Nightborne - pros and cons of joining the race

[ravenmoon]

Well Chronicles mentions that the people of Suramar with Elisande in lead decided not to help the rebellious forces who marched to Zin Azshari and they decided to create a shield around Suramar and only protect themselves. They turned their backs on the others for their own selfish reasons.

That wasn't a betrayal though, what Elisande did 10,000 years later by surrendering to Gul'dan, that was betrayal. in the WotA, it was a difference of opinion. Elisande didn't think the others stood a chance of beating the legion, and the best route to survival was shield up and turtle in, Tyrande felt there was only one chance for everyone to survive, that was to go all out. Both were right and both were wrong. But that was not a betrayal. If i were in that war, and I came from Suramar, I would leave my children and babes there under protection - I would rate their chances of survival higher than the impossible task assaulting Zin'Azshari was.

I would still go, what choice was there, even if it was a 0.001 chance, I would have to try even if i didn't believe i would survive or succeed, but even if there was a small chance, I had to. If i didn't bleieve anyone would survive - would i have taken my children with me also? No, because i would believe in the city at least they'd live a little longer if i failed, and if I succeeded, I would see them again and return.

So while Tyrande would have been understandbly upset the powerful arcane order didn't lend their might to the attack, realistically those who couldn't make the trip, (youngsters, children, injured) i think quite a few night elves would have had some hope and thought it okay at least they could defend, good luck to you.

Tyrande is proud remember, and these are her people, she will judge them at a higher standard than she will judge others, but make no mistake, she would be able to tell that of all the highborne groups, the Suramar magi behaved the best - (the zin'azshari ones actually opened the portal, even though somee repented and joined in the end, the Eldre'thalas highborne left it till the very last minute to move into action, watched for ages while demons over-ran other cities. - and they didn't have the excuse of a shield, they just staye d in their city for nearly 10k years, watching everyone and not lifting a finger to help - now i'm sure when that story is told, we willfind out that some like Estulan and Evenshade did try, but Totheldrinn's demon crazed grip was too much. or howeer they write it. What remains is that the Suramar elves contributed the most to the effort s in the War of the LEgion, those that stayed behind in Suramar and those that actually went on to fwin in Zin Azshari.

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the whole point of night elves in war3 that they are xenophobic and racist bastards, they can chose any way to deal with invaders, even the worst ways possible, but don't expect to the invaders to act kind and leave those morons kill then with no resistance


if you diplomacy is war, you get war back too

If they at least wait to the orcs attack first maybe the elves would have reason

funny, the suramar night elves are much like that, the Elisande supporters, still night elves in war and in peace are like two differnet peoples, thing about wow, is we never saw taht WC3 edge properly, and i think the new developers didn't remember the nelves oof wc3

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Do you understand what kind of setting Warcraft is?

The whole point of the night elves, at least circa Wacraft 3, was that they were savage. Grom not only notices that ("They look like elves, but are far too tall, and far too savage"), but respects that, because if it was the other way around, if it were anyone threading into orc territory, specially Warsong territory, you'd be attacked the same way.

To the night elves, what they saw was a bunch of armed trespassers desecrating their sacred forest. In Kalimdor, pretty much any native would know that the forest was night elf territory. After 10,000 years isolated, used to expell anyone who breached into their lands, they saw no reason to treat orcs differently.

Diplomacy works differently on such settings. You can't judge their actions by modern standards.

you're right about not jduging btheir actions by modern standards, nor their behaviour by any known culture, they are quite enigmatic, showing so many juxtapositions, and appear to contradict, but don't, this was one of the most attractive things about them in the beginning, they were unique in their category, the blizzard version of the dark elves was by far the best twist on the fantasy trope yet. And at first they really felt like ancient powerful people who had mastered the arcane, left it and mastered nature, honing htier martial skillls, quite the complete package, yet not easy to understand as you epect such mysteries surrounding those far older and wiser than you.

And the savage description you give, is one of those "appear to be contradictions", because night elves are not savage at all, from the start their history of a very high civilzation is laid out before you, and their presentation outside battle is one that speaks of great knowledge/wisdom and sophistaction - yet their surroundings are simple and basic - and when they fight, they fight with a savagery.

THis is what Grom comments on, the way they fight, he doesn't know about their lifestyle, background or anything like that to commen t on their culture at all, he is introduced to gthem through combat,and notices the ferocity they fight with is almost savage 0 they don't hang around or pause or delay, and they go all ape-shit on you. That is the enigma, and you don't solve it till you pay clos attention to them.

Which leads you to realize that is only how they are in combat (they're not savage in everything, just the intesnsity and ferocity they tear into you at), this was to highlight how powerful and dangerous they were in WC3, they were very dangerous and presented as the solution to the demons they defeated. So they were quite powerful, then they got nerfed and retconned - instead of fighting the legion over 250 years, it happens in under a yaer, with Rhonin and Krasus teaching them how to fight and wield magic.. LOL.

[Utigarde]

and its exactly what got them bent over the barrel by the orcs. Because simple things like diplomacy are too hard for the night elves. Which brings us back to handling the nightborne relations like handling fine china with a baseball bat.



He understands night elves perfectly well, they don't understand how to de-escelate a conflict and always manage to do possible the worst possible thing when it comes to relations, something that only started to get beaten out off them with the death of Cenarius.

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Conssidering blizzard said they don't like neutral races, nothing will ever be on both sides again.

Not sure where you got neutral from anything I said. What I said was exactly the opposite of neutral.

