[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Elegiac]

Also, read up on the Spanish flu

I have, and that also left a whole host of people with long term health effects that were socially and economically damaging for communities who were impacted by it. Bad comparison.

Whether or not people pay attention to it doesn't make it any less stupid to crow about needlessly incurring higher social expenses because of a pathologic inability to admit to being wrong, rofl.

[Calfredd]

Ignoring the deranged posters trying to defend any of this, why is this thread still open anyway? Brexit has happened and negotiations are no longer at a standstill.

[Mekh]

Sure will !!

It's fact that the NHS is currently the most funded its ever been in its entire history.

Thank you Brexit. Thank you Conservatives.

And thanks for your concern

Also, read up on the Spanish flu, and you'll appreciate that not a single person ever will pay any attention to that chart.

There's so much money in fact, there was enough to burn a chunk of it on a blowjob dispenser for Hancock and a decrepit "Test & Trace" system that doesn't work. Winning!

[dribbles]

UK what are you doing?

https://twitter.com/SteveLawrence_/s...s-en-corona%2F

Ahem,

Of course the UK will have more cases detected per million. We test 5 times the amount of Germany, and more than twice the amount of France and the USA. They haven't a clue how many cases they have accurately without the comprehensive testing the UK does.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

The whole planet relies on world beating superior UK testing, vaccines and genome sequencing to defeat this pandemic, you can thank us Brexiteers for that later. But never let facts get in the way of the chance to Brit bash.

[Slant]

UK what are you doing?

https://twitter.com/SteveLawrence_/s...s-en-corona%2F

They're winning the race, isn't it obvious?

*snicker*

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Ignoring the deranged posters trying to defend any of this, why is this thread still open anyway? Brexit has happened and negotiations are no longer at a standstill.

We've moved on to discussing the aftermath, which is very much still going on, and there's still the problem of Northern Ireland that's relevant. It's a general Brexit related thread at this point, but only mods can change titles.

[Mayhem]

I only think of this because I'm watching Clarkson's Farm, but he certainly isn't a lefty (right?) and he opposed brexit. Can't be the only one I'm guessing.

That was a fun thing to watch.

[Mayhem]

Ignoring the deranged posters trying to defend any of this, why is this thread still open anyway? Brexit has happened and negotiations are no longer at a standstill.

Probably because it's not over. Some shit is, but the border question remains, the service industry (at least the parts that were granted temporary equivalence) could be cut off from EU access at every minute.

[Mayhem]

More project fear propaganda?

*yawn*

Can you report anything factual instead of projected fiction?

Which of those aren't facts?

[Forogil]

UK what are you doing?

https://twitter.com/SteveLawrence_/s...s-en-corona%2F

I knew it was going badly, but I didn't realize that was bad yet.

Ahem,

Of course the UK will have more cases detected per million. We test 5 times the amount of Germany, and more than twice the amount of France and the USA. They haven't a clue how many cases they have accurately without the comprehensive testing the UK does.

WRONG.

For true numbers the idea is look at the positivity rate - 1.4% in the uk and 1.4% in Germany, and 0.8% in France; so not only is France seeing a lot fewer cases, but they likely have even a smaller percentage of undetected cases. Or basically Germany and the uk likely have similar numbers of undetected cases - it's just that positivity rate is declining in Germany and increasing together with detected cases in the uk.

A few month back the uk had 0.2% and Germany >10%.

The whole planet relies on world beating superior UK testing, vaccines and genome sequencing to defeat this pandemic,

Luckily that's false.

The genome sequencing was first done in China although the uk have sequenced a lot of their variants, and the uk-developed vaccine is generally seen as inferior to the German-developed one, from BioNTech Societas Europaea, manufactured in the western world by Pfizer (and in China by Fosum).

And the idea with test&trace is to trace cases to stop the disease from spreading - objectively the uk doesn't manage that.

It's true that the uk had some good ideas, it's just that the advantage was squandered by incompetents - who are cheered by the ignoramus.

BTW: The leader in terms on gene sequencing for covid-19 is a small island nation in Europe that isn't part of the EU: Iceland.

[Forogil]

If anyone want see the data for the uk having more confirmed cases than the EU, and look at it themselves:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...pean+Union~GBR

Source: COVID-19 Data Repository by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University

[Mayhem]

That the UK service industry could be cut off from EU access at any minute.

It's a supposition. Not a fact.

