View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #22321
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU caved by accepting NI will remain in the UK customs area, not in the original WA.
    Verbally inside the UK customs area, but applying EU tariffs and VAT on all goods "at risk of entering the single market" - so basically everything, plus level playing field alignment between EU and NI, regardless if rest of UK diverges.

    "No British Government could or should sign up to something like this" - if you agreed with Johnson then, god knows why you agree with him now.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-10-17 at 10:44 AM.

  2. #22322
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So the referendum is on Johnson's deal? So what is the other option?
    Johnson's deal (if nothing else changes) or remain.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-10-17 at 10:48 AM.

  3. #22323
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Verbally inside the UK customs area, but applying EU tariffs and VAT on all goods "at risk of entering the single market" - so basically everything, plus level playing field alignment between EU and NI, regardless if rest of UK diverges.

    "No British Government could or should sign up to something like this" - if you agreed with Johnson then, god knows why you agree with him now.
    The EU have, screaming and kicking, removed the backstop as demanded by the UK, it is gone. Johnson said that about May's deal, this is not the same deal.

    Going forward.

    Again, under instruction from the UK, the EU will say to the UK parliament it is this deal or no deal.

    This Saturday remainer MP's in parliament will be faced with a clear choice, vote for this deal or you get no deal. What do you think they will vote for? Hahahaha...

    Checkmate.
    Last edited by dribbles; 2019-10-17 at 11:02 AM.
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  4. #22324
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Not looking likely now because of the DUP. Perhaps they are holding out for a few more billion, we'll see.

    But a useful lesson was learnt, it shows the EU caved.

    The EU were telling porkies when they said they wouldn't re-open the WA, they did. Just shows the strength of the UK negotiating position wouldn't you say?
    The EU has always prefered an agreement, the red lines are removed in what they’ve negotiated, that’s Boris caving in, now the DUP is in charge and ignorant brexiteers cant cry “omg he EU is to blame!”

    But I do enjoy watching how you do not understand this deal.
    Last edited by Crispin; 2019-10-17 at 11:07 AM.

  5. #22325
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU caved by accepting NI will remain in the UK customs area, not in the original WA.
    The EU caved by allowing NI a periodic vote to leave the new agreed arrangement rather than being trapped prisoner forever as in the original WA.

    The UK held all the cards, the EU caved on the original WA. I told you so.

    A fantastic first step towards a clean brexit for GB and a staged softer one on the same end path for NI.

    Those blue passports will be a joy to hold...
    Those are things in the original deal that were untenable, Boris actually backtracked, hard. Except the blue passports, which we could have had anyway, like Croatia.

  6. #22326
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Checkmate.
    Nigel Farage reacts to deal: It's just not Brexit
    Not voting Brexit Party LTD any more then?

  7. #22327
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU have, screaming and kicking, removed the backstop as demanded by the UK, it is gone. Johnson said that about May's deal, this is not the same deal.

    Going forward.

    Again, under instruction from the UK, the EU will say to the UK parliament it is this deal or no deal.

    This Saturday remainer MP's in parliament will be faced with a clear choice, vote for this deal or you get no deal. What do you think they will vote for? Hahahaha...

    Checkmate.
    a border in the Irish sea to allow NI to remain in the EU customs union and keep an open border with Ireland, a requirement of the good friday agreement, was always an option for the EU.
    May didn't offer it because its a red line for the DUP who formed part of the government and were needed for a majority.

    How does Boris crossing this red line make it a concession from the EU?

    The backstop was never something the EU 'demanded'. It was the only possible solution at the time (because of the DUP's red line) to prevent a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland which would violate the good friday agreement. If the UK had a different solution to the problem of the border, like putting it in the Irish sea, the EU has always been willing to remove the backstop.

    The EU hasn't caved on any of their principles which they have always been open about, this is Boris Johnson throwing Northern Ireland under the bus.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #22328
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU have, screaming and kicking, removed the backstop as demanded by the UK, it is gone. Johnson said that about May's deal, this is not the same deal.

    Going forward.

    Again, under instruction from the UK, the EU will say to the UK parliament it is this deal or no deal.

    This Saturday remainer MP's in parliament will be faced with a clear choice, vote for this deal or you get no deal. What do you think they will vote for? Hahahaha...

    Checkmate.
    "Accordingly, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern
    Ireland in the territorial scope of any agreements it may conclude with third countries, provided that
    those agreements do not prejudice the application of this Protocol."

    Read: You can't sign any FTA with any country that contradicts this deal. The UK has given up quite a bit of freedom of action to sign FTA's with other countries.
    - Lars

  9. #22329
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The Tories are far more split than the other parties, this is why Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, Plaid, can comfortably declare support for remain. Leave in Labour is actually a much more fringe aspect with little more than a dozen MPs leaning that way. For the Tories it's like 60-40% Leave to Remain; keeping the rich rich, and making the poor poorer and more plentiful is a much stronger bond for them.
    It's not so much where the MP's are on the issue, as it is the constituents. 6 out of 10 labour MPs represent Constituancys that voted to leave. Wigan, Bolton, Rochdale, Salford... There all salt of the earth working class towns and city's, strong Labour bastions, all voted to leave.

    That's why Labour is in a catch-22 and what is really dividing Labour at the moment over the brexit issue.

    The libdems in a way have the luxury that they didn't have alot of constituants to think about when they made there stand.

