View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #23501
    Shockingly a man who has consistently pushed for a hard crash out of the EU continues to push for a hard crash after winning a landslide victory.

    Boris didn't push for such a hard exit to get votes. He does it because his backers behind the scenes are set to earn a fuckload of money off of it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  2. #23502
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey, people don't trust Boris Johnson's intentions on account of him being a lying liar who lies
    Boris lies to complete his goal.
    His goal is to cause a hard crash. This really isn't rocket science.

    He wasn't laying about wanting to cause a hard crash while putting forth measures to vote on that would cause a hard crash while actually wanting to implement a soft exit that he never once alluded or attempted to.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #23503
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It's still not going to be a hard crash though. I am certain the EU will give him a solid offer if with a very limited scope, well in line with the withdrawal agreement. He will have to own a hard crash by refusing to sign that deal when that happens.
    its going to be a hard crash because there is no way a trade deal is finished and signed within a year, as every expert who has ever been involved in one has been saying for a while now.
    Remember, outside of the negotiations itself it has to rectified by all EU member governments, not just the leader saying 'ok' but the actual governing bodies.

    Parliament could force him to extend to prevent it, which is why he wants to introduce a law to stop that now, instead of having it happen at the last minute.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #23504
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right but the point is we don't have to be stupid we can improve and avoid past mistakes. We have free will which means there's no reason why we ever have to go to war and kill people. It's always a choice and never inevitable based on historical cycles.
    It's based on personal greed and aggrandisement, which is fundamental to conservatism. It's never about 'getting better' as a society so long as there will be a desire to get better, or rather more personally. Whether or not its a realistic notion, people like to be sold the idea that they're just temporarily short on cashflow to become a millionaire. That then drives them to support policy and ideals that one day they might benefit from, even though very clearly it doesn't now, and actually impedes that probability further.

    As irrational as it might be to the group, it becomes entirely rational to the individual. People aren't driven by the laws of physics, this is why it's behavioural science, it's still science, and it's predictable, manipulable, and entirely why things do go in never ending cycles. Maybe once we understand it beyond just manipulating it toward selfish ends, while those same manipulators pretend to dismiss it so we ignore them, we'll get past it. But, it's all a part of the denialism, which is its own mass manipulable human behaviour, rich people with resources are going to pull on those strings as ever they have, and as tech improves, they'll only get better at it. Until they wipe us out with global warming and ecological breakdown. But at least they'll die rich.

  5. #23505
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nope, here is how you failed to understand what I said.

    You can narrow the scope of a deal significantly to the point that it only deals with EU competencies; that is the competencies at which the member states have ceded sovereignty to the Commission and EU Parliament. Thus the scope of such an agreement would not at all mention security, would largely not discuss trade in services, but can discuss tariffs and quotas. Such a limited agreement does not need to be ratified by the individual governments. Multiple EU diplomats have stated that it is possible to negotiate such a narrow deal in this restricted timeframe.
    ignoring for the moment that Boris has no obligation to seek a competencies deal and likely doesn't care about being blamed for it, your ignoring services.
    Which is a large part of Britains economy and the heart of London. So in so far as the economy is concerned, your still basically hard crashing out.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #23506
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    ignoring for the moment that Boris has no obligation to seek a competencies deal and likely doesn't care about being blamed for it, your ignoring services.
    Which is a large part of Britains economy and the heart of London. So in so far as the economy is concerned, your still basically hard crashing out.
    Boris was chosen by the far right of his party, has pursued without apology a far right economic policy and hard brexit approach. It's literally the one thing he hasn't lied about, and people are surprised when he's setting himself to go through with exactly what he's always said he was going to do with it?

  7. #23507
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey when someone lies about everything else, you are unsure what you should believe. I don't think people are surprised though, they are just resigning themselves and reversing positions again.
    In this case you could see the truth through his main backers. If someone lies all the time, you look at who they make their bed with.

  8. #23508
    Strategy from opposition parties should be to philibuster the fuck out of Boris' Brexit bill.

    Really for no other reason than he'd then have to spend 2 weeks squirming about why he has failed (again) to 'get Brexit done'.

  9. #23509
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    Strategy from opposition parties should be to philibuster the fuck out of Boris' Brexit bill.

    Really for no other reason than he'd then have to spend 2 weeks squirming about why he has failed (again) to 'get Brexit done'.
    There’s not really scope for that on Government bills, only private members bills.

    Meanwhile all the press that call themselves centrist seem to be shocked that Boris is delivering the far right Queen’s speech he’d said he was going to deliver.