[Rhlor]

What do you call killing each other for shits and giggles because some idiots who never even liked the Illidari told them too?

in the lore the DH are of the same faction the illidari and do not fight among them in the lore

[Mace]

There are two paths they can take the nightborne down which can be pretty good,

Option 1: Unification
the peace path is one which was talked aboutt earlier in a bit more detail, where the nightborne act as a bridge between elves, bringing them closer to peace, by the broken isles becoming a separate non-alliance night elven kingdom ruled from Suramar by a council consisting of Thalyssra, Ly'leth Lunastre, Vale Walker Farodin, Prince Farondis, Jarod Shadowsong, the Val'sharah head priestess from Suramar. THe concept here is they are like a soft reset for the night elves taking over from the allinace group as the main driving force of night elf lore.

The Kalimdor night elves, are still as is, led by Tyrande and Malfurion, but they take back seat wiith that pair continuing to do their solo roles. this brokenisle night elf kingdom is all about proetecint the world, looking after the younger races and restoring all the good things the night elves have had over their 15,000 year history (not just the nature ones, but the arcane and divine ones too). They also seek to unite the elves as well. And whiles most new blood elf lore won't touch on this, night elf lore would always show some high/blood elf interactions too. You no longer think of night elves as allinace only, because the Suramar kingdom put some nightborne night elves in the horde too, which is why the horde have playable night elves, but only as nightborne.. They will involve the night elven kindgom of Suramar lore for horde players. Whiles the kingdom will have natural ties with the kalimdor night elves, but not be defined by them.. some nightborne choose to help out with the lalliance too, attracted to helping out the Shen'dralar highborne or explore the nature magic wonders wrought in that region. They are put there by THalyssra/FArondis and their council to keep an eye on the alliance and horde, keep them foused on bigger problems when those arise rather than fighting each other, and stopping either side form turning into world threatning monsters (like Arthas and Garrosh became.).

Option 2
There is an alternate scenario though, which is going to divide the nightborne, with a majority going one way and a smaller minority heading the other. It happens in such a way, that the two groups really dont like each other, which fits into the horde/alliance theme well. Here is how it could go down.


A divided Nightborne/Night Elven Peoples
This also goes along the suspicion that the SUramar night elves/nightborne elves would be available on both horde and alliance. They'd be distinguished physically as follows: on horde they'd be the Legion nightborne modelled ears (upturned at the tip), and on alliance, they will have their ears back to night elven ones (which some nightborne have), making them more easily identifiable as night elven nightborne, The exile story explanation may work well here, with the explanation for the ears being the night elven allied onesunder THalyssra had the arcan'dor fruit who's healing was reflected in the ears reverting to normal. The group that joined the horde were the loyalists to Elisande who only turned after her Echo decided to help out. They were spared execution because of that, but were exiled and not given the fruit. The divine energies in the sunwell keep them from deteriorating into withered now exiled away from home.

It is fitting this way seeing the High elves are exiled away from their main city, while the rest of the race is on the horde. Like wise, being night elven, the nightborne and SUramar remain with the night elves, but an exile group is with the horde. It also fits th story as Elisande's loyalists are like the blood elves in TBC, who went bad first, but came back to our side at Shattrath. Whereas Thalyssra and the rebels that won back the city are like the night elves who never compromised to the Legion in the first place.

THere is also 2 distinct philosophies, between Elisnde's followers and Thalyssra's, even when they are fighting on the same side. THalyssra would see the nightborne return as defenders, Elisande's group would see the Kaldorei Empire rule the world again as conquerors - and although they won't be all out evil, they are more in line with the horde.

It also is fitting that the best bit of the Kaldorei empire, Suramar city, remains/returns to the night elven whole and not split across a faction war, seeing most of them are from there anyway, it would feel wrong for it to go to the horde as well, denying a key step up in growth and development to the night elves of the alliance. (even though it is also night elves on the horde) - it's not good for ALL the alliance night elves to be the poor ones, and the horde night elves to have all the fancy stuff. is what i'm saying. Can you imagine- Tyrande, Jarod, Maiev, MAlfruion and Illidan's home city (and most of the 10k year old night elves) now all horde? it just feels wrong.

I also feel the nightwell will be fired up again. They have options for the story though, Thalyssra and the alliance nightborne have proven they are masters of magic by being willing to let go of the nightwell, so when circumstance forces them to power it up again, they are trusted to be guardians of it, having being the beneficiaries of the near death experience going overboard caused to their people.Anything from the city losing power, to needing power to fight Azshara. However I feel the be best story will stem from the different philsophies of the two groups of nightborne. Let me explain

How the Nightwell Gets Fired up again: - (a potential scenario)
A group of nightborne, consisting mostly of the former Elisande loyalists feel its a massive mistake to power down the nightwell and their people should be seizing the power to do good in the world. THalyssra and those controlling the city disagree, we're better off - however the long time taken to supply enough Arcan'dorfruit and the pain of enduring without the nightwell whie waiting for the fruit, combinedwith this biewpoint causes the dissenters to organize and force the hand of Thalyssra and the nightborne council. With some of their new found blood elven friends who agree with this view point and unable to resist the prospect of a powerful nightwell aiding all the causes they may have, they work together to force this and get control of the power (for the good of all nightborne, the city, elfkind and the world (they convince the idea being, once they have control, Thalyssra and the others would have no choice but to fall in line and would be thanking them them.

