[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

I guess you could see the 2+ year extension as away to put pressure on the UK parliament: If the extension is not for Jan 31st, Parliament must vote on whether to accept that. The prospect of the flak they would face over such a decision might just make the WA seem a lot more palatable.

It would either way allow the EU to put aside the perpetual Brexit questions for a while.

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/fran...re-evaluation/

Thanks for the link.

The text of the extension bill states that if the EU offer an extension past Jan 31st then Johnson has to either accept the extension or ask parliament if it wishes to accept it. This is really going to put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I will be amazed if this gets through with the rest of the EU or our parliament if it does.

[Slant]

This could be very important

'Vote in the HoC on Grieve motion to compel publication of Yellowhammer and communications relating to prorogation - Result circa 730'

https://twitter.com/labourwhips/stat...24814171557888

I've seen his opening statement to that, it was very heavy stuff as far as the Commons go. He was definitely throwing the big punches and didn't pull back at all.

[Elegiac]

A 2 year extension.

We really aren't being subtle about the plan to just keep putting Brexit off until enough Leave voters die of old age or are too senile to vote so that revoking Article 50 is less politically suicidal, huh?

[Deja Thoris]

A 2 year extension.

We really aren't being subtle about the plan to just keep putting Brexit off until enough Leave voters die of old age or are too senile to vote so that revoking Article 50 is less politically suicidal, huh?

Why be subtle about it? Votes about the long term future shouldn't be undertaken by those who are too old to see that future.

[Elegiac]

Why be subtle about it? Votes about the long term future shouldn't be undertaken by those who are too old to see that future.

I mean I'm not complaining. I just wish Britain would be a little more forthright with its intention to conduct politics as an elaborate Shakespearean farce rather than with any degree of seriousness.

[Gibblewink]

A 2 year extension.

We really aren't being subtle about the plan to just keep putting Brexit off until enough Leave voters die of old age or are too senile to vote so that revoking Article 50 is less politically suicidal, huh?

It is more that the EU council is sick and tired of having each and every summit derailed by an issue that should by rights have been over and done with. So in stead of cutting them off and taking on the role of the villain they smother them with kindness.

[Skroe]

Got it. Doubt it too. But maybe Trump was enough of a wakeup call.

Oh I don't bet on the goodness of their heart or their integrity or principles. I bet on political self interest. They'll be able to tell their knuckledragging supporters they've "reigned in a rogue President" or some crap like that.

[Elegiac]

It is more that the EU council is sick and tired of having each and every summit derailed by an issue that should by rights have been over and done with. So in stead of cutting them off and taking on the role of the villain they smother them with kindness.

Oh to be sure, this isn't an indictment of the EU council at all. They've been nothing but reasonable the entire step of the process and have demonstrated a level of diplomatic professionalism that the UK used to brag about having.

And it would be an excellent way of derailing BoJo's scheme by forcing him to accept an extension that essentially lets Brexit die of old age.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Boris Johnson's body language is really defensive. He looks like he is trying to hide behind his folder.

[Elegiac]

Boris Johnson's body language is really defensive. He looks like he is trying to hide behind his folder.

I wonder if he checks for Remain voters with milkshakes under his bed before he goes to sleep.

[Gibblewink]

Boris Johnson's body language is really defensive. He looks like he is trying to hide behind his folder.

Well, his yearlong dream of premiership - likely wet dreams of being the second coming of Churchill - have crashed and burned spectacularly and turned in to a potential spot as the worst PM in modern memory.

[Elegiac]

Well, his yearlong dream of premiership - likely wet dreams of being the second coming of Churchill - have crashed and burned spectacularly and turned in to a potential spot as the worst PM in modern memory.

The worst in the history of the premiership, more like.

I honestly cannot think of anyone since Walpole that has come into power in a minority government, proceeded to lose his Parliamentary majority, and then deepen it further by expelling more than twenty members of his own party. Oh, and losing every single time you've put a vote to Parliament and having the legislative agenda seized by backbenchers within a month of taking office.

[Breccia]

Boris Johnson's body language is really defensive. He looks like he is trying to hide behind his folder.