    It’s like “oh shit, the workers, environmental and constitutional protections he said he was going to tear up are getting torn up. How could we have possibly seen this coming?!”

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly starting to feel like he’s going to try to amend his own deal so much that the EU will no longer agree to it and that’ll be his route to no deal.

  10. #23510
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    There’s not really scope for that on Government bills, only private members bills.

    Meanwhile all the press that call themselves centrist seem to be shocked that Boris is delivering the far right Queen’s speech he’d said he was going to deliver.


    It’s like “oh shit, the workers, environmental and constitutional protections he said he was going to tear up are getting torn up. How could we have possibly seen this coming?!”

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly starting to feel like he’s going to try to amend his own deal so much that the EU will no longer agree to it and that’ll be his route to no deal.
    As I said 2 months ago
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Boris can just ignore his own deal and push through a hard Brexit if he has enough votes after a new GE.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #23511
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    I do love that after the "debacle" everybody is so fucking condescending in saying that the voters that moved away from labour because of how they were treated by people calling them stupid or voting against their interests and so on.

    You can't call them stupid, because then they will vote out of spite. Oh, alright, so we can't call them stupid, but comparing them to petulant children is totally a-ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  12. #23512
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    I do love that after the "debacle" everybody is so fucking condescending in saying that the voters that moved away from labour because of how they were treated by people calling them stupid or voting against their interests and so on.

    You can't call them stupid, because then they will vote out of spite. Oh, alright, so we can't call them stupid, but comparing them to petulant children is totally a-ok.
    It's all bollocks anyway. The old people, that still read and believe the printed press, voted against Labour (and their own best interests). Younger people voted in favour of trying something different, since this shit didn't work.

    And I don't believe the whole "people become Tory when they get older" is going to hold true either. That might be true if they had anything to hold onto, but the bulk of that generation are going to get old as renters working zero-hour contract jobs with fuck all chance of ever being able to retire on anything more than a pittance. They won't have anything to lose by continuing to vote for a shift to the left.

    In the meantime I'm looking forward to people realising that the Tories aren't going to help them. Like the young couple I saw interviewed saying they both had zero-hours contracts and lived in a shitty bedsit, that voted Tory and hoped that Boris would help them to get good jobs and a decent place to live. Yet if you believe the press its the Labour voters that are delusional.

    At this point I don't even have any faith that they'll come to their senses in 5 years, after Boris has fucked the entire country up with his Brexit. They'll probably still believe it's all Corbyn's fault.
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  13. #23513
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    It's all bollocks anyway. The old people, that still read and believe the printed press, voted against Labour (and their own best interests). Younger people voted in favour of trying something different, since this shit didn't work.

    And I don't believe the whole "people become Tory when they get older" is going to hold true either. That might be true if they had anything to hold onto, but the bulk of that generation are going to get old as renters working zero-hour contract jobs with fuck all chance of ever being able to retire on anything more than a pittance. They won't have anything to lose by continuing to vote for a shift to the left.

    In the meantime I'm looking forward to people realising that the Tories aren't going to help them. Like the young couple I saw interviewed saying they both had zero-hours contracts and lived in a shitty bedsit, that voted Tory and hoped that Boris would help them to get good jobs and a decent place to live. Yet if you believe the press its the Labour voters that are delusional.

    At this point I don't even have any faith that they'll come to their senses in 5 years, after Boris has fucked the entire country up with his Brexit. They'll probably still believe it's all Corbyn's fault.
    Ah, they'll find another scapegoat since the EU is not there for them anymore. Probably the US after a bad deal is reached and then after that it's whoever comes to their mind first. My bet is on teachers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  14. #23514
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    Jonathon Pie is normally very good but he was like 'how did you expect them to vote if you keep calling them stupid'. Fuck off, thats such an inconsequential reason for people voting the way they do.

  15. #23515
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Jonathon Pie is normally very good but he was like 'how did you expect them to vote if you keep calling them stupid'. Fuck off, thats such an inconsequential reason for people voting the way they do.
    It's all I've ever heard him preach on the rise of populism. It's like he hit upon this and then decided it was such a brilliant insight that he needs to repeat it in every bit of content he produces. There definitely is an element of anti-intellectualism to Brexit but that's not why the Red Wall fell, what people in Leave constituencies wanted was to have their voice heard and whilst this wasn't an ideological victory for the Conservative party in the way that Thatcher winning in 79, Leavers were happy to risk the Conservatives because there is no trust in Labour to deliver atm. Having been completely ignored, abandoned or betrayed for 40 years, that's the unsurprising part, not this attempt to insert an American narrative into our politics.