With the tomb of Sargeras sealed, the exiles used their contacts to re-acquire the eye of aman'thul and power up the nightwell, however in the rush and in-experience of their new allies with this level of magic caused it not to be done properly,lost control,erratic power, needed the expertise of Thalyssra and the rest of the nightborne in the city as well as Tyrande and others who were re-connecting with old friends/fmaily, they rallied, stablised the power flow in a combination of all the disciplines (arcane, nature and an act of Elune) and prevent an eruptive explosion that could potentially have destroyed the broken isles. The nightwell is stablised , but now it would be too risky to drain the nightwell as the power was now suffuising the entire isles and no one wants another sundering type event. With the attempted coup botched, the group is hunted downfor arrest and execution (most of them were Elisande loyalists, and that was the last straw, cannot be trusted), however they escape with their blood elven accomplices, a fairly large group (like 20-30% of the city, including all those Loyalists who were recovering from their defeat at our hands during the legion invasion. working with the blood elves also tarnishes them to Thalysrra and this is how we get the nightborne split into two groups not liking each other and allied with peoples that are at conflict with one another. So like the high elves were exiled for breaking the rules, so too are the conspirator nightborne for their actions.

Malfurion wades into the debate by pointing out that maybe it would work for the best, they will need its power to fight Azshara and the tide of darkness of the void he warned about in the EMerald Nightmare, and Tyrande notes the blessing of the goddess on the nightborne who seem to have proven they have true mastery over magic by being able to willingly give it up. They recognise the city is whole and of one mind with all those who sought magic for power gone, They make a pact together to use the magic to restore the health and vitality of the elven people and Azeroth itself and to use it to fight evil threats like the void and any who would seek power as means to enslave, destroy or corrupt. It tis a momenotous occassion, because it is the first time in over10,000 years,all3disciplines have united in full agreement and to accomplish one purpose.

Meanwhile the exiled group make it Silvermoon, they are bonded in their dislieke for the other group and dismayed at thier failiure to seize power to destroy their enemiesandbenefit thier lives - although this is exactly what the night elves use the nightwell and their magic for, the motivations and drive behind it come from two very different ways of thinking.


Conclusion:
Key points of why it is best for it to go down this way.

1. It brings the night elf world to have relevance to both horde and alliane. The night elven world, is HUGE, and has it's own everything, it could literally be a 3rd faction of itself, a separate parallel world as it has all the elements the normal horde/alliance world has with its own type set, like the night version to the day. It should not be linked only to the alliance. - This is why it can be a good thing to have the nightborne to also be on the horde

2.Both options advance the elves on both sides, the first (the peace option) gives them a more nneutral stance, redirecting the main thrust of the night elves from being associated with teh alliance, and proviiding some playable relief like a pseudo neutral faction players can subscribe to its philsophy even though they are part of a faction - they are part of the factions bringing peace and bringing elves togehter.

3. On the faction cconflict side, it keeps the elves in the spirit of the 2-sides, keeping them separate and opposed to each other, while at the same time allowing both sides to have interest in both elven groups. With the high elves on the allinace, as exiles from their home, the alliance players are invested in the Thalassian group's story which is the blood elves and high elves, but they do it from a divided war bases. Likewise with a group of nightborne exiles on the horde, the horde get a night elven group with them in the form of the nightborne, there will be highborne and moonguard along with them, but only the nightborne models will be playable.

4. There is a 3rd option and this is perfectly fine too. The night elf story remains an alliance thing with night elves and nightborne purely ocnerend with that world, no harm in an exile group of nightborne joining up with the horde, but they are not playable. Just like the high elves are aren't playable on the alliance. IF blizzard make high elves playable, they will be so as a sub-fation on the horde, and separate form the alliance high elves, like wise with the nightborne exxiles, nightborne would be playable fully on the allinace in the night elf sub-race option, and while a faction align themselves to the horde (just like the silver covenant high elves with the alliance), they remain unplayable

[Friendlyimmolation]

Man I hate the idea of more elves but even I find it sickening that you would try to say that only the fel touched nightborne would end up joining the Horde, what exactly is your excuse for the nightborne to suddenly lose all contact with the sin'dorei? And you have pretty much managed to completely show no understanding of the blood elves, they wouldn't welcome Elisande loyalists.

[Futhark]

Night Elf sub race

Game explanation: new skin for NE

Lore explanation: none

thank you goodnight

[Zulkhan]

And you have pretty much managed to completely show no understanding of the blood elves, they wouldn't welcome Elisande loyalists.

Elisande mocked Night, High and Blood Elves alike and all of these opposed her equally. Ironically enough, while there's a clear difference in attitude between Night and Blood Elves towards the Nightborne rebels, there was no difference whatsoever when it came to deal with Elisande's regime.

[Mace]

Man I hate the idea of more elves but even I find it sickening that you would try to say that only the fel touched nightborne would end up joining the Horde, what exactly is your excuse for the nightborne to suddenly lose all contact with the sin'dorei? And you have pretty much managed to completely show no understanding of the blood elves, they wouldn't welcome Elisande loyalists.

that's not what i'm saying. The fel-touched nightborne were loyal to the LEGION, not to Elisande. There is a clear distinction. Elisande loyalists are normal nightborne, Legion loyalists are all fel-touched. We kill all the fel-touched.

so if you're thinking Elisande loyalists I'm referring to here are all fel-touched, you'd be wrong, none of them are. If you read on a little bit more, in this scenario, the group is not exclusively former loyalists either, it's just that nearly all the loyalists are in this group. The group is characterised not by former loyalty to Elisande but by their view point that the nightwell should be fired up and the magic put to swift use. Their mindset is more the conquer/power mindset. When it becomes clear Thalyssra and the others won't budge on that, they take matters into their own hands, thier hope is to demonstrate the nightwell back up is a good thing (they erroneously think that the nightwell is drained out of fear brought on by Tyrande's influence over Thalyssra, the blood elves tell them (in a move similar to how the night elves told the humans) aboout the kaldorei's irrational (in their opinion) fear of using magic after the sundering, biasing the group as they point out all the wasted opportunities, based on bad info and superstition, that led to the ridicuolous act of expulsion, and that this is happening all over again with the night well. It consolidates those who were wavering over to the coup'de tar side, however most nightborne view the night elf story differently to the blood elves, they view it as a noble sacrifice to give up the one thing they know all night elves loved, the arcane, to safeguard the world, and not even risk the legion returning. They see eit was un-necessary as suramar easily shielded the magical signature of the city and the nightwell from the nether, - but in a round about way they find it rather awe inspiring, that these guys who lived and walked togehter witht hem, were actually able to give up all this for so long, and not only that, without any arcane magic, pull another vicotry overthe legion.

