[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Pann]

Oh my, silly me thought it would be this...

Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc

but it even looks like the EU's top dog Germany have had enough of EU nonsense.

Germany's top court stunned EU leaders this week after claiming that the EU's own laws were not legally binding in Germany.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-court-ruling

Will there even be an EU left for the UK to transition out of come December!?!

This is a strange case. As I understand it, when the Euro was created Germany was concerned about handing over control of its money supply and as a result the treaty never overrode BBk's obligations in German law - the ECB sets policy but its implementation is down to the national central bank - therefore is odd that the ECJ is claiming that EU law is superior in this case.

It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.

On another note negotiations are set to continue next week but unless there is major movement I cannot see anything coming of them. However it is worth noting that we were in roughly the same position last year, with the WA negotiations deadlocked, and an agreement was found at the last minute.

Also, slightly related to Brexit - the Met. has dropped its investigation of Be Leave's founder, Darren Grimes.

[Teleros]

Spain, Italy and Greece could all launch their own EU exit referendums, in the wake of bitter rifts inside the bloc

Timing is everything. If the leave movements can ride the wave of anti-EU feeling over the handling of the wuflu then they stand a much better chance of winning any referendum. I'm not sure how likely that is though, given these things take time to organise & all that. What with summer coming up, a referendum could easily be put off until autumn or later, by which time the wuflu will be basically over & things will probably be returning to normal.

It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.

My guess is that the politicians will more or less ignore the ramifications of the ruling. There's an awful lot of inertia behind continuing with the European "project", and whilst I hope @dribbles has it right, I expect things will continue on regardless of this ruling.

Couple of related links to this court case:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52542993
https://europeanlawblog.eu/2020/05/0...judicial-tango

[dribbles]

This is a strange case. As I understand it, when the Euro was created Germany was concerned about handing over control of its money supply and as a result the treaty never overrode BBk's obligations in German law - the ECB sets policy but its implementation is down to the national central bank - therefore is odd that the ECJ is claiming that EU law is superior in this case.

It is likely that BBk will be able to convince the court that this action is appropriate and nothing will come of it but if cannot the program would continue and Germany would not be able to continue to take part.

On another note negotiations are set to continue next week but unless there is major movement I cannot see anything coming of them. However it is worth noting that we were in roughly the same position last year, with the WA negotiations deadlocked, and an agreement was found at the last minute.

Also, slightly related to Brexit - the Met. has dropped its investigation of Be Leave's founder, Darren Grimes.

Well President Von der Leyen doesn't sound very happy with Germany when she threatens yesterday:-

"The final word on EU law is always spoken in Luxembourg. Nowhere else." That told them and then'she says...

“We will look into possible next steps, which may include the option of infringement proceedings”

Germany to get kicked out of the EU? We were so lucky to have had the sense and voted to leave when we did in what is now a vindication of all Brexit supporters.

Timing is everything. If the leave movements can ride the wave of anti-EU feeling over the handling of the wuflu then they stand a much better chance of winning any referendum. I'm not sure how likely that is though, given these things take time to organise & all that. What with summer coming up, a referendum could easily be put off until autumn or later, by which time the wuflu will be basically over & things will probably be returning to normal.

I think it is very telling how vocal our eurochums and remainers were prior to the Brexit referendum and as time has passed by, EU unity has crumbled over Brexit and the coronavirus, you barely hear a whimper out of them in defence of the failed EU experiment now. In a years time will anyone in the UK publicly admit to voting remain?

Meanwhile the forward looking UK stands firmly united and ready for the fantastic opportunities January 1st 2021 brings.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I think it is very telling how vocal our eurochums and remainers were prior to the Brexit referendum and as time has passed by, EU unity has crumbled over Brexit and the coronavirus, you barely hear a whimper out of them in defence of the failed EU experiment now. In a years time will anyone in the UK publicly admit to voting remain?

Meanwhile the forward looking UK stands firmly united and ready for the fantastic opportunities January 1st 2021 brings.