    In saying that GL to Thornberry in trying to get anyone to believe shes not exactly one of these "Elitists" lol.

  16. #23516
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanforthis View Post
    If they hadn't voted, as they didn't in 2015, that would be a fair point. But voting conservative for the working class is something else entirely. Either they are stupid or misinformed, there's no way any one can justify that decision on rational grounds, it is like a turkey voting for Christmas.
    They have, but it's been Christmas for 4 decades so at this stage so....whatever really. BoJo was the best way to deliver Brexit, JC was painted as a risk to their very jobs (the working class are aware the free market doesn't do shit for them but they are risk averse to being unemployed) alongside dozens of other critiques that don't play well with the working class (failure to lead, weak on defence, questionable "friends" and a lack of perceived patriotism) and they simply didn't think the Labour manifesto could be delivered on (or like I said before, it would see them jobless).

    This wasn't an ideological win for free market economics, but a giant fuck you to the establishment (which they believe to be Remainers). None of it's true obviously but such is people and politics. What I've bolded is where you are underplaying the enthusiasm to "Get Brexit Done", the working class in the Red Wall are not Tory converts (yet) but this election they were happy to vote for anyone who promised that.

  17. #23517
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanforthis View Post
    Oh I'm not underplaying that, I agree it was important. What I'm less clear on is whether Brexit in itself is appealing to the working class or whether the newspapers brainwashed them into thinking that. To some extent if the Tories wanted to feed children to dragons the newspapers would find a way to rationalize it. I suspect Brexit does have some appeal beyond that but there are severe dangers on focusing on policy when whatever Labour or other left-wing parties do will be misrepresented.
    There is certainly a disconnect between what people believe Brexit means, and what it's going to mean. That's what happens when you put snake-oil salesmen in charge of selling political ideas. At this point you would probably find people willing to believe that Brexit will sort out the hospitals, the housing crisis, the spread of zero-hour contracts and every other ill in this country. Add that to the people that are genuinely racist and see it as a means to get rid of foreigners and you have a potent mix.

    Of course it won't fix any of these things, and will make many of them worse. I'd be interested to see how the Tories try and spin it when Brexit does literally nothing for the number of foreign workers they are allowing into the country, just like they've done nothing whatsoever to control the parts of immigration they could for the last 9 years. I fully expect them to start counting the numbers differently so that they can point to a "fall" and the morons that read the Mail will rejoice.
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    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  18. #23518
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They had three years to find out what Brexit means. THREE YEARS.
    They’ve been told it has to happen before it can be done.

    I mean, that Brexiters have been so cloak and dagger about what they want should ring alarm bells but I guess the super secret of plan has to be super secret to get one over on the EU.

    They’ve been led to believe we really do hold all the cards and the nationalists fundamentally have to believe that. English exceptionalism is a huge factor here.

  19. #23519
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    There is certainly a disconnect between what people believe Brexit means, and what it's going to mean. That's what happens when you put snake-oil salesmen in charge of selling political ideas. At this point you would probably find people willing to believe that Brexit will sort out the hospitals, the housing crisis, the spread of zero-hour contracts and every other ill in this country. Add that to the people that are genuinely racist and see it as a means to get rid of foreigners and you have a potent mix.

    Of course it won't fix any of these things, and will make many of them worse. I'd be interested to see how the Tories try and spin it when Brexit does literally nothing for the number of foreign workers they are allowing into the country, just like they've done nothing whatsoever to control the parts of immigration they could for the last 9 years. I fully expect them to start counting the numbers differently so that they can point to a "fall" and the morons that read the Mail will rejoice.
    They already do that, they focus on just EU net immigration or even EU8 (polish etc) coming down. Its easy to spin, you just have to make sure no one notices that immigration has barely gone down in 10 years and that it was 2/3rds white europeans predominately christian and now its 2/3rds various ethnicities and religions.
    Any racist or nationalist person should have serious fears over the governments proposals to subsidise bringing more foreign doctors and nurses in, but that doesnt really fit the narrative of the evil european stealing your job and suppressing your wage!

  20. #23520
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They’ve been told it has to happen before it can be done.

    I mean, that Brexiters have been so cloak and dagger about what they want should ring alarm bells but I guess the super secret of plan has to be super secret to get one over on the EU.

    They’ve been led to believe we really do hold all the cards and the nationalists fundamentally have to believe that. English exceptionalism is a huge factor here.
    They'll find out in about a month and a week.
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