[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Elegiac]

Think the most telling thing about Brexit is that in the EU it all went by with not much more than a shrug.

The EU and most of the world, lol. It was mainly just a spectacle to us.

Little Englanders kicking up a big fuss even when they get their way? Novel concept.

[LeGin Tufnel]

People like yourself are so disingenuous

No. One of the many things you can't accuse Huehue of is being disingenuous. It’s that simple. You either misunderstand the word or you misuse it deliberately.

So…

This will not be as bad as WTO. Read e.g., the NFU’s response https://www.nfuonline.com/news/lates...-nfu-response/. This is a relief but not a cause for celebration. Trade & travel will proceed with more friction than existed previously.

I’m delighted to read, from the horse’s mouth no less, it’s possible that “some key promises [to Brexiteers] on the influence of European institutions may have been diluted.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-ECJ-latest-vn

This is good news, as I have more faith in the ECJ - whose rulings have obliged the UK to act morally & responsibly on issues such as equal pay, holiday pay & sick leave, maternity rights, etc. - than I do the successive Tory governments who have acted solely in the interests of a wealthy minority at the expense of the poor, the environment, minorities etc.

People / posters like @sircaw talk about being “disgusted”. My disgust lies, still, at the doors of those who lied to those who voted for this.

Rees-Mogg does not and has never shared your interests. He and his ilk have played you. If you can’t see it, still, after all this time, then you deserve every difficulty & misfortune that follows.

Merry Christmas

[Mihalik]

From a reading of various sources (all mentioning that this is a 2000 page deal, so the devil is in the details), this seems to be a good deal for the UK all in all.

Much better than I think anyone realistically expected.

The major "losses" for the British side are:

1. Effectively mandatory compliance to EU regulations.

2. Rules of origin essentially mean that the only things that can be exported to the EU tariff free are things fully made in the UK or with parts from EU countries. Countries like Turkey, Norway, Japan etc don't count as EU countries despite having effective alignment, association or equivalency with the EU.

3. The practical destruction of the mutual access framework to each other's financial services industries. Future passporting and access will be regulated unilaterally on a case by case basis. Without an apparent framework for arbitration.

This essentially means the EU will set the rules for allowing access to its financial market, the UK gets no real say in it. And potentially it could mean the EU could gradually regulate the UK financial sector out of existence or access over time.

I'm sure early concessions will be made to the City. The EU typically updates it regulatory framework for financial services every couple of years, I expect each update will exclude the City more and more in favor of granting EU based banks competitive advantages.

4. Digital and Broadcasting services based out of the UK will have their access cut to the EU. The UK currently houses about 30% of all Broadcasting and streaming services serving the EU. This was a major concession to the French who have been eyeballing this market for a while.

Major losses for the British people themselves.

1. Loss of educational equivalency. This cuts both ways. As EU degrees will not longer be accepted it will be harder for the UK to source nurses, doctors, lawyers, engineers from the EU. People many British businesses and the NHS rely on. It also undercuts the draw of British universities, as degrees earned in the UK are now useless in the EU without obtaining equivalency, which can be a costly and painful process.

2. Losing access to the Erasmus program. This mostly just fucks young people (tho this is a major ideological victory for Brexiteers who want to deepen the cultural divide between the UK and the continent). So no more study abroad for a year for Britons. Also in general fewer foreigners in British schools all in all (see previous point) to narrow those horizons a bit.

3. Loss of free travel. This will be touted as a victory by Brexiteers, but this is a major cog in the wheels of young Britons working in the EU, setting up business in the EU or just generally interacting with the continent, no more teaching English in the EU, working in a bar in Marbella for a summer etc. Also, no more retirements to the sunny beaches of Spain and the cheap luxury care homes of Central and Eastern Europe, and no more buying farms in Romania and Bulgaria etc.

Major wins for the Brexiteers.

1. The simple existence of this deal. This will be framed (already is being framed) as a major victory. The deal of the century. It does in fact contain many of the political talking points that are key for Brexiteers, controlling immigration, and the UK setting itself it's own rules. Which it technically can now, those businesses that would comply with any British regulations but not EU ones would simply lose access to the EU market.

So Brexiteers can now, if they want, eat straight Bananas, as long as those Bananas don't find themselves shipped to the EU. Congratulations I guess.

2. Reduction of EU fishing quotas by 25% over 5 years, after which those quotas will be eliminated completely and will be renegotiated on a yearly basis.

That's fine and dandy, but the UK still sells almost all of its fish back into the EU (funnily for a maritime island nation, Britons don't seem to really like eating much fish). So the ability to regulated what fish can be fished will remain with the EU, if the UK wishes to continue selling its fish to the EU.

3. The UK is no longer subject to the European Court of Justice and will diverge from the European Court of Human Rights by replacing the Human Rights Act with "something". Nevertheless some basic minimum standards will still have to be maintained as part of being given access to the EU market.

[LeGin Tufnel]

/snip

Wonderful. I'm delighted. Thrilled. Over the moon.

[Gorsameth]

<Snip>

Thanks for the summery, sounds like the EU got a great deal and lost practically nothing.

[Kallisto]

Wonderful. I'm delighted. Thrilled. Over the moon.

Like I have said before. We only have to blast off one healthy leg to appease the retards instead of 2 when everyone around us was saying "Don't do it, it's stupid." except the likes of Putin and his puppets.