You don't hear us saying anything, because you didn't hear anything when we were speaking. You sat in your little unicorn enclosure shouting "LALALA" whenever inconvenient facts were presented to you. And when Brexit goes horribly, catastrophically wrong, you will be back here explaining how it is all the fault of Covid, and nothing to do with Brexit. When the rest of Europe recovers quicker and better than us, you'll still be ignoring the facts.

When the Brexit crew are running this country in the same fucked up way they've managed Covid 19, and the whole thing is collapsing round their ears, you still won't be admitting you were wrong, or taking any responsibility. You are incapable of either.

So yes, we've given up talking to you, because there is no point. We'll be back, once we actually leave (either the end of this year, or later if Boris isn't completely fucking stupid) and the implications of that leaving become unmistakeable to everyone except you. In the meantime, you Teleros and Pann can enjoy the circle-jerk of "aren't the EU terrible"..."aren't the UK going great now"...."wasn't the referendum perfectly fair" on this thread. I can always come back here for a laugh from time to time, even if presenting you with inconvenient truths is utterly pointless.

[Acidbaron]

You don't hear us saying anything, because you didn't hear anything when we were speaking. You sat in your little unicorn enclosure shouting "LALALA" whenever inconvenient facts were presented to you. And when Brexit goes horribly, catastrophically wrong, you will be back here explaining how it is all the fault of Covid, and nothing to do with Brexit. When the rest of Europe recovers quicker and better than us, you'll still be ignoring the facts.

When the Brexit crew are running this country in the same fucked up way they've managed Covid 19, and the whole thing is collapsing round their ears, you still won't be admitting you were wrong, or taking any responsibility. You are incapable of either.

So yes, we've given up talking to you, because there is no point. We'll be back, once we actually leave (either the end of this year, or later if Boris isn't completely fucking stupid) and the implications of that leaving become unmistakeable to everyone except you. In the meantime, you Teleros and Pann can enjoy the circle-jerk of "aren't the EU terrible"..."aren't the UK going great now"...."wasn't the referendum perfectly fair" on this thread. I can always come back here for a laugh from time to time, even if presenting you with inconvenient truths is utterly pointless.

Be glad that Boris managed to get sick by the virus early and that moved him in to being more logical in his handling of the virus. Or else you would be a government still very much and fully in denial that this is virus is a real thing.

I don't think anyone takes those three seriously to be honest.

[Pann]

Well President Von der Leyen doesn't sound very happy with Germany when she threatens yesterday:-

"The final word on EU law is always spoken in Luxembourg. Nowhere else." That told them and then'she says...

“We will look into possible next steps, which may include the option of infringement proceedings”

Germany to get kicked out of the EU? We were so lucky to have had the sense and voted to leave when we did in what is now a vindication of all Brexit supporters.

Germany will not be kicked out the EU. From what I can gather the German courts have not said that any wrong doing has taken place only that BBk has to justify that the ECB policy was proportional, I suspect that BBk will be able to come up with a compelling argument as to why it was proportional within the three month time frame and nothing more will come this.

I think that the butting of heads between the ECJ and the German courts over who has superiority when it comes to monetary policy will rumble on and on but it will be nothing more than a minor distraction.

[Teleros]

that moved him in to being more logical in his handling of the virus. Or else you would be a government still very much and fully in denial that this is virus is a real thing.

Sweden: allegedly 244 deaths per million due to wuflu.
UK: allegedly 384 deaths per million due to wuflu.

Germany will not be kicked out the EU.

That's just @dribbles seeing who will bite .

From what I can gather the German courts have not said that any wrong doing has taken place only that BBk has to justify that the ECB policy was proportional, I suspect that BBk will be able to come up with a compelling argument as to why it was proportional within the three month time frame and nothing more will come this.

The FCC found that by pursuing the objective of monetary policy ‘unconditionally while ignoring the economic policy effects resulting from the programme, the ECB manifestly disregards the principle of proportionality’ (para 165).

From that blog I posted. Still think your ultimate conclusion is correct though.

[Pann]

That's just @dribbles seeing who will bite .


The FCC found that by pursuing the objective of monetary policy ‘unconditionally while ignoring the economic policy effects resulting from the programme, the ECB manifestly disregards the principle of proportionality’ (para 165).

From that blog I posted. Still think your ultimate conclusion is correct though.

