Time to increase gap in raid loot?

[Charge me Doctor]

Oh but you see LFR can titanforge to the same level as mythic gear. Guess you missed that part.

You also can be struck by a thunderbolt, or a train can fall onto your head. It's kinda same chances if you ask me

[Lucetia]

Well, no. The issue we've had with mythic since NH is that you go in with AT LEAST the ilvl of gear you get from it. There's many guilds that would hardly be considered trash who are rocking 940 average ilvls still working on KJ - who drops 940 (10 ilvls above the rest of the instance). It's not uncommon for people to kill their first mythic boss with near 0 chance at upgrade across the group before titanforging.

I can't speak for any guild that has been clearing it as no one knows the internals but them, but if a vast majority are only able to clear it with a high ilvl then that means a few different things. None of these things are related to what level loot drops. If they were only able to clear it after all the nerfs (ie needing crucible, etc) then it might be more towards the group isn't as experienced as they thought they were. It also could mean, and a big possibility, that the content is overtuned for it's intended ilvl. If you are struggling to clear the end boss and need to go over his ilvl that generally points more to an overtunement or guild not as good as it is. Neither of these are affected by what ilvl drops. From what I hear about it being Tomb of Soakness it's probably more the encounter and a topic for another day.

This means the effort:reward ratio becomes skewed. The challenge is not proportional to other challenges where you will statistically get the same gear - and generally with a lower time investment too. The only time this isn't entirely true is raid exclusive tier/trinkets where your loot attempts on lower difficulties are capped no matter how efficient you make your time spent.

No, what this means and pointed out above is that something isn't tuned appropriately here. Either the gear in all the difficulties need to be bumped up to match the difficulty or things need to be tuned (brought down) to be more in line with what is given to required ratio.

Mythic has always rewarded the best gear because that's the intention - it's part of why it's something to aim for. To even suggest that the challenge is the only reward is extremely naive. The game is based on the gear treadmill (or a replacement where no gear is used, but those are edge cases within the game) and currently mythic raiding leaves the question as to what it's offering people who are by blizzards design running on this treadmill.

Mythic has always given the best gear because that's what people cried out needed to happen. High end guilds want challenge. Blizzard wanted to present them the challenge of Mythic mode. People believe that no one will do it because there is no incentive so they gave higher gear. Now you still have higher gear and need less luck to have it titanforge and get a higher level. Lower difficulties need a lot of luck to get it to titanforge that high to start with.

The main issue I keep seeing though is that Mythic is extremely challenging and the gear it gives isn't rewarding enough. That alone tells us that it's perhaps too hard for most people and need to be undertuned some after a bit of time being out. It could also be the reality that most are finally realizing that their guild isn't as great as they thought they were and relied on other nerfs in the past (nerfs seem to go out less this expansion than past ones)

I wish they would take TFing out, but it looks like they want to keep it in.

Simple solution to cater to both sides:

Each difficulties gear should only be able to TF up to the base ilvl of the next difficulty.


So for ToS it would look something like this:
Normal drops at 900 and can only TF up to 915
Heroic drops at 915 and can only TF up to 930
Mythic drops at 930 and can TF up to the tiers max, in this case being 955.
Of course you would need to adjust for KJ's loot.

It would give more incentive to do the harder content if you want the better gear.
And people that enjoy the TF system would still enjoy seeing their loot proc to a higher ilvl then what they would normally get.

Except that removes the incentive to do those things. Why do normal mode when all you can get is heroic loot? Might as well do heroic. Why continue to clear normal mode with your raid to gear them up so you can do heroic when you have no loot to look forward to? You can make up an excuse why not to be there. Why do world quests if they give crap for rewards. You remove titanforging and then you start to remove reasons why you should do content. Raiding has been in a decline for awhile in past expansions. This expansion actually gives reasons to go back and do content.

People argue that raids like LFR Emerald Nightmare shouldn't give ToS level loot. The odds of titanforging a 835 to 930 loot is pretty outstanding. People look at the few outliers and consider it the norm and that it's bad for everything. Certain streamers also voice their opinion on it because it shatters their reality/snowflakeness/etc so everyone takes what they say as gospel.