The ones that were granted temporary equivalence could be.

[Mayhem]

Evidence please.

What do you think temporary equivalence means?

"‘equivalence’ regimes for third countries (provided for in secondary legislation dealing with financial
services) that may be discretionarily activated or revoked by the Commission. "

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDa...)614495_EN.pdf

[dribbles]

If anyone want see the data for the uk having more confirmed cases than the EU, and look at it themselves:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...pean+Union~GBR

Source: COVID-19 Data Repository by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University

It's 2021, the developed world has moved on from cases as a measure due to the efficacy of the vaccines. We are really now using hospitalisations and death to track the pandemic and it is of course convenient for your Brit bashing agenda that you choose not to use this. However let's expose this deceit for all to see...

From your own source as of 2 days ago:

Deaths in the UK over 7 days = 16
Deaths in the EU over 7 days = 358

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...pean+Union~GBR

That is +20 times the number of deaths for the EU in comparison to the UK with only 7 or 8 times the population size. The EU does not come out of this smelling of roses despite your attempts to dishonestly obfuscate otherwise.

Carry on with your anti-UK nation bashing would you, I didn't think that was allowed but hey ho.

[Attackrabbit]

And watching them go in to minute detail to try and justify their political stances is hilarious for one basic fact that can't be superceded by ANY debate.....

.....that the quality of life here in the UK hasn't changed at all or even gotten better for the majority of the population.

The average citizen hasn't been affected whatsoever.

You may want to tell Dribbles and co this because they keep telling us how much better off everyone is since Brexit

[Forogil]

It's 2021, the developed world has moved on from cases as a measure due to the efficacy of the vaccines. We are really now using hospitalisations and death to track the pandemic and it is of course convenient for your Brit bashing agenda that you choose not to use this. However let's expose this deceit for all to see...

A page back you tried falsely to argue that the uk didn't have more cases due to "superior testing", now when that lie is exposed the goalpost is moved to the uk having more cases - but "it's ok".

As for hospitalizations and deaths there are some caveats: they both occur with a delay - so if cases were declining in the EU and are increasing rapidly in the uk it will take awhile before those numbers catch up. Two weeks back the uk had less than 50% of the cases they have today, and the EU about 50% more cases than today.

Added: It's the same government in charge of that handling and of brexit, and for anyone with eyes it is clear that they didn't handle this significantly better than the rest of Europe.

[Specialka]

Dribbles and co aren't the antagonists though.

Dribbles and co are responding to comments that portray uk citizens lives to be less quality in post Brexit times.

THAT'S the difference.

It should just be enough for us to say "life in the UK appears to be better for us due to Brexit", without a single person coming back and saying "You're wrong....."

The EU people who reply here are literally trying to tell the UK citizens "we know better than you about your life".

Slant for example is highly guilty of this.

He's German.

Why does he know about my life better than me?

Answer : he doesn't.

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Based on charts created by the Government of Peru?

Ok Roger, ooohhhkayyyy.

You are kinda right, UK was already a shitty country to leave in even before Brexit (exception if you were rich).

[dribbles]

You may want to tell Dribbles and co this because they keep telling us how much better off everyone is since Brexit

The only people in the UK who have not benefitted from Brexit are those who began it in 2016 with nothing. The guy living in a cardboard box under London Bridge prior to Brexit and is still there now has gained and lost nothing from Brexit. Other than thanks to the generosity of Tory Brexiteers there are now more food banks for those hobos sustenance. For those people Brexit has been broadly neutral.

Anyone who had assets, the majority, prior to Brexit is far better off today than before the referendum.

The tweet was deceiving, as the graph shows averages, but the data does show that the UK seems to be trying to go into a 3rd wave while in the rest of the EU the number of cases is dropping sharply.

Third wave of what? Cases of infection? If there are a million people who get infected and no one is hospitalised/dies it doesn't matter.

There is no third wave of deaths/hospitalisations in Britain from an increasingly irrelevant disease, thanks to the vaccines. Probably why our Boris has decreed the pandemic is over in Brexit Britain come what may on July 19th. You can thank the nimbleness that Brexit allowed the UK for that.

[Mayhem]

And?

Any agreement every in the history of all agreements have cease clauses in them.

Every single mobile phone user here in the UK has right to cancel their agreements within 14 days for any reason they wish to.

You can't equate that to "it's fact that everybody will do so at any minute".