I didn't come down in the last shower.

Yep, that's my point BBk has thus far failed to show that the actions taken were proportional but I have little doubt that they will they will be able convince the court that they did follow the principles by the deadline.

Quite honestly this has nothing to do with Brexit and I would argue that it is not really an EU issue but a problem with the Euro.

[dribbles]

Germany will not be kicked out the EU. From what I can gather the German courts have not said that any wrong doing has taken place only that BBk has to justify that the ECB policy was proportional, I suspect that BBk will be able to come up with a compelling argument as to why it was proportional within the three month time frame and nothing more will come this.

I think that the butting of heads between the ECJ and the German courts over who has superiority when it comes to monetary policy will rumble on and on but it will be nothing more than a minor distraction.

Oh I think it is more than a minor distraction, you can see from her appalling comments that she has no accountability to the EU citizens she represents and doesn't have to stand for election by the people who pay her wages.

An excellent example of why Britain voted for brexit and displays the democratic deficit within the EU which will split it apart eventually.

Another opinion puts it better than I...

"For the first time since the European Economic Community was founded in 1957, a member state has legally asserted European bodies have overreached. Germany is not just any member state. The highest court of Europe’s biggest economy, the eurozone’s paymaster, has just declared the EU’s ultimate authority is “invalid” within German borders.'
Liam Halligan, writing in The Telegraph (May 9th)

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/20...ng-against-ecb

What the German courts have just ruled on, taking back their sovereignty from the EU, was a major motivator in the UK brexit referendum.

I reckon the EU are missing the UK boogeyman so much they are lining up Germany to take our place and are now taking pops at them and the Germans are putting the EU back back in their box and having none of it, well done to them I say. Be a lot easier just to do a DExit though, hopefully they will fingers X.

[Pann]

Oh I think it is more than a minor distraction, you can see from her appalling comments that she has no accountability to the EU citizens she represents and doesn't have to stand for election by the people who pay her wages.

An excellent example of why Britain voted for brexit and displays the democratic deficit within the EU which will split it apart eventually.

Another opinion puts it better than I...

"For the first time since the European Economic Community was founded in 1957, a member state has legally asserted European bodies have overreached. Germany is not just any member state. The highest court of Europe’s biggest economy, the eurozone’s paymaster, has just declared the EU’s ultimate authority is “invalid” within German borders.'
Liam Halligan, writing in The Telegraph (May 9th)

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/20...ng-against-ecb

What the German courts have just ruled on, taking back their sovereignty from the EU, was a major motivator in the UK brexit referendum.

I reckon the EU are missing the UK boogeyman so much they are lining up Germany to take our place and are now taking pops at them and the Germans are putting the EU back back in their box and having none of it, well done to them I say. Be a lot easier just to do a DExit though, hopefully they will fingers X.

Member states locking horns with the EC over who should have the ultimate say over how policy is implemented is nothing new.

As I understand it - I would really appreciate it if someone with some actual knowledge on the subject could shed some light on the topic but unfortunately this thread is more likely produce more of the usual FBPE type nonsense - it is up to their central bank to implement ECB policy as such BBk should follow German law when implementing policy and the argument is that the policy was implemented without following German law as to whether it was proportional or not. I suspect that BBk will be able to convince the court that the action was proportional and nothing more will come from this angle but the argument over who has the ultimate authority will rumble on which will result in, the usual, can being kicked into the long grass until the next time.

Without doubt the UK has been a scapegoat within the EU but let's not forget that we've been more than willing to point fingers and blaming someone else is something that all nations' politicians and press do whenever they get the chance.

[Drainsnarp]

As I understand it - I would really appreciate it if someone with some actual knowledge on the subject could shed some light on the topic

This could apply to everything you have ever written.

- - - Updated - - -

Sweden: allegedly 244 deaths per million due to wuflu.
UK: allegedly 384 deaths per million due to wuflu.

You said before you would start worrying about this when deaths from covid exceeded those from flu. Now they have, you have some other bullshit metric.

[Teleros]

I reckon the EU are missing the UK boogeyman so much they are lining up Germany to take our place

I doubt they can afford to TBH. Without Germany the EU is finished - I can't see the other northern European countries sticking around without Germany as a shield, and without the northern countries the EU's basically insolvent.