It is one of the things that is going to characterise the difference between nightborne and blood elves - nightborne do not reject their night elven heritage or nature, they are fiercely proud of it and it is a part of their core, they have enormous respect for those who lef the city to defend it and the world i.e. Tyrande/Malfurion -Lord Ravencrests army they had thought all perished 10k years ago, but now discover they haven't. The nightborne present an alternative way of looking at the night elves post-sunderinglife - so far we only got scorn and criticsm over it from the high/blood elves - and that is because of the exilel BUt we get a surprisigin opposite from the nightborne. The arcane is clearly better in their eyes, and no, they won't be following that path themselves, but they fuly respect their kin for pulling it off knowing that they were just asabout magic as they were.

This knowledge of the blood elven incitement/propagandan helps drive a wedge between the alliance nightbornegroup and the blood elves too when the details come out

[Friendlyimmolation]

that's not what i'm saying. The fel-touched nightborne were loyal to the LEGION, not to Elisande. There is a clear distinction. Elisande loyalists are normal nightborne, Legion loyalists are all fel-touched. We kill all the fel-touched.

so if you're thinking Elisande loyalists I'm referring to here are all fel-touched, you'd be wrong, none of them are. If you read on a little bit more, in this scenario, the group is not exclusively former loyalists either, it's just that nearly all the loyalists are in this group. The group is characterised not by former loyalty to Elisande but by their view point that the nightwell should be fired up and the magic put to swift use. Their mindset is more the conquer/power mindset. When it becomes clear Thalyssra and the others won't budge on that, they take matters into their own hands, thier hope is to demonstrate the nightwell back up is a good thing (they erroneously think that the nightwell is drained out of fear brought on by Tyrande's influence over Thalyssra, the blood elves tell them (in a move similar to how the night elves told the humans) aboout the kaldorei's irrational (in their opinion) fear of using magic after the sundering, biasing the group as they point out all the wasted opportunities, based on bad info and superstition, that led to the ridicuolous act of expulsion, and that this is happening all over again with the night well. It consolidates those who were wavering over to the coup'de tar side, however most nightborne view the night elf story differently to the blood elves, they view it as a noble sacrifice to give up the one thing they know all night elves loved, the arcane, to safeguard the world, and not even risk the legion returning. They see eit was un-necessary as suramar easily shielded the magical signature of the city and the nightwell from the nether, - but in a round about way they find it rather awe inspiring, that these guys who lived and walked togehter witht hem, were actually able to give up all this for so long, and not only that, without any arcane magic, pull another vicotry overthe legion.

It is one of the things that is going to characterise the difference between nightborne and blood elves - nightborne do not reject their night elven heritage or nature, they are fiercely proud of it and it is a part of their core, they have enormous respect for those who lef the city to defend it and the world i.e. Tyrande/Malfurion -Lord Ravencrests army they had thought all perished 10k years ago, but now discover they haven't. The nightborne present an alternative way of looking at the night elves post-sunderinglife - so far we only got scorn and criticsm over it from the high/blood elves - and that is because of the exilel BUt we get a surprisigin opposite from the nightborne. The arcane is clearly better in their eyes, and no, they won't be following that path themselves, but they fuly respect their kin for pulling it off knowing that they were just asabout magic as they were.

This knowledge of the blood elven incitement/propagandan helps drive a wedge between the alliance nightbornegroup and the blood elves too when the details come out

And I assume every named Nightborne so far takes a stand against this group? And that for whatever reason the blood elves actively shoot themselves in the foot during this whole scenario is not more than just your desire that nightborne that decide to tell Tyrande to screw off are in a minority, despite the fact that as we saw the nightborne were more receptive to the Blood elves?

[DeicideUH]

I can understand those who think nightborne won't be playable and will remain neutral. I admit it's a strong possibility despite all my wishes for them to be the blood elf sub-race.

But I can't understand those who think nightborne are desperate to join the night elves for some happy reunion that would make the race whole. That's the opposite of what has been shown in-game.

Face it: night elf/nightborne interactions so far (except neutral night elf NPCs who are not part of the main Kaldorei society) have been cold at best. They treat each other as allies out of necessity. Meanwhile, blood elf/nightborne interactions are way more friendly and understanding.

[ravenmoon]

I can understand those who think nightborne won't be playable and will remain neutral. I admit it's a strong possibility despite all my wishes for them to be the blood elf sub-race.

But I can't understand those who think nightborne are desperate to join the night elves for some happy reunion that would make the race whole. That's the opposite of what has been shown in-game.

Face it: night elf/nightborne interactions so far (except neutral night elf NPCs who are not part of the main Kaldorei society) have been cold at best. They treat each other as allies out of necessity. Meanwhile, blood elf/nightborne interactions are way more friendly and understanding.

the problem with mapping nightborne/night elf relations depends on whether you are referring to the entire race or the alliance group. Most of the time I talk about this, i'm referring to the entire race, notnecessarily the alliance group. the issue is most people just lump them all in one category. If you play horde and badly want the nightborne to join the blood elves, you may not be picking up on the other cues that point the other way.

