[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Huehuecoyotl]

That's - unsurprisingly - not what you originally claimed.

Quelle surprise. Pann chooses to nit-pick when he's proven wrong. I'll lay out the timeline, then wait for you to explain why an archaic meaning of one word means you think you weren't actually wrong at all.

You originally wrote:

No-one is ignoring the Scots. They had a referendum and voted to remain a part of the UK and the EU referendum was whether the UK, as a whole, would remain a member of the EU. The thing with democracy is that sometimes things just don't go your way.

To which I replied

"Vote to stay in the UK, otherwise you will be forced to leave the EU and the Spanish will stop you rejoining because of the Basque situation"

To which you replied:

I didn't forget or ignore that because it is simply not true.

That’s when I gave you a link to jog your memory.

Quote from that link:

the application and the accession to the European Union will have to be approved by all the other member states of the European Union…..We have seen Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance

So, it really isn't "not true" as you claimed. Quite the opposite. But I know you'll be hunting hard for that misplaced apostrophe that will let you claim victory in your own mind.

[Teleros]

Yes, but do not pretend that Scots did not want that.

Sure, I've never pretended otherwise.

If you will get second vote about Scotish independence, things might not go your way for obvious reasons.

Sure. I think the Scots will vote to stay in the UK, but hey, predictions are hard, especially about the future.

Ah yes, snide remarks, while ignoring the reality. Alternative universe was Johnson's 350 million bus, for which he was not held to account because your judiciary system had no spine - official lying is a punishable offence. And he was told to stop spreading bullshit.

I'm sorry, but he was held to account, what with being taken to court & all, and found to be innocent. Given that the judicial system in the UK tends towards being part of the pro-Remain / pro-EU establishment... well what can I say except he must've had a good case.

[Easo]

Sure, I've never pretended otherwise.


Sure. I think the Scots will vote to stay in the UK, but hey, predictions are hard, especially about the future.


I'm sorry, but he was held to account, what with being taken to court & all, and found to be innocent. Given that the judicial system in the UK tends towards being part of the pro-Remain / pro-EU establishment... well what can I say except he must've had a good case.

Good luck with your alternative world then.
In the meantime I will continue to laugh at you and others who think that EU is USSR in disguise, controlling a nuclear armed nation... somehow...
Just lol.

[Demolitia]

Good luck with your alternative world then.
In the meantime I will continue to laugh at you and others who think that EU is USSR in disguise, controlling a nuclear armed nation... somehow...
Just lol.

As much as I disagree with Teleros, the Court just decided that while the 350 million going to the NHS was a bullshit claim, the number was close to the actual calculated gross contribution to the EU for the UK. So if there was a political decision to divert the net contribution to the EU - plus the rebate and subsidies that were sent back to the UK - to the NHS (while utter unrealistic bullshit), it could be true. The court decided (wisely) not to go into a political argument, decided slapped him on the wrist but let him free.

[Pann]

Yes, but it also leaves certain implications. Do not misunderstand and think that Scots won't remember anything, it will certainly not help internal politics (it already doesn't). It is easier with NI, but the same applies.

What implications?

Despite the SNP now trying to imply that the support for EU membership in the 2016 referendum was a reason for Scotland voting No in 2014 it is clear from their own documentation that the Scot gov did not believe this was the case in 2014 and it would "immediately enter into negotiations with Westminster and EU member states to ensure that an independent Scotland achieves a smooth and timely transition to independent membership of the EU." allowing "it to become a member state at the point of independence." and "the only real risk to Scotland’s membership of the EU is the referendum proposed by the Prime Minister." (emphasis mine)

The fact remains that regardless of the UK's EU membership EU laws and treaties state that Scotland would have to apply to join and even if they were some able to meet the criteria for consideration (which they are years away from being able to do at present) the likelihood of EU member states welcoming a country that would be a net recipient, when it has just lost one of its largest contributors and budgets are such a contentious subject, and whose membership would create another border headache are at best slim for the time being.

I don't doubt that once the CV crisis is over the SNP will revert to type but without Westminster's consent they are going nowhere.

[Huehuecoyotl]

What implications?

Despite the SNP now trying to imply that the support for EU membership in the 2016 referendum was a reason for Scotland voting No in 2014 it is clear from their own documentation that the Scot gov did not believe this was the case in 2014 and it would "immediately enter into negotiations with Westminster and EU member states to ensure that an independent Scotland achieves a smooth and timely transition to independent membership of the EU." allowing "it to become a member state at the point of independence." and "the only real risk to Scotland’s membership of the EU is the referendum proposed by the Prime Minister." (emphasis mine)

The fact remains that regardless of the UK's EU membership EU laws and treaties state that Scotland would have to apply to join and even if they were some able to meet the criteria for consideration (which they are years away from being able to do at present) the likelihood of EU member states welcoming a country that would be a net recipient, when it has just lost one of its largest contributors and budgets are such a contentious subject, and whose membership would create another border headache are at best slim for the time being.

I don't doubt that once the CV crisis is over the SNP will revert to type but without Westminster's consent they are going nowhere.