Without doubt the UK has been a scapegoat within the EU but let's not forget that we've been more than willing to point fingers and blaming someone else is something that all nations' politicians and press do whenever they get the chance.

Yeah, I mean it's basically a global, time-honoured tradition at this point .

[Fuiking]

I doubt they can afford to TBH. Without Germany the EU is finished - I can't see the other northern European countries sticking around without Germany as a shield, and without the northern countries the EU's basically insolvent.


Yeah, I mean it's basically a global, time-honoured tradition at this point .

Actually, its Germany who's the scapegoat.. or one of the Four Money-pinchers, preferably the Netherlands due to how Hoekstra has absolutely no tact. The UK is rarely a scapegoat.. so be silent about that.

[dribbles]

I doubt they can afford to TBH. Without Germany the EU is finished - I can't see the other northern European countries sticking around without Germany as a shield, and without the northern countries the EU's basically insolvent.


Yeah, I mean it's basically a global, time-honoured tradition at this point .

Agreed, surprised the arrogant EU don't recognise that, they kept poking the UK and got Brexit, and they don't think the same will happen when they keep nagging away like an old woman at Germany?

Actually, its Germany who's the scapegoat.. or one of the Four Money-pinchers, preferably the Netherlands due to how Hoekstra has absolutely no tact. The UK is rarely a scapegoat.. so be silent about that.

Well you Germans, Dutch and Belgies have a choice to make. Get your wallets out, pay up for the difference in lost EU contributions from the UK post Brexit and now on top, pay up again to prop up the southern EU nations following corona.

The EU is either united as one or is not, oh wait hahaha did anyone notice yesterday the successful peeling off by the UK in giving one EU member state more preferential access to UK markets than others in return for the same? I thought bilateral UK single nation deals with EU members were not allowed?

Coronavirus: What the UK and France's quarantine deal means for your holiday plans

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...plans-11986327

Seems the EU is as irrelevant as brexiteers thought. Divide and conquer in action by the perfidious ones before your very eyes eurochums...

[Acidbaron]

Actually, its Germany who's the scapegoat.. or one of the Four Money-pinchers, preferably the Netherlands due to how Hoekstra has absolutely no tact. The UK is rarely a scapegoat.. so be silent about that.

You are speaking of brexit land, where unicorns walk across rainbows. In that nation full of fairies, hobgoblins and trolls the others are always to blame!

Hardly a new thing, it is always the fault of Europe, decades of a failed policy and incompetent leadership it's always Europe and now apparently Europe is blaming them while the EU has already formed plan after plan of how to deal without the UK being there. I mean sure some people will be discontent with brexit land as they tend to care for their well being and that of their nation, while the trolls set fire to the bridges the reside under and call it liberation day.

[Gorsameth]

Agreed, surprised the arrogant EU don't recognise that, they kept poking the UK and got Brexit, and they don't think the same will happen when they keep nagging away like an old woman at Germany?



Well you Germans, Dutch and Belgies have a choice to make. Get your wallets out, pay up for the difference in lost EU contributions from the UK post Brexit and now on top, pay up again to prop up the southern EU nations following corona.

The EU is either united as one or is not, oh wait hahaha did anyone notice yesterday the successful peeling off by the UK in giving one EU member state more preferential access to UK markets than others in return for the same? I thought bilateral UK single nation deals with EU members were not allowed?

Coronavirus: What the UK and France's quarantine deal means for your holiday plans

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...plans-11986327

Seems the EU is as irrelevant as brexiteers thought. Divide and conquer in action by the perfidious ones before your very eyes eurochums...

To no one's surprise the article you linked doesn't say what you think it says.
Infact it doesn't talk about market access at all.

[Teleros]

You are speaking of brexit land, where unicorns walk across rainbows. In that nation full of fairies, hobgoblins and trolls the others are always to blame!

Hardly. The UK was never a good fit for the EU - has de Gaulle knew full well when he kept vetoing our entry - but he lost power & others let the UK in. I daresay EU integration would've gone on quicker / further if the UK had never been a member. So yes, you can probably blame the UK for holding back the EU project a fair bit.