I conclude that players who are thinking of the nightborne as something different and apart from the night elves as a whole and somehow more blood elf as opposed to not night elf have got it all wrong. Now this may not be you. Nightborne on the horde will be the horde getting night elves. There is no distancing of the nightborne from their kaldorei base. This is what most of my parallels and points address. They do not address nightborne associating with the alliance quite as much except in the obvious points (like alliance night elves being from Suramar)

It goes down to how blizzard want to handle this.. neutral night elven kingdom apart from alliance and horde with only a bunch of die hard fans (choosing to join the allinace) and some exiles joining the horde - but the bulk remaining neutral in a broken isle night elf kingdom ruled from Suramar by Thalyssra.

Alternatively they divide them, generate drama that causes some nightborne to go horde, and the rest go alliance - the drama is enough to get them unfriendly or even hostile with each other, and the nightborne just add to their new allies' conflict deepening the allinace/horde conflict with the elves.

now I use to like the second option, but i'm getting kinda bored with the fighting, and prefer the first option because its different. There is the danger the neutral main body will become obsolete and only attention given to the groups in the horde/alliance, bu ti hope not, the nightborne, suramar and broken isles are a very key part to the night elven story especially if you want it to be an amazing tale of recovery - after 10,000 years penance.

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And I assume every named Nightborne so far takes a stand against this group? And that for whatever reason the blood elves actively shoot themselves in the foot during this whole scenario is not more than just your desire that nightborne that decide to tell Tyrande to screw off are in a minority, despite the fact that as we saw the nightborne were more receptive to the Blood elves?

you can't take suggestions or potential scenarios with no flexibility, i won't rubbish this just because i didn't like the choice of elves that sided with the blood elves, I'd simply suggest that Silgryn and some other key nightborne join that group in another potential scenario. The scenario is the sort of behaviour that characterises the blood elves, night elves and shows the differences of philsophy that have kept the elves divided - because purusing them can have extreme consequences, they take it seriously.

But like all scenarios, it's just that . a potential scenario.

[Mace]

I can understand those who think nightborne won't be playable and will remain neutral. I admit it's a strong possibility despite all my wishes for them to be the blood elf sub-race.
.

funny, i admit all my wishes for them to be the night elven subrace on the alliance alongside the night elves rather than the night elven sub-race on the horde. But, I'm okay with them being on the horde, as long as it's not only on the horde, or as long as the main development thrust of the nightborne stays relevant to the night elves.

They are the kaldorei empire elven group, and they are the part of the night elves many fans of the night elves have really wanted to see and return. To then take them and deny them access to the night elves - would be like cutting the choice parts away from the group or ending the potential of their fairy tale ending. Especially after them going from crap to crap in wow expansion after expansion, this is the first and most attractive thing about the night elves since WC3.

Now, Ravenmoon is right that being on the horde doesn't have to change their interaction and impact on the night elven world. They are the arcane night elves, and being on the horde won't change that, and he has a point that it would bring the night elf story/world to the horde - but I fear that unless they go to the horde as a new playable race, the impact would end up being worse if they are only available on the horde as a subrace.

As a new playable race, at least it firmly puts a driving edge of night elf lore on the horde side, as by virtue of their race being night elven we will get developments specifially related to them and the night elf world. As a sub-race on the horde only, they'll be gobbled up by the blood elves, because the blood elves are hugely popular and alongside the high elves already have their own lore world which is part of the warcraft main story alongside humans, forsaken, orcs and dwarves. That world bears relevannce to both factions historically as the high elves and blood elves were all on the alliance first. So putting nightborne only on the horde and leaving the alliance night elves without any notieceable arcane development will force the story in the direction where as a sub-race, they'll have some minor interactions and accompany blood elves, but rarely will focus go to them.

The exact opposite would happen on the night elven side, and can also happen with them completely neutral, with them on both sides, or with them only on the alliance, because they can bring that really exciting dark elf arcane fantasy to the night elves who don't really have that atm....face it, the highborne mage addition's impact in 4.0 was very weak, and in light of the nightborne could be viewed as a stepping stone to the grand portrayal of the Kaldorei empire we see in the nightborne and Suramar.

Thalyssra's actions, behaviour are quite in alignement with the night elves shared values, she fits right in as the leader of the arcane night elven order. Don't forget night elven orders of priest and druids have nothing to do with each other, they don't work together, they live separate lives, they might as well be separate peoples they are that segregated, except that they share common ideals about evil, standing up to it, uncompromising, and as far as magic is concerned, it's not magic usage that is the problem, (certainly not anymore) it's reckless abusive usage, again something Thalyssra who's just been brought back into balance by the Arcan'dor fruit would also be a champion of and in agreement with.

It's for the development of night elf lore, and how it really brings a shinier edge to it that was seriously lacking. The group was looking very shabby and unattractive, boring and monotonous until the nightborne injected new life by bringing a new side, demon hunters also helped (even though they are half blood elf), and Wardens was also good to see, as were the Azsuna highborne, but none of them compare or would have been exciting as seeing Suramar, and a proper display of night elven arcane magic in the nightborne citizens there.

While being on the horde doesn't stop us from having that aspect of the night elves available to us, only on the horde will set it at conflict and war with the Kalimdor night elves - I'd be very sad to see potential reuinion and a chance for a new dawn for the night elves denied because blizzard lumped the whole group on the horde (probably literally because some fans wow'd by the fancy arcane power and looks, want it only with the blood elves for whom it holds far less significance - cos it looked nice and they wanted it). It's positive impact on the night elf world and making it a lot more exciting again should not be lost. It's acceptable if some of them go on the horde, and i use to be a big supporter of the peace option. In fact, i'm the one who originally presented that side, but I guess i have less hope realistically for that to happen and have gravitated tot he more usual blizzard viewpoint which would be to have some conflict. Who knows though, they may choose the peace option.