Can he do that for two more years?

I guess when even your own brother doesn't have your back, you're expected to be defensive. But come on, this is a losing battle!

[Jessicka]

Question for the British seriously why not just leave?

I think Brexit is stupid too but isn’t it better to just rip off the band aid and get it done?

Because leaving without a deal is the one thing we’ve basically got majority confirmation, both in public and in Parliament, is a terrible idea.

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I think we are well over a chance for a deal to be acceptable to everyone. Your best bet is finding a deal that is the least bad
Check this poll: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...n-voter-brexit

I think EFTA would be most widely accepted, but we have a Hard right Government now who won’t even compromise to that.

[Slant]

Why be subtle about it? Votes about the long term future shouldn't be undertaken by those who are too old to see that future.

To be fair, in many other countries such a fundamental change to the path of a country (of constitutional weight) requires a two-third majority of informed and professional law-makers, not a simple majority of the masses getting their information from the Sun...

[Jessicka]

I mean I'm not complaining. I just wish Britain would be a little more forthright with its intention to conduct politics as an elaborate Shakespearean farce rather than with any degree of seriousness.

It is slow because it’s serious. I get there are posters here who think jumping on the nuclear button is the best way to conduct business. 300 years of democratic experience and a thousand years of monarchs beforehand doing exactly that have actually taught us something.

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To be fair, in many other countries such a fundamental change to the path of a country (of constitutional weight) requires a two-third majority of informed and professional law-makers, not a simple majority of the masses getting their information from the Sun...

So our first referendum was to stay in the European Single Market in the mid 70s. There was opposition to it even happening because it questioned Parliamentary sovereignty. This is why we only had like 2 since then. Both of which had a 50%+1 majority requirement.

A super majority might be what other countries ask for, but it’s not how we conduct business.

[Elegiac]

It is slow because it’s serious.

No.

It's slow because the United Kingdom has an antiquated, byzantine political system that is ill equipped to handle general domestic issues in the modern period, let alone the level of nuance necessary in international relations, and it has been entirely reliant on there being sufficiently competent people in power rather than having the ability to deal with a crisis without entering systemic paralysis.

I get that there is a long and storied history of Britain's political follies being cast as virtues when the stars happened to align in their favour - see: the complete about face in British international relations when Gladstone replaced Disraeli and the chaos that caused - but what this has ultimately led to is a complete inability to analyse the British political system in objective terms. Fundamental questions like "what reason does Britain have to be a monarchy in the modern period?" and "is the United Kingdom actually an equitable cultural entity or is it really just a legacy of English imperialism?" are non grata precisely because of 300 years of democratic experience and a thousand years of monarchs beforehand.

The weight of prestige is slowly crushing the United Kingdom to death.

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Like, seriously. At what point did "we are such an ancient and prestigious polity that rarely if ever changes its way of doing things regardless of how much damage it causes in the meantime" stop being a PR talking point being marketed to the colonials and enter the realm of foundational statement for the British political system?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

293 voted for the election. That is 5 less than last time.

46 voted against.

[Skroe]

I mean I'm not complaining. I just wish Britain would be a little more forthright with its intention to conduct politics as an elaborate Shakespearean farce rather than with any degree of seriousness.

Honestly, three years ago I reacted with horror at Brexit (and this was before Trump was elected). I wasn't surprised, given how then PM David Cameron was capable of little more than stunning ineptitude, and the British people dived head first into "pulling back" bullshit since the Iraq War and Financial Crisis.

But at this point, I'm in pure cynicism mode. There is no "win condition" here for anybody. I want to see them out of the EU, which is more important to the future of the US than they and their delusions of grandeur about "Global Britain" are by far.

[Slant]

So our first referendum was to stay in the European Single Market in the mid 70s. There was opposition to it even happening because it questioned Parliamentary sovereignty. This is why we only had like 2 since then. Both of which had a 50%+1 majority requirement.

A super majority might be what other countries ask for, but it’s not how we conduct business.

Perhaps it is time to question that. "It's how we always do it" is usually a bad argument.