So that's why you said my post was a lie? Because somebody said something, anybody saying the opposite of what they said didn't exist?

I should have known you'd fall back on one of your old favourites. You used it for Brexit, why not use it for the Scottish referendum as well?

This is why people get irritated with your posting habits; because you pull nonsense like this and then get prissy when people call you out for it.

[Easo]

What implications?

Despite the SNP now trying to imply that the support for EU membership in the 2016 referendum was a reason for Scotland voting No in 2014 it is clear from their own documentation that the Scot gov did not believe this was the case in 2014 and it would "immediately enter into negotiations with Westminster and EU member states to ensure that an independent Scotland achieves a smooth and timely transition to independent membership of the EU." allowing "it to become a member state at the point of independence." and "the only real risk to Scotland’s membership of the EU is the referendum proposed by the Prime Minister." (emphasis mine)

The fact remains that regardless of the UK's EU membership EU laws and treaties state that Scotland would have to apply to join and even if they were some able to meet the criteria for consideration (which they are years away from being able to do at present) the likelihood of EU member states welcoming a country that would be a net recipient, when it has just lost one of its largest contributors and budgets are such a contentious subject, and whose membership would create another border headache are at best slim for the time being.

I don't doubt that once the CV crisis is over the SNP will revert to type but without Westminster's consent they are going nowhere.

Scottland would be on the fast track, that is one. I hope that it is obvious?
Second, next EU expansion might happen around 2025 already, and the newcomers would be poor, much poorer than what Scottland in theory would be. Yet no one is saying them no. So why would anyone say no to Scottland?

My point is very simple - Scottland (and not just SNP, whole region/people/country/state/whatever you want to call them) was very much let down by the England and if you think it means no political implications or internal tensions in the future, I have nothing more to say to you.

[Pann]

Scottland would be on the fast track, that is one. I hope that it is obvious?
Second, next EU expansion might happen around 2025 already, and the newcomers would be poor, much poorer than what Scottland in theory would be. Yet no one is saying them no. So why would anyone say no to Scottland?

My point is very simple - Scottland (and not just SNP, whole region/people/country/state/whatever you want to call them) was very much let down by the England and if you think it means no political implications or internal tensions in the future, I have nothing more to say to you.

Fast track for what?

In answer to your question - Google the requirements for EU membership.

Scotland was not let down. The vote was on the UK's membership of the EU - not England's, Scotland's, Wales' or N. Ireland's - everybody knew this going into the referendum and every single voter in Scotland had just as much say in it as voters in the rest of UK.

[Mayhem]

In answer to your question - Google the requirements for EU membership.

Oh, great, you've googled them? So it should be easy for you to tell which requirements scotland doesn't meet.

[Easo]

Fast track for what?

In answer to your question - Google the requirements for EU membership.

Scotland was not let down. The vote was on the UK's membership of the EU - not England's, Scotland's, Wales' or N. Ireland's - everybody knew this going into the referendum and every single voter in Scotland had just as much say in it as voters in the rest of UK.

Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?

[Pann]

Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?

It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?

[Demolitia]

Tell me again what exactly they would be unable to meet in a reasonable time period, considering they were in EU for decades and the basic framework is in place?

Yes, it was about UK. Yet what you are trying to do is to hide behind that and ignore that Scottland voted against it. Just because overall the whole country left, DOES NOT MEAN that you can just brush Scottland's results under the rug and ignore them and hope that Scotts will have enough with that reasoning.
Seriously, do you not understand what I am saying?

If Scotland becomes independant it will first have to disentangle itself from the UK, and just by looking at what a mess just sorting out the irish border is, I can easily see 3-4 years of transition before Scottland is fully independant. Then it could apply for accession to the eu and while they meet the stability criterias, I can see quite some sticking points during the process. Border with the UK, fisheries, the euro to name a few. And it would not have the weight the UK had during those negotiations.

[Easo]

It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?

"a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

I fail to see what Scottland would lack in this regard after couple of years of work after separation (if such occurs. For the sake of discussion, let's have it). Really want to compare them to North Macedonia? Very funny.

Prodi doctrine? Again, after the secession is done, why exactly would Scottland not be able to quickly ascend the talks? The doctrine is about automatic membership, which I never said Scottland would have, just that they would be on a "fast track", as legal framework is quite literally already in the place, unless you think the theoretical Scottland would overwrite all existing laws just because to something not compatible with EU. Lol.

Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
Once more, it is just few politicians in form of SNP. SCOTTS AS A WHOLE clearly voted against Brexit.
London will either give them concessions, or there will be internal issues in the future. If you dont understand that, then, really, I have nothing more to say to you.

[Findrast]

Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
.

Yeah well you've got no leverage at all because Scotland didn't vote for independence. Basically all Scotland and the SNP has done recently is make it very easy for the Tories to win elections by radicalizing Unionists throughout the UK. Either vote for independence or quit whining about everything, no one else cares.

- - - Updated - - -

It is quite obvious that you've not looked up the requirements for consideration to become an EU member. I'm not going to do the leg work for you but I will give you a little clue - what does the EU say about a potential member state's market economy and what do you think Scotland lacks in this area? Whilst you're at it you could also Google - Prodi doctrine.