I'm hoping all the interest in the nightborne will raise the night elven profile and have blizzard continue to make developments in the night elf world, rather than just leave it and forget about it.

[Beloren]

There are two paths they can take the nightborne down which can be pretty good,

Option 1: Unification
the peace path is one which was talked aboutt earlier in a bit more detail, where the nightborne act as a bridge between elves, bringing them closer to peace, by the broken isles becoming a separate non-alliance night elven kingdom ruled from Suramar by a council consisting of Thalyssra, Ly'leth Lunastre, Vale Walker Farodin, Prince Farondis, Jarod Shadowsong, the Val'sharah head priestess from Suramar. THe concept here is they are like a soft reset for the night elves taking over from the allinace group as the main driving force of night elf lore.

The Kalimdor night elves, are still as is, led by Tyrande and Malfurion, but they take back seat wiith that pair continuing to do their solo roles. this brokenisle night elf kingdom is all about proetecint the world, looking after the younger races and restoring all the good things the night elves have had over their 15,000 year history (not just the nature ones, but the arcane and divine ones too). They also seek to unite the elves as well. And whiles most new blood elf lore won't touch on this, night elf lore would always show some high/blood elf interactions too. You no longer think of night elves as allinace only, because the Suramar kingdom put some nightborne night elves in the horde too, which is why the horde have playable night elves, but only as nightborne.. They will involve the night elven kindgom of Suramar lore for horde players. Whiles the kingdom will have natural ties with the kalimdor night elves, but not be defined by them.. some nightborne choose to help out with the lalliance too, attracted to helping out the Shen'dralar highborne or explore the nature magic wonders wrought in that region. They are put there by THalyssra/FArondis and their council to keep an eye on the alliance and horde, keep them foused on bigger problems when those arise rather than fighting each other, and stopping either side form turning into world threatning monsters (like Arthas and Garrosh became.).

Option 2
There is an alternate scenario though, which is going to divide the nightborne, with a majority going one way and a smaller minority heading the other. It happens in such a way, that the two groups really dont like each other, which fits into the horde/alliance theme well. Here is how it could go down.


A divided Nightborne/Night Elven Peoples
This also goes along the suspicion that the SUramar night elves/nightborne elves would be available on both horde and alliance. They'd be distinguished physically as follows: on horde they'd be the Legion nightborne modelled ears (upturned at the tip), and on alliance, they will have their ears back to night elven ones (which some nightborne have), making them more easily identifiable as night elven nightborne, The exile story explanation may work well here, with the explanation for the ears being the night elven allied onesunder THalyssra had the arcan'dor fruit who's healing was reflected in the ears reverting to normal. The group that joined the horde were the loyalists to Elisande who only turned after her Echo decided to help out. They were spared execution because of that, but were exiled and not given the fruit. The divine energies in the sunwell keep them from deteriorating into withered now exiled away from home.

It is fitting this way seeing the High elves are exiled away from their main city, while the rest of the race is on the horde. Like wise, being night elven, the nightborne and SUramar remain with the night elves, but an exile group is with the horde. It also fits th story as Elisande's loyalists are like the blood elves in TBC, who went bad first, but came back to our side at Shattrath. Whereas Thalyssra and the rebels that won back the city are like the night elves who never compromised to the Legion in the first place.

THere is also 2 distinct philosophies, between Elisnde's followers and Thalyssra's, even when they are fighting on the same side. THalyssra would see the nightborne return as defenders, Elisande's group would see the Kaldorei Empire rule the world again as conquerors - and although they won't be all out evil, they are more in line with the horde.

It also is fitting that the best bit of the Kaldorei empire, Suramar city, remains/returns to the night elven whole and not split across a faction war, seeing most of them are from there anyway, it would feel wrong for it to go to the horde as well, denying a key step up in growth and development to the night elves of the alliance. (even though it is also night elves on the horde) - it's not good for ALL the alliance night elves to be the poor ones, and the horde night elves to have all the fancy stuff. is what i'm saying. Can you imagine- Tyrande, Jarod, Maiev, MAlfruion and Illidan's home city (and most of the 10k year old night elves) now all horde? it just feels wrong.

I also feel the nightwell will be fired up again. They have options for the story though, Thalyssra and the alliance nightborne have proven they are masters of magic by being willing to let go of the nightwell, so when circumstance forces them to power it up again, they are trusted to be guardians of it, having being the beneficiaries of the near death experience going overboard caused to their people.Anything from the city losing power, to needing power to fight Azshara. However I feel the be best story will stem from the different philsophies of the two groups of nightborne. Let me explain

How the Nightwell Gets Fired up again: - (a potential scenario)
A group of nightborne, consisting mostly of the former Elisande loyalists feel its a massive mistake to power down the nightwell and their people should be seizing the power to do good in the world. THalyssra and those controlling the city disagree, we're better off - however the long time taken to supply enough Arcan'dorfruit and the pain of enduring without the nightwell whie waiting for the fruit, combinedwith this biewpoint causes the dissenters to organize and force the hand of Thalyssra and the nightborne council. With some of their new found blood elven friends who agree with this view point and unable to resist the prospect of a powerful nightwell aiding all the causes they may have, they work together to force this and get control of the power (for the good of all nightborne, the city, elfkind and the world (they convince the idea being, once they have control, Thalyssra and the others would have no choice but to fall in line and would be thanking them them.