To no one's surprise the article you linked doesn't say what you think it says.
Infact it doesn't talk about market access at all.

"Travellers coming to the UK from France will not have to be quarantined after the two countries agreed a reciprocal arrangement."

That sounds like preferential market access (ie for tourists to the UK coming from France) to me. Tourists etc coming from the Netherlands or Spain or wherever? Nope they're excluded from this, to the benefit of the French who get to tax them etc for buying stuff in France before they head to the UK.

[dribbles]

To no one's surprise the article you linked doesn't say what you think it says.
Infact it doesn't talk about market access at all.

By definition it is a preferential access to market agreement that applies to people travelling between France and the UK but not between Belgium and the UK or the Netherlands and the UK or Germany etc etc

The French have got a better reciprocal deal with access to the UK tourist markets and vice versa than anyone else in the EU. A weekend break in Paris for the British, or London for the French this summer will be quite possible in a way not open to Berlin, Barcelona, Amsterdam etc etc

It is the first crack in the "you British can't cherry pick and everything must be agreed with the EU blah blah blah nonsense"

Please will someone tweet Verhofstadt for me? I can't wait to see his reaction....Bilateral deals with the individual component EU members is obviously the way forward going above the heads of the pointless EU. It's been done once now, the genie is out of the bottle for all to see.

[Huehuecoyotl]

By definition it is a preferential access to market agreement that applies to people travelling between France and the UK but not between Belgium and the UK or the Netherlands and the UK or Germany etc etc

The French have got a better reciprocal deal with access to the UK tourist markets and vice versa than anyone else in the EU. A weekend break in Paris for the British, or London for the French this summer will be quite possible in a way not open to Berlin, Barcelona, Amsterdam etc etc

It is the first crack in the "you British can't cherry pick and everything must be agreed with the EU blah blah blah nonsense"

Please will someone tweet Verhofstadt for me? I can't wait to see his reaction....Bilateral deals with the individual component EU members is obviously the way forward going above the heads of the pointless EU. It's been done once now, the genie is out of the bottle for all to see.

Or, alternatively, it is just one more adjustment to the normally unfettered movement of people within the EU member countries (of which the UK is currently still one) as a result of the Covid 19 situation. There are a quite a few similar agreements being made among the 28 countries that make up the EU until the end of the year.

Have a read here if you'd like to educate yourself. I don't expect you to avail yourself of the offer, however.

And I wouldn't get your hopes up that any such agreement lasts beyond the end of the year, if Boris insists on crashing us out. And this kind of access would become one more thing to try and clear up in the negotiations; where you should expect to either pay for it, or give up something else like fishing rights.

Another Brexit dream shattered, another unicorn dies. Sad.

[dribbles]

Or, alternatively, it is just one more adjustment to the normally unfettered movement of people within the EU member countries (of which the UK is currently still one) as a result of the Covid 19 situation. There are a quite a few similar agreements being made among the 28 countries that make up the EU until the end of the year.

lol still not accepting we have already left. You are going for the title of "The last remainer"?

Have a read here if you'd like to educate yourself. I don't expect you to avail yourself of the offer, however.

That's just a long winded legalese opinion piece document of the EU position trying, but failing, to stay relevant. Individual nations have already decided what to do about borders without recourse to the lacking in leadership EU.

And I wouldn't get your hopes up that any such agreement lasts beyond the end of the year, if Boris insists on crashing us out. And this kind of access would become one more thing to try and clear up in the negotiations; where you should expect to either pay for it, or give up something else like fishing rights.

Nope again, the fishes and the waters and the borders are ours to deal with each individual European nation not the EU as one. The important Macron/Johnson precedent, negating the requirement for EU involvement, as agreed yesterday has been set.

Out of the scores of EU nations waiting to do individual deals with Britain to the exclusion of the EU after Brexit I'd never have put the French at the top of the list to complete one first would you? But it just shows you what can be done without EU interference. Which EU nation is next and ripe for the UK cake and eat it cherry picking process?

Another Brexit dream shattered, another unicorn dies. Sad.

Another Brexit dream realised, another delivered. Happy days.