What is in fact happening is you are trying really, really, really hard to beat the project fear dead horse.

Supposition, my dear friend, not fact.

It's not an agreement. There are no two signatories, it's given by the EU or revoked by the EU. The UK has no say whatsoever.

[Slant]

It's 2021, the developed world has moved on from cases as a measure due to the efficacy of the vaccines. We are really now using hospitalisations and death to track the pandemic and it is of course convenient for your Brit bashing agenda that you choose not to use this. However let's expose this deceit for all to see...

From your own source as of 2 days ago:

Deaths in the UK over 7 days = 16
Deaths in the EU over 7 days = 358

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...pean+Union~GBR

That is +20 times the number of deaths for the EU in comparison to the UK with only 7 or 8 times the population size. The EU does not come out of this smelling of roses despite your attempts to dishonestly obfuscate otherwise.

Carry on with your anti-UK nation bashing would you, I didn't think that was allowed but hey ho.

Just so everyone understands, this is what a propagandist does. He moves goalposts to whatever statistic seems to suit him best at the moment. When he's shown a statistic that showcases his side in a negative light, he'll immediately go to any random statistics website and play around with the buttons until there's one statistic that shows his side in a good light. He'll then proceed to tell you that it's the only statistic that matters, try to imply some intellectual superiority "we live in modern times, we only go by this statistics", making baseless claims about its validity and then proceed to "interpret" that data for you, to make sure that you really only see his side.

Dribbles has in the past used all metrics for Covid. Whatever looked best that day. He's not interested in validity of the data. He's not interested in what's the "right data" (hint: all of them are, depending on the context you're looking for). He's just interested in "one-upping" you in a debate. That's why he's happily trading deaths and tragic fates of real people for internet scorepoints. He doesn't give a rats ass about the issue. He has no opinion, he's the ultimate opportunist. He decided for a side in a discussion and he's been trolling the fuck out of this forum for 5 years now, with impunity pretty much.

Note that I haven't even refuted anything he said just now, I'm just pointing out what he does and how he works. This isn't meant to discredit what he said, this is aimed at all the lurkers that may be around. This is an excellent showcase of what "populism" really is. It's not taking what you want and doing it. Populism is aimed at CHANGING what you want (to what they want) and making you believe it's what you wanted all along. It's propaganda. It's manipulative. And the only way to counter it is critical thinking.

That's what he fears, criticial thinking. He and his ilk can't deal with it. Once you start asking questions, they're going to move on to another aspect and drown you in statistics and claims (some may be true, some may be completely false) to distract you from your questions. Don't let that happen. Stick to your questions, move on when YOU are satisfied that they have been answered. And when you do, VERIFY whatever he said. Look it up, use different sources, cross read.

Since we have this wonderful showcase, some immediate questions come up:

What is "the developed world", when have they moved on? Who declared that? Why are virtually all statistics websites showing statistics that he claimed we all have moved on from? There's a glaring discrepancy between what he claims and what we can verify by looking it up ourselves. It takes me one minute to find a metric ton of statistics that he claims are outdated types of data. Because... everyone likes to waste time on useless numbers? Doesn't seem likely, does it? Interesting...

Moving on, he claims we're Brit bashing and only pick one statistics for that purpose. He's accusing us of manipulating your perception. Isn't that what I just accused him of? Yes, yes it is. But you see, if he can convince you that EVERYONE is doing it, you'll at least start doubting everyone and not just him. The point here is to discredit the idea that one side could be correct. In the face of defeat, a draw is better than nothing, eh? He emphasizes this in talking about a deceit that we're supposedly committing. Same strategy, if you can't win the argument, make sure that you get a draw by having neutral third parties not believe anyone.

Of course, and this is the difference... you can verify everything on your own. You will note that when we post statistics, we tend to just let the data stand on its own with a small snarky comment aimed at Dribbles. The assumption is that intelligent people are able to pick up the data and interpret it themselves. There's no hidden agenda, look at the numbers, make your own conclusions. The difference is that Dribbles has to interpret the data for you. He and propagandists can't let you think for yourself, coming up with all kinds of random conclusions, they have to tell you what those numbers mean. Now, sometimes that is necessary, especially when diving deep into statistics and understanding complex matters. But he does it in what seems to be a fairly straight forward number... absolute number of deaths in the past 7 days. There's not a whole lot to interpret about that, and yet he tells you what it MEANS. Translated: He's telling you what he wants you to think about it. I'm not saying you should disbelieve him, I'm saying look at the numbers and the context and take your own conclusions. Never just believe anything someone tells you. The whole thing about "would I lie to you?" Yeah, they would. Or they might just be genuinely wrong. Always verify and think for yourself.