With the tomb of Sargeras sealed, the exiles used their contacts to re-acquire the eye of aman'thul and power up the nightwell, however in the rush and in-experience of their new allies with this level of magic caused it not to be done properly,lost control,erratic power, needed the expertise of Thalyssra and the rest of the nightborne in the city as well as Tyrande and others who were re-connecting with old friends/fmaily, they rallied, stablised the power flow in a combination of all the disciplines (arcane, nature and an act of Elune) and prevent an eruptive explosion that could potentially have destroyed the broken isles. The nightwell is stablised , but now it would be too risky to drain the nightwell as the power was now suffuising the entire isles and no one wants another sundering type event. With the attempted coup botched, the group is hunted downfor arrest and execution (most of them were Elisande loyalists, and that was the last straw, cannot be trusted), however they escape with their blood elven accomplices, a fairly large group (like 20-30% of the city, including all those Loyalists who were recovering from their defeat at our hands during the legion invasion. working with the blood elves also tarnishes them to Thalysrra and this is how we get the nightborne split into two groups not liking each other and allied with peoples that are at conflict with one another. So like the high elves were exiled for breaking the rules, so too are the conspirator nightborne for their actions.

Malfurion wades into the debate by pointing out that maybe it would work for the best, they will need its power to fight Azshara and the tide of darkness of the void he warned about in the EMerald Nightmare, and Tyrande notes the blessing of the goddess on the nightborne who seem to have proven they have true mastery over magic by being able to willingly give it up. They recognise the city is whole and of one mind with all those who sought magic for power gone, They make a pact together to use the magic to restore the health and vitality of the elven people and Azeroth itself and to use it to fight evil threats like the void and any who would seek power as means to enslave, destroy or corrupt. It tis a momenotous occassion, because it is the first time in over10,000 years,all3disciplines have united in full agreement and to accomplish one purpose.

Meanwhile the exiled group make it Silvermoon, they are bonded in their dislieke for the other group and dismayed at thier failiure to seize power to destroy their enemiesandbenefit thier lives - although this is exactly what the night elves use the nightwell and their magic for, the motivations and drive behind it come from two very different ways of thinking.


Conclusion:
Key points of why it is best for it to go down this way.

1. It brings the night elf world to have relevance to both horde and alliane. The night elven world, is HUGE, and has it's own everything, it could literally be a 3rd faction of itself, a separate parallel world as it has all the elements the normal horde/alliance world has with its own type set, like the night version to the day. It should not be linked only to the alliance. - This is why it can be a good thing to have the nightborne to also be on the horde

2.Both options advance the elves on both sides, the first (the peace option) gives them a more nneutral stance, redirecting the main thrust of the night elves from being associated with teh alliance, and proviiding some playable relief like a pseudo neutral faction players can subscribe to its philsophy even though they are part of a faction - they are part of the factions bringing peace and bringing elves togehter.

3. On the faction cconflict side, it keeps the elves in the spirit of the 2-sides, keeping them separate and opposed to each other, while at the same time allowing both sides to have interest in both elven groups. With the high elves on the allinace, as exiles from their home, the alliance players are invested in the Thalassian group's story which is the blood elves and high elves, but they do it from a divided war bases. Likewise with a group of nightborne exiles on the horde, the horde get a night elven group with them in the form of the nightborne, there will be highborne and moonguard along with them, but only the nightborne models will be playable.

4. There is a 3rd option and this is perfectly fine too. The night elf story remains an alliance thing with night elves and nightborne purely ocnerend with that world, no harm in an exile group of nightborne joining up with the horde, but they are not playable. Just like the high elves are aren't playable on the alliance. IF blizzard make high elves playable, they will be so as a sub-fation on the horde, and separate form the alliance high elves, like wise with the nightborne exxiles, nightborne would be playable fully on the allinace in the night elf sub-race option, and while a faction align themselves to the horde (just like the silver covenant high elves with the alliance), they remain unplayable

I really like this, the conflict option 2 one. it's warcraft not peace craft and i like that while blood elves get access to nightborne, it is not a major part of their lore, i really don't want night elf lore to start domnating blood elf lore, sucking the bthem into their world, but i like that it gives horde players who like the night elves some in-roads there aiding and extending the night lore without disrupting the tensions too much. It's in the current vein of wawrcraft, and fits it better it hink.

I'd like to see the elven groups become hte major players and rightful magic supremos, it's okay that a few humans can come close, but you shouldn't be making comparisons between Dalaran to Suramar or Silvermoon when it comes to magic. Even though Dalaran can be like some sort of international meeting point, it's not there yet.

Also i think elven dominance in this area is only possible with the night elves on board too, we can't give iet all to the blood leves, or there wil be no competition that forces an improvement. Witht he nightborne on the alilnace with the nighte lves, it puts the blood elves as underdogs in magic for the first time in a long time- I actually think this is good, because everyone loves the under dog. Nightborne contain all the arrogance of the kaldorei empire and I think they will serve to make blood elves be more likeable.

Sure you will have likeable nightborne like Thalyssra, not all will be dicks, but htey'll be mostly dicks. And in front of the blood lves gives the blood elves an opportunity to shine as they catch up and show that hey you may be bigger /stronger/more nkowledgeable magic wise, but it's not going to do you any good, cos we're better.

Whiles humiliating the night elves felt a bit good in Azshara/Desolace,, it was actually quite bad, because it really undermines the elves, and overall is rubbishy in how unrelaistic it appears even in that setting, you need the two groups to be much closer, and it's okay if one is slightly ahead of the other in magic,, not a huge crater gap in between like it was in cataclysm.