    But the problem for Labour is that fundementaly people are No Brexit or No deal, acording to some polling from the BBC recently the number of people who even care about a deal is around 9%

    Any deal is Strangely the least favorite of the 3 options. So standing in the we will do brexit but with a different deal than May isn't a winning ticket with voters and I have no doubt Labour MPs are not blind to the current polls on that.

    The sudden surge of the lib Dems and brexit party, as well the Conservative turn about when jhonson got in are entirly down to taking a strong stance in one of the two options that has majority support from the voters, Labour unfortunately is only appealing to the small sub percentage of people who want to leave with a deal but also specifically with a Labour deal.

  10. #22330
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    An agreement being reached in Brussels wasn't the hard part here, relatively speaking, it's getting that ratified in UK parliament afterwards that is.

    A deal that for all intents and purposes treats Northern Ireland differently than the rest of the UK is going to face a lot of opposition in UK parliament.

  11. #22331
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    An agreement being reached in Brussels wasn't the hard part here, relatively speaking, it's getting that ratified in UK parliament afterwards that is.

    A deal that for all intents and purposes treats Northern Ireland differently than the rest of the UK is going to face a lot of opposition in UK parliament.
    It's not even legal under UK law to have NI have different customs rules to the rest of GB either.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

    I mean, it was a law literally passed last year to prevent this kind of deal.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2019-10-17 at 12:47 PM.

  12. #22332
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    His laying wreaths at terrorist memorials and calling those that kill Jews for fun as friends all add up.
    Pathetic .
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  13. #22333
    It is absolutely amazing watching dribbles' cognitive dissonance at work lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The UK held all the cards
    Name the cards the UK holds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Not really in the cases in regard to the past year or so of Jewish members of Labour leaving. They're being attacked for being Jewish and also Jeremy Corbyn promotion of "The Jews did this." the book. His laying wreaths at terrorist memorials and calling those that kill Jews for fun as friends all add up.
    This is such a lazy propaganda talking point. It doesn't stand up to a second of honest scrutiny. You're just proving Rochana completely right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Usually when someone throws the anti-semitism accusation around it is because someone dared being critical of Israel's mistreatment of Palestina.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    a border in the Irish sea to allow NI to remain in the EU customs union and keep an open border with Ireland, a requirement of the good friday agreement, was always an option for the EU.
    May didn't offer it because its a red line for the DUP who formed part of the government and were needed for a majority.

    How does Boris crossing this red line make it a concession from the EU?

    The backstop was never something the EU 'demanded'. It was the only possible solution at the time (because of the DUP's red line) to prevent a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland which would violate the good friday agreement. If the UK had a different solution to the problem of the border, like putting it in the Irish sea, the EU has always been willing to remove the backstop.

    The EU hasn't caved on any of their principles which they have always been open about, this is Boris Johnson throwing Northern Ireland under the bus.
    Do you think he makes this nonsense up or is someone feeding him?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #22334
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The EU have, screaming and kicking, removed the backstop as demanded by the UK, it is gone.
    The funny side of the No 10 claim they have got rid of the backstop is that they have in fact transformed it from a fallback into the definitive future arrangement for NI with the province remaining in the Single Market and Customs Union.
    #winning

  15. #22335
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Do you think he makes this nonsense up or is someone feeding him?
    I'm not familiar with all the British press but I assume its being fed by some pro-Brexit groups or communities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's not even legal under UK law to have NI have different customs rules to the rest of GB either.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

    I mean, it was a law literally passed last year to prevent this kind of deal.
    To funny.
    The downside of last second deal making. You forget to check if the deal can even legally be done, tho you would assume the British negotiation team should have been aware of this law existing.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #22336
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The downside of last second deal making. You forget to check if the deal can even legally be done, tho you would assume the British negotiation team should have been aware of this law existing.
    If they have the votes to pass the deal, they also have the votes to repeal the specific law that the deal breaks - the irony of Rees-Mogg backing a deal that breaks/requires a repeal of a law he introduced notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-10-17 at 01:21 PM.

  17. #22337
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I'm not familiar with all the British press but I assume its being fed by some pro-Brexit groups or communities.
    It's legendarily awful, still the level of weapons-grade nonsense he's spouting seems too high even for Britain. I wonder if there's some equivalent of Breitbart in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #22338
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It's legendarily awful, still the level of weapons-grade nonsense he's spouting seems too high even for Britain. I wonder if there's some equivalent of Breitbart in the UK.
    The Sun and Times, the two with the largest circulation are Murdoch papers. The Daily Mail is next up, also run by Brexiteers, as are the Telegraph and Express.

    Basically the pro remain media consists of the Guardian, Mirror and Independent. None of which have much of a circulation or actually make money.

    The press is horrendously partisan and through shifting the Overton window, essentially pull the “impartial” BBC over as well. Which is why the BBC ends up trying to balance objective facts with some lunatic like Nigel Lawson who just shouts he disagrees and contributes nothing else.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2019-10-17 at 01:49 PM.

  19. #22339
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    The DUP won't back this deal.

    It's DoA in the Commons, expect the Benn act to kick in.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  20. #22340
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Again, under instruction from the UK, the EU will say to the UK parliament it is this deal or no deal.
    So an unelected, retiring bureaucrat says: No extension, take this new treaty or just leave.

    He is overriding the Benn Act.
    Dribbles is presumably burning his Nigel Farage and Brexit Party LTD memorabilia right now.

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