London, Leeds, Harrogate, Tunbridge Wells, etc all voted to remain as did my house none of which is relevant. Obviously the SNP will play on this to push their anti-English agenda but it is far from given that the UK leaving the EU will lead to their much prized IndyRef2 let alone a Yes victory.

Why do you think the fault lays with my understanding of your point and not it's premise?

You know something Pann? We are in fucking quarantine. No one cares about this shit apart from a tiny minority of anoraks. Yet there you are blathering on day after day about it. Droning on about this shitty race war you have going. Negotiations can't even take place right now.

[Pann]

"a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU"

I fail to see what Scottland would lack in this regard after couple of years of work after separation (if such occurs. For the sake of discussion, let's have it). Really want to compare them to North Macedonia? Very funny.

Prodi doctrine? Again, after the secession is done, why exactly would Scottland not be able to quickly ascend the talks? The doctrine is about automatic membership, which I never said Scottland would have, just that they would be on a "fast track", as legal framework is quite literally already in the place, unless you think the theoretical Scottland would overwrite all existing laws just because to something not compatible with EU. Lol.

Your fault lies with the very basic failure of understanding that a significant part of your population, concentrated in a clearly defined region with historic question of independence, was said NO by others and you seemingly think that they will just accept it like it does not matter at all. That is ignorance.
Once more, it is just few politicians in form of SNP. SCOTTS AS A WHOLE clearly voted against Brexit.
London will either give them concessions, or there will be internal issues in the future. If you dont understand that, then, really, I have nothing more to say to you.

Scotland has no currency of its own. It also has no central bank of its own in order to set up its own currency and currently runs at a deficit (higher than the rest of the UK) so therefore has no ability - without an extremely aggressive austerity program - to build the required surplus needed to setup it own currency and central bank.

The SNP's own estimates are that it would require around a decade to set all this up but according to you it would only take a couple of years?!?

You are aware that there are organisations that are paid to ask people about this kind of thing? The results of these, let's call them, polls are published in the public domain and they do not support what you are saying - the vast majority polling since the EU ref. shows that Scots are in favour of remaining part of the UK and that the results are broadly similar to those results attained before the 2016 ref.

Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain in the EU to suggest that there is now a similar amount of Scots in favour of independence is demonstrably false.

To sum where your argument falls down - Scotland would need permission from Westminster to hold a ref which it is unlikely to get for at least another four and half years, polling does not support your claims and even if Scotland was somehow able to become independent it is several years away from meeting the EU's requirements to become a member and all this is before the issues caused by Brexit and Covid.

[Findrast]

Scotland has no currency of its own. It also has no central bank of its own in order to set up its own currency and currently runs at a deficit (higher than the rest of the UK) so therefore has no ability - without an extremely aggressive austerity program - to build the required surplus needed to setup it own currency and central bank.

The SNP's own estimates are that it would require around a decade to set all this up but according to you it would only take a couple of years?!?

You are aware that there are organisations that are paid to ask people about this kind of thing? The results of these, let's call them, polls are published in the public domain and they do not support what you are saying - the vast majority polling since the EU ref. shows that Scots are in favour of remaining part of the UK and that the results are broadly similar to those results attained before the 2016 ref.

Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain in the EU to suggest that there is now a similar amount of Scots in favour of independence is demonstrably false.

To sum where your argument falls down - Scotland would need permission from Westminster to hold a ref which it is unlikely to get for at least another four and half years, polling does not support your claims and even if Scotland was somehow able to become independent it is several years away from meeting the EU's requirements to become a member and all this is before the issues caused by Brexit and Covid.

Christ, even more of this shit NOW? If the UK got hit by a fucking meteorite you'd still be droning about your pathetic irrelevant tribal disputes.

[Teleros]

You know something Pann? We are in fucking quarantine. No one cares about this shit apart from a tiny minority of anoraks. Yet there you are blathering on day after day about it. Droning on about this shitty race war you have going.

Christ, even more of this shit NOW? If the UK got hit by a fucking meteorite you'd still be droning about your pathetic irrelevant tribal disputes.

What did you expect in the Brexit mega-thread?

Negotiations can't even take place right now.

Video- and phone- calls were uninvented (disinvented?) December 2019. As were emails and the international postal system.

[Findrast]

What did you expect in the Brexit mega-thread?


Video- and phone- calls were uninvented (disinvented?) December 2019. As were emails and the international postal system.

Are you fucking insane? 30,000 people dead and you STILL want to drone on and on about your fucking tedious little race war. No one with a fucking brain cares right now.

[Findrast]

Why do people act as if the negotiations have stopped? They are ongoing

Technically perhaps but the time of the people who can actually make important decisions is very limited.

[dribbles]

Oh my, silly me thought it would be this...

Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc

but it even looks like the EU's top dog Germany have had enough of EU nonsense.

Germany's top court stunned EU leaders this week after claiming that the EU's own laws were not legally binding in Germany.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-court-ruling

Will there even be an EU left for the UK to transition out of come December!?!