[Elegiac]

1. Effectively mandatory compliance to EU regulations.

Sovereignty!

[shimerra]

Where is our good boy @dribbles ? We must congratulate him on his victory of still being beholden EU rules while now having exactly zero say in what those rules are. And making it harder for Brits to travel and source talent from abroad!

[Dhrizzle]

@Mihalik are you sure you mean the European Court of Human Rights and not the European Court of Justice?

The ECHR is a non-EU body the UK has been associated with since 1956 after signing up to the European Declaration of Human Rights in 1951

[Gorsameth]

Well dribbles already proclaimed this a glorious victory so it would a little bit odd for him to now come in and say that BoJo is EU's bitch and that he betrayed the Brexit movement.

[Mihalik]

@Mihalik are you sure you mean the European Court of Human Rights and not the European Court of Justice?

The ECHR is a non-EU body the UK has been associated with since 1956 after signing up to the European Declaration of Human Rights in 1951

Thanks. Edited for clarity.

The UK is no longer subject to the European Court of Justice and will diverge from the European Court of Human Rights by replacing the Human Rights Act with "something". Nevertheless some basic minimum standards will still have to be maintained as part of being given access to the EU market.

There were various walls of text in my head when I was trying to write that.

[Forogil]

Well dribbles already proclaimed this a glorious victory so it would a little bit odd for him to now come in and say that BoJo is EU's bitch and that he betrayed the Brexit movement.

Well it would be very inconsistent.
But is consistency his strong point?

[ranzino]

Well dribbles already proclaimed this a glorious victory so it would a little bit odd for him to now come in and say that BoJo is EU's bitch and that he betrayed the Brexit movement.

but is BoJo able to sell it in parliament ?

[Forogil]

From a reading of various sources (all mentioning that this is a 2000 page deal, so the devil is in the details), this seems to be a good deal for the UK all in all.

Much better than I think anyone realistically expected.

Good summary.

Additionally I noticed that some also see it as a gain for the US compared to the uk: In the financial sector Wall Street and the City of London will now be on more equal footing in terms of access to EU; and similarly for education.

[DarkAmbient]

I would like to congratulate my country for shooting itself in the foot with such aplomb. We really showed the world what a nation can achieve when it rallies together to make a really bad decision. I would also like to thank David Cameron for enabling all this in order to stop the Conservatives losing more votes to UKIP. Finally a big hand for Boris Johnson, who so selflessly led the Brexit charge purely as a tactic for winning the Conservative leadership.

[Gorsameth]

but is BoJo able to sell it in parliament ?

I will laugh so hard if parliament shoots it down. I suppose there is no date set for the vote yet?

[Acidbaron]

It makes sense those things are considered victories as a vote for the brexit has always had a nationalist under tone if not downright xenophobic. This idea that everything British is better and nothing else from the outside is needed. So it is their right as a nation to fully double down at that and the price they pay for this is quite something.

Decreasing the value of an UK degree, one could argue it is perhaps down to try to keep talented people there by force, good luck with that however as that never works.
The fishing rights, as expected they get more back i do not expect other nations to be ever fully excluded as the EU can simply not allow said fish to be sold here.

Seat at the table for defining regulations and protecting their own interest in the biggest global trading block gone and a grim outlook for their financial sector who already had businesses looking to move during this whole debacle, so like Mihalik has said chances are the city will be made redundant over time as the EU will use this time to move things to for example Strasbourg.

This all reads like young, progressive minds get fucked. Old conservative fucks enjoy a minor victory parade, as i bet those living on UK pensions in let's say Spain will not experience much hinder from this? Haven't read much about that yet but got a gut feeling those people are left alone.

[Forogil]

3. The UK is no longer subject to the European Court of Justice and will diverge from the European Court of Human Rights by replacing the Human Rights Act with "something". Nevertheless some basic minimum standards will still have to be maintained as part of being given access to the EU market.

That win for the brexiters seems hollow.

If uk diverges from ECHR the uk's participation in security operations (assumedly for law enforcement and judicial matters) can be suspended.

So, they are free to diverge - if they don't want the EU's help. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/IP_20_2531

[Mihalik]

That win for the brexiters seems hollow.

If uk diverges from ECHR the uk's participation in security operations (assumedly for law enforcement and judicial matters) can be suspended.

So, they are free to diverge - if they don't want the EU's help. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/IP_20_2531

They already have in this deal. The only part that so far has been retained in security and judicial cooperation seems to be data sharing. Tho for example British and EU warrants or court orders are no longer mutually applicable.

[dribbles]

Where is our good boy @dribbles ? We must congratulate him on his victory of still being beholden EU rules while now having exactly zero say in what those rules are. And making it harder for Brits to travel and source talent from abroad!

It isn't too bad. We are only beholden to EU rules in so far as the EU is to UK rules regarding trade and now the EU have no say in what those UK rules are.

The ECJ will play no part. The way some people are talking is as if the referendum result has been reversed and we haven't left.

The EU won nothing, brexiteers won it all. We have left.

Erasmus is a silly point to bring up, very few British students attended sub standard EU universities. It was a one way street to world class UK universities on the cheap for the EU to educate their people in a quality way they couldn't do so for themselves. Good riddance to it.