And of course there's the repeated nation-bashing accusation in the hopes of getting a lucky shot with the sorry lot of moderators here. At the very least, he's trying to score victim points with neutral readers. Of course that's disregarding that nobody here is UK bashing as much as we're Brexiteer bashing, if you can even call it that. Honestly, we're just picking up random bits and pieces we see in the news that are related to Brexit. Not really our fault that 90% of the coverage is a variation of "Huh, this didn't quite turn out as well as we were promised".

Anyway, let's talk about him outright manipulating:

He's telling us that it's 20 times the number of deaths in comparison to the UK and then tells us about the population difference 7 or 8 times. That's a very, very roundabout way of saying that per capita is more interesting than absolute numbers due to the sheer population difference.

(Side note: It's interesting that he uses the sheer size difference in population to support his argument here, when he is well known for pretending that the UK has the bigger leverage in all negotiations with the EU. This is basically him doing a 180° on that argument and admitting that the EU is MUCH BIGGER because it suits his argument here... he's not intelligent enough to realise that he just cancelled ~5 years of pretending the EU and UK are equals with that statement... we won't tell him, it's more fun that way... shhhh)

Let's go to that website:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...pean+Union~GBR

Note how all he had to do was check this one box to turn the data into a per capita overview? Curious why he didn't do that and instead went on to obfuscate your perception with some weird number games to illustrate the difference. Remember what he said initially? "20 times the number of deaths..." and then goes on to mumble something about population difference. The hope is that you hear 20 times the number of deaths and are shocked emotionally. Sounds like a big number eh? Whatever happens after that isn't so important, who wants to figure out the 7 or 8 times the population bullshit and what that means for our little argument anyway, eh?

Why he includes it? Oh, to be technically correct. It's the only reason why, he's just trying to preempt any sort of "but EU is bigger" counter-argument. Nothing more, don't pay attention to that, it's only meant for people like me that pick up on the weak spots in his bullshit trolls immediately.



Now, we ticked that box and what do we see for the EU and the UK?





That's right. A per capita difference of about 4 times as much. Doesn't quite sound as dramatic as the 20 times, does it? That's what he does. That's what propagandists do. They don't technically lie, they just... make it sound more dramatic than it actually is.

The point of all of this? Make sure you verify everything. Make your own conclucions. Be wary if someone goes beyond explaining a statistic into interpreting it for you. EXPLAINING is not INTERPRETATION. Keep that in mind. If someone has no idea about statistics, telling him "per capita" means it's a ratio based on the population size is an explanation. Telling him it's the only valid statistic for this case and therefore claims X and Y are true is an interpretation.

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More UK nation bashing I see !!

"One rule for thee and not for me" being exercised by the lefty crowd here.

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Precisely why we wanted to leave.

We don't want EU overlords.

Dear neutral reader,

This is amusing, cos this burner account doesn't realise what a massive own-goal he just scored. Dribbles is a seasoned troll, I'd be surprised if he had fallen into that trap...

He said "one rule of thee and not for me" and also "Precisely why we wanted to leave, We don't want EU overlords." in connection to the EU having the ability to cancel the equivalency of certain third nation service fields, i.e. remove access ot the EU internal market unilaterally.

I assume he's a newbie to the discussion, because anyone having followed the topic for a while knows that... if the UK had stayed in the EU, the EU wouldn't be able to just go ahead and remove access to the internal market. What he just did is an argument to REMAIN in the EU, not to leave. Especially the bit about EU overlords, since the UK would be part of the "overlord" cabal and would have a say in the matter in any case.

It's the UK leaving the EU that gave the EU the natural, logical ability to regulate if UK service industries retain access to the internal market. It's common sense that if no other third nation has an entitled right to access the internal market, the UK that just left wouldn't either. That it does have access right now is already a privilege granted by the EU.

This is funny, thought I'd mention it.

Cos, yes. Of course the rules for EU members are different from the rules for third nations. That's the whole fucking point of the project. LOL

[Mayhem]

Precisely why we wanted to leave.

We don't want EU overlords.

Got it, you wanted to have no say in the matter, well done, you've certainly got what you've asked for.