there some sort of way to protest and preserve our heritage.

For the record this was not about how you fry them at home, this was about what we call friteries/frituur. Basically a sort of take out shop.

Everything gives you cancer. Fucking breathing gives you cancer. Fry as many times as you want, we like your fries. You fucking invented that shit, you should know how it's done.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Edit... sorry... waste of time.

[Slant]

I'm Anti-Semantics, is that alright?

[ranzino]

''Schools may have to close, exams could be disrupted and fresh food for pupils’ meals could run short because of panic buying with prices soaring by up to 20%, according to a secret Department for Education analysis of the risks of a no-deal Brexit obtained by the Observer.''

hard cold Brexit and its failures.... in a school next to you. is reality not a wonderful teacher ?

[Kallisto]

''Schools may have to close, exams could be disrupted and fresh food for pupils’ meals could run short because of panic buying with prices soaring by up to 20%, according to a secret Department for Education analysis of the risks of a no-deal Brexit obtained by the Observer.''

hard cold Brexit and its failures.... in a school next to you. is reality not a wonderful teacher ?

Boris won't mind. His Eton will be ok and the peasants will still be there to bow at him and Reese-Mogg. In his mind at least.

[JohnBrown1917]

In all honesty, I half wonder if burner is actually a rabid right-winger troll trying to stir up anti-left sentiment.

Certainly, every time I read one of his posts it makes me swing a little to the right.

If austerity is going to kill off his ilk, the sooner the better.

You guys sure do love showing your true colours.

[Kallisto]

On topic - Dominic Cummings (who I genuinely do want to meet in a dark alley) has briefed MPs that it’s too late for the opposition to force an election before the deadline. Which, prior to recess being taken, was my understanding of the situation. Labour deliberately didn’t force the issue because Corbyn is quite happy to crash out and blame the consequences on the Tories. And I didn’t understand the lack of comment on this at the time. Is he right?

Yes he's right.

Parliament won't come back until September 5th. Even if on that day Corbyn calls for a vote of no confidence it has to go through before September 14th before Parliament goes into recess AGAIN for the conferences. Then even IF the vote of no confidence goes through there's 2 weeks where the conservatives have the right to put together another government.

But here's the problem, the gap between 5th and 14th is 9 days, below the 2 weeks. But even IF Corbyn called for a vote of no Confidence there's at least 1 day of debates to go through. So earliest that would happen is September 6th. Which is a Friday and Parliament barely sits on a Friday. It could if need be and a vote of no confidence might force it. But then again it might not. So the vote is either September 6th or 9th.

Now here's the kicker. Either way the Conservatives by being the largest party still have 2 weeks to attempt to put up a new government and pass a motion of confidence (Parliament is dissolved during this time). But here's the problem. Between September 14th and October the 9th guess what. Parliament is in recess AGAIN, this time for the conferences (seriously they should put the conferences in the summer recess. Having a day or 2 away from the constituence during this time wouldn't hurt.). So that 2 weeks would likely be on hold until Parliament comes back. Which means 1 week after the 9th October so 16th October (unless recess counts as the two weeks I don't know if so roll everything back to 2 weeks after 6th September and go from there.).

Now if the Conservatives don't bring in a government that passes a motion of confidence. A general election is called. These take 6 weeks. So 6 weeks after 16th October is November 27th. But due to UK generally putting general elections on Thursday make it Novermber 28th. (Or if we go by September 6th + 2 weeks for a maybe vote of confidence fail + 6 weeks election low and behold the earliest an election could be called is..... Friday 1st November 2019 aka 1 day after the leave date.)

Of course this is if I got the 2011 fixed term of parliament act read right.

[LeGin Tufnel]

Hmms... so why haven’t Watson, Starmer and co. made a fuss about this? Even McDonnell & Abbott were showing signs of impatience earlier in July. Fucking useless.

And yes, the fact that instead of being in London addressing the monumental crisis that is facing the country they will be on the piss in Bournemouth or Blackpool or wherever, just indicates further how utterly broken this system is.

I can’t honestly believe this would happen, though. Surely they’d cancel the conferences? It’d be the height of hypocrisy. E.g., Labour wringing hands to the party faithful at the idea of a no deal instead of actually doing something about it.

How does it work? Can recesses be cancelled? Surely? It’s not like parliament would go into recess if there was a war going on. What’s the difference? National crisis.

[Kallisto]

Hmms... so why haven’t Watson, Starmer and co. made a fuss about this? Even McDonnell & Abbott were showing signs of impatience earlier in July. Fucking useless.

And yes, the fact that instead of being in London addressing the monumental crisis that is facing the country they will be on the piss in Bournemouth or Blackpool or wherever, just indicates further how utterly broken this system is.

I can’t honestly believe this would happen, though. Surely they’d cancel the conferences? It’d be the height of hypocrisy. E.g., Labour wringing hands to the party faithful at the idea of a no deal instead of actually doing something about it.

How does it work? Can recesses be cancelled? Surely? It’s not like parliament would go into recess if there was a war going on. What’s the difference? National crisis.

Confidence within the PLP is low. They put on an act for the camera but they know FPTP isn't going to help them so most of them didn't jump toward change or LD.

They want Corbyn gone but they also know there are just too many delusional Corbynistas that are in the party overall to be able to oust him so they won't no confidence him again as it would not work and play into Johnson hand (before that May and Cameron).

If we weren't FPTP I doubt this would be an issue. Firstly because the parties would be more different. Blair Labour, Foot/Corbyn Labour would be two different parties.

As for recess being cancelled I think it is possible. But has to be a very good reason like state of war or.... You know a constitutional crisis the likes this nation has not been in during modern times like we're in now. But that's down to Boris and moggy

[Huehuecoyotl]

My assumption is that Labour is not putting forth a motion of no confidence because even if they win the motion, they'd lose the elections and thus gain nothing from it. At most you might have the Tories win a plurality but no majority and then have no government which is just not ideal.

Right now, their only shot is probably to have the Tories eat the damage from Brexit and then try to force an election but I don't exactly see why that would bring Labour on top. They'd still be the party that did nothing to stop this and Lib Dems and regional parties would hammer the message.

Heck it's actually better for the country to go on like this so that the Tories at least have time to pass necessary legislation for No Deal. Can Corbyn really convince Remainers to group behind him in a GE even if it happens after sitting on the fence for so long it's permanently attached to his spine?

If you have an election now, Boris can run it with his hard line "leave on 31 October" message and he may well keep a lot of people that would have deserted for the Brexit party on his side. Labour can wait, knowing that Parliament will stop Brexit happening on that date, then we will have an election where the Boris bounce has faded and he's shown his impotence to the Brexit crowd. Better for Labour and better for the country. Unless the Libs become Tory enablers again, of course.