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I can understand those who think nightborne won't be playable and will remain neutral. I admit it's a strong possibility despite all my wishes for them to be the blood elf sub-race.

But I can't understand those who think nightborne are desperate to join the night elves for some happy reunion that would make the race whole. That's the opposite of what has been shown in-game.

Face it: night elf/nightborne interactions so far (except neutral night elf NPCs who are not part of the main Kaldorei society) have been cold at best. They treat each other as allies out of necessity. Meanwhile, blood elf/nightborne interactions are way more friendly and understanding.

I can see the biggest appeal of the nightborne to the alliance night elves is to give them that high arcane wielding dark elf fantasy - thought long gone with the empire, but now re-appeared with the nightborne. If you put yourselves in their shoes, i'ts like a part of htem has been missing and this is it returned. I can see night elf fans who'd love this dimension.

However it is similar to the blood elves (this is what blood elf culture is like), and that's the biggest point against nightborne being a blood elf thing - it adds nothing. This is why it makes more sense to have them with the night elves, it is more interesting and it at least bringing something new (or very very old) to them. Something different to that table, which face it, it doesn't to the blood elf side - save for indulgence. Blood elves are the highborne playable group, so now having the nightborne with their night elven kind who offer a richer more interesting and varied night elf group, now that will make things really interesting.

I much prefer the conflict scenario than the peace scenario for sure as well.

[Nurvus]

The faction wars have reached an unprecedented level of stupidity.

After MoP, it no longer makes sense for faction restrictions to exist.
I'm not saying factions shouldn't fight each other, as we see they still do.
It simply no longer makes sense for PLAYERS to be restricted to factions.

Beyond a certain level players should simply be able to play/group/fight with/against whoever they want.

Imagine any race being present in the same Guild.
Imagine no longer being pushed by your friends into not playing your favorite race just because they play a different "faction".

[Beloren]

The faction wars have reached an unprecedented level of stupidity.

After MoP, it no longer makes sense for faction restrictions to exist.
I'm not saying factions shouldn't fight each other, as we see they still do.
It simply no longer makes sense for PLAYERS to be restricted to factions.

Beyond a certain level players should simply be able to play/group/fight with/against whoever they want.

Imagine any race being present in the same Guild.
Imagine no longer being pushed by your friends into not playing your favorite race just because they play a different "faction".

to be honest, i just want the sun people one side and the night moon people on the other.

I don't like that high elves are on the allinace, but i'ts okay as long as it is a small group with the main group on the faction. Same with the nightborne, i prefer it if they are all on one side with the night group - but again i don't mind if a small group were on the other faction, just as long as the main nightborne body with the other night elf moon/star group - that way the story maintains some integrity and distinction whilest offering or allowing for some variation/flavor

[Nurvus]

to be honest, i just want the sun people one side and the night moon people on the other.

I don't like that high elves are on the allinace, but i'ts okay as long as it is a small group with the main group on the faction. Same with the nightborne, i prefer it if they are all on one side with the night group - but again i don't mind if a small group were on the other faction, just as long as the main nightborne body with the other night elf moon/star group - that way the story maintains some integrity and distinction whilest offering or allowing for some variation/flavor

I don't think you got my point.
Storywise, the faction leaders and whatnot should still do their thing.
What does not make sense, is the player being restricted by it. It made sense until MoP ended. Stopped making sense when WoD started. Got obnoxious when Legion started. Will be absolutely retarded when "World of Warcraft: JaFW" starts.

[Deleted]

I still think the best course is giving high elves as the night elf subrace, and nightborne as the blood elf subrace. Gives Alliance the belf skeleton, and Horde the nelf skeleton. Plus, theyre both highly requested playable races.

I could live with that.

[SNIP] I can see the biggest appeal of the nightborne to the alliance night elves is to give them that high arcane wielding dark elf fantasy - thought long gone with the empire, but now re-appeared with the nightborne. If you put yourselves in their shoes, i'ts like a part of htem has been missing and this is it returned. I can see night elf fans who'd love this dimension. [SNIP]

Well, technically this was already fulfilled when the NE race got their arcane casters back a.k.a. the mage class, coming back from the Shendralar exile.

[Beloren]

Well, technically this was already fulfilled when the NE race got their arcane casters back a.k.a. the mage class, coming back from the Shendralar exile.

that was more like the taster, the appetiser. Pristine Suramar and the nightborne is the real deal, the- Kaldorei empire returned, not a ruined dire maul.. AS you said, we all know 4.0 to be just a change to give night elves access to a mage class, Suramar and the nightborne seems to be the lore changing proper to bring the arcane empire of the night elves back.

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I don't think you got my point.
Storywise, the faction leaders and whatnot should still do their thing.
What does not make sense, is the player being restricted by it. It made sense until MoP ended. Stopped making sense when WoD started. Got obnoxious when Legion started. Will be absolutely retarded when "World of Warcraft: JaFW" starts.

ah i get it, so the npcs are still in the factions, and the factions still around just that the players aren't bound by them.

[Nurvus]

ah i get it, so the npcs are still in the factions, and the factions still around just that the players aren't bound by them.

Exactly.
PvP would be more similar to Lineage 2, free for all.

[Beloren]

Exactly.
PvP would be more similar to Lineage 2, free for all.

I wonder if they'd ever be bold enough to do that.. they seem to go out of their way to separate people into one of the two factions, even eroded racial identity and uniqueness in favor of all encompassing faction... which i don't think was ever good.

warcraft shoudl have felt more like 13 factions vying for either survial or supremacy or to be left alone - and only in some world war like scenario banding together into the two factions. i.e. horde/alliance exist, but its very lose, it's more down to the individual races - except for a big event like a WC4, where hey are forced to fight together.