[MrExcelion]

I saw it mentioned in the last QA. The lack of gear upgrades from mythic has been noted, and we'll see something probably next xpac, but not this one, and even then it might be something not so obvious if its a tweak to drop/titanforge rates. I think an extra item should drop from mythic bosses than it currently does, that's a lot of it

I know most xpacs tend to flip the old systems on end though so we'll see what happens. Some posters have talked about mythic tomb just being too hard, and that's definitely true. Blizz did say Argus won't be as hard as KJ was (which is easy to say when you google that initial method video). Mistress, Avatar, and KJ were beyond most of what I've done in the past difficulty wise, and we'll see KJ final kill counts end up extraordinarily low unless theres a major nerf in the next week or so. 5 month tiers also have a lot to do with that too, just not a lot of time. I think 5 months is better suited to a 7 or 8 boss tier, but ideally all raid tiers should be around 10 bosses imo

Blizzards doing a good job making the first part of mythic very accessible though, so guilds can call themselves mythic guilds, getting their feet wet. Hopefully the next round of server merges come soon for the low/med pop realms because getting 20 can be quite the barrier (I raid mythic on both a high and low pop realm)

edit: Just to put myself on record, don't think a gap in raid loot is the solution, just scribbling down random thoughts as I tend to do on MMOC

[Kaesebrezen]

As how it should be. Hardest content in a game should award the best gear. It is how MMOs have driven gear progression system since forever, and WoW was no exception during its early days. You wanted the best gear? You did the high end raids for it. Bad players and casuals drooled over people who had Naxx40 gear.

People drooled over "raiders", not over your gear. Raiding in Classic and BC was something only very few people got to do, so when you saw one, you drooled over them. The gear just identified a raider. Mythic set design, title and mount/pet rewards also still identify a mythic raider, just noone is drooling over that anymore.

People back then raided to clear the hardest content, not for the best gear.
People now raid for the best gear, not to clear the hardest content. (as several comments in this thread made clear)

Lastly you can also compare the endgame raiders back then to now: Back then the only real nerf was gear you got on one single lockout each week. They deserverd their gear.

Now you can split mythic raiders into "pre nerf", "pre second nerf", "pre new traits in x.5", in addition to "weekly titanforge gearupgrades-nerfs". Unless you cleared mythic early on, you can be god damn sure that your mythic clear is partially a result of titanforging. Do you honestly think that everyone of these mythic raiders deserves the same rewards?

[Cheze]

the complaining about titanforging is dumb and continues to be dumb

why are you worried about the gear somebody else has? The reward for doing mythic raids is the challenge, the rankings, etc. not being able to lord your ilvl over somebody else

[Schattenlied]

stats have already inflated much faster this expansion than they have in any expansion past, and you want them to inflate FASTER? Are you high?

[Deleted]

How I would have done ToS (item levels and war/titan forging).

1. 890 -> 905 (LFR)
2. 905 -> 920 (Normal)
3. 920 -> 935 (Heroic)
4. 935 -> 955 (Mythic)

Difficulty -> Base item level -> Capped item level
(The weekly chest regardless of difficulty should TF up to 955 though).

Heroic Dungeon -> 870 -> 905
Mythic +00 -> 875 -> 905
Mythic +01 -> 880 -> 905
Mythic +02 -> 885 -> 905
Mythic +03 -> 890 -> 905
Mythic +04 -> 895 -> 905
Mythic +05 -> 900 -> 920
Mythic +06 -> 905 -> 920
Mythic +07 -> 910 -> 920
Mythic +08 -> 915 -> 935
Mythic +09 -> 920 -> 935
Mythic +10 -> 925 -> 935

WQ -> 870 -> 905

1. It would boost up Mythic raiding participation due to it giving substantially better loot rewards (as it should).
2. It would remove the redundancy to run lower difficulties just to get lucky for that 955 TF loot (less frustration).

[clevin]

The reason is because Titanforging is actually good for the game the way it is. You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher. It gives you incentives to do other parts of the content rather than one area. If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing. Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

No, TF as currently implemented is bad for the game. "You should be able to do any piece of content and have the chance of being rewarded with something higher." is where you go wrong - you should not be getting loot that's as good as current high level raid loot from content that's much easier (i.e. normal NH etc). That breaks the link between content difficulty and reward level which is never a good idea. You either have people reluctant to move on to newer content or you are incentivizing them to do old content that they normally would be done with on the off chance that they might get gear.

Now, if TF was only able to proc, say, 15-20 levels higher? Much less of an issue because then you would have no chance of normal NH stuff proccing to be as good as H ToS gear.

If you know it's going to cap out at X lvl then you'll get to a point where you aren't wanting to do it because it gives you nothing.

And that's fine. You should be incentivized to move on, not farm old content forever.

Titanforging helps give parts of the game an incentive to still be active. If World Quests has a cap then after you are X ilvl you wouldn't even consider doing them. That in turns starts to make WQ useless and then that part of the content is gone. This continue to applies to other areas of the game.

And World Quests in the old zones should be devalued. Why should cracking nuts in Valsharah reward 915 gear? Again, do more current content (i.e. quests in Argus).

You undercut your argument badly with this:

Honestly, raiding Mythic isn't suppose to be about "getting uber gears". Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge and attempting to overcome it. People need to get off their ideas of "I need high ilvl gear because I do this, get away from me you little ants" type ideas.

Mythic raiders shouldn't be motivated by gear but casuals should be? What???

[Lucetia]

you should not be getting loot that's as good as current high level raid loot from content that's much easier (i.e. normal NH etc). The breaks the link between content difficulty and reward level which is never a good idea.

Except you don't. You have a chance. That chance isn't always guaranteed. People make that chance out to be bigger than it really is because they see a few people around them get it.

Now, if TF was only able to proc, say, 15-20 levels higher? Much less of an issue because then you would have no chance of normal NH stuff proccing to be as good as H ToS gear.

Sure, let's devalue content and make it pointless to run because the players love having a reason to run old content for no incentive. Blizzard also enjoys losing customers because they have nothing to do for awhile because people leave when they see no rewards available.

And that's fine. You should be incentivized to move on, not farm old content forever.

Except sometimes you can't move on because the rest of the raid is undergeared, etc. Why waste your time when the rest of the raid still needs things if you have no chance of seeing an upgrade.

And World Quests in the old zones should be devalued. Why should cracking nuts in Valsharah reward 915 gear?

You must be playing a different game. Most I see is 890 gear from World Quests. Sure you can titanforge, but again odds are low and if you do it's usually on worthless gear.

Again, do more current content (i.e. quests in Argus).

You undercut your argument badly with this:

Mythic raiders shouldn't be motivated by gear but casuals should be? What???

Didn't say that, but ok. I said Mythic modes are there for the player base to feel challenged and what they asked for. Gear is an incentive to get more people into it. But if you want to do the most challenging content you shouldn't need to be fed gear to make it easier is the point. Mythic raiding comes with the rewards of having a decent challenge and appearances at the time.

[Otimus]

Ultimately, the entire point of Titanforging, and all of legion's lust for RNG, is to get as many people doing content over and over and over and over so they keep playing longer, so they keep paying longer.

Anything that effectively puts a stop to the "chance" is going to halt that. People aren't going to "step up" to a higher difficulty. They never have in any considerable number, and never will. Titanforging is probably "bad for the game" in some sort of like, philosophical sense or some shit, but it's good for it's intended purpose, which is to entice the crack addicts, and it works. Why would they change that? What in the world would they possibly gain, financially, from changing it? They might gain integrity from a few mad elitists on keeping the "high end" pure. But integrity doesn't generate money.

[clevin]

Except you don't. You have a chance. That chance isn't always guaranteed. People make that chance out to be bigger than it really is because they see a few people around them get it.

If they chance is so low, why have it there at all?

Sure, let's devalue content and make it pointless to run because the players love having a reason to run old content for no incentive. Blizzard also enjoys losing customers because they have nothing to do for awhile because people leave when they see no rewards available.

If they've already run it enough that the regular drops aren't of value they're done with it. You want them to continue to run it only for gear.

Except sometimes you can't move on because the rest of the raid is undergeared, etc.

In which case you're not ready to move on, are you? BY definition, you still need gear from that instance. On the other hand, if the regular drops and, say, the WF drops aren't upgrades then you're NOT undergeared (you might want to invest in a logic course...)

You must be playing a different game. Most I see is 890 gear from World Quests. Sure you can titanforge, but again odds are low and if you do it's usually on worthless gear.

IF TF is so rare and so often useless, again, why keep it and not cap it? (Again with the logic. It's useful. Check it out).

Didn't say that, but ok. I said Mythic modes are there for the player base to feel challenged and what they asked for. Gear is an incentive to get more people into it. But if you want to do the most challenging content you shouldn't need to be fed gear to make it easier is the point. Mythic raiding comes with the rewards of having a decent challenge and appearances at the time.

You sure did. Mythic people shouldnt 'need to be fed gear' but others seemingly need to be fed gear in order for them to do content. Make up your mind.

[Lucetia]

you might want to invest in a logic course...

Was going to respond to the rest of your post, but this here says it all. You are starting to lose the argument so you would rather start throwing out insults rather than have a conversation. You can say what you need to say without throwing out insults.

[potatojenkins]

If they've already run it enough that the regular drops aren't of value they're done with it. You want them to continue to run it only for gear.

Blizzard doesn't want people to be done with content. I think that was the entire point of the system in the first place.

[Zan15]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier. 15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels. Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone. Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

So basically another dude who is angry non mythic raiders once and a blue moon get mythic or better gear, making no difference to his raiding or game play

[Deleted]

stats have already inflated much faster this expansion than they have in any expansion past, and you want them to inflate FASTER? Are you high?

The power level jumps over the years have been consistently around 110-130% increase per instance or tier.

The power level jumps between expansion on average have been 200% to 300%.

EN to NH had the highest jump this expansion valued around 316% increase.

ToS power jump right now has been around 120% as well, the general average.

The main problem this expansion is mainly the 3 instances within one tier, inflating the damage by a lot, because if you split them in separate tiers (even though they are not) it's around the same value of increase ToS has experienced thus far. The second biggest jump was WoD to Legion, valued at around 270%.

Basically if Blizzard makes power jumps between expansions similar to the gains between instances and tiers, they could literally delay the squish by almost 1 expansion on average. Although I get their point, you want to really notice the difference between expansions, but it doesn't have to be by that much.

- - - Updated - - -

Except you don't. You have a chance. That chance isn't always guaranteed. People make that chance out to be bigger than it really is because they see a few people around them get it.



Sure, let's devalue content and make it pointless to run because the players love having a reason to run old content for no incentive. Blizzard also enjoys losing customers because they have nothing to do for awhile because people leave when they see no rewards available.



Except sometimes you can't move on because the rest of the raid is undergeared, etc. Why waste your time when the rest of the raid still needs things if you have no chance of seeing an upgrade.



You must be playing a different game. Most I see is 890 gear from World Quests. Sure you can titanforge, but again odds are low and if you do it's usually on worthless gear.

Again, do more current content (i.e. quests in Argus).



Didn't say that, but ok. I said Mythic modes are there for the player base to feel challenged and what they asked for. Gear is an incentive to get more people into it. But if you want to do the most challenging content you shouldn't need to be fed gear to make it easier is the point. Mythic raiding comes with the rewards of having a decent challenge and appearances at the time.

Old content needs to die out, it's not a good way of making content, the raiding scene that raids mythic and clears it before the new tier is out, hates the idea of having to run old raids because it takes away a lot of time you could spend on your raiding alts instead. So the logical fix would be that the tiers titanforged cap does not go up when a new tier is released. Ie nighthold would remain capped at 925 and not 955.

[Stormspellz]

if anything it needs to be shrinked, 4 tiers with wf/tf, per raid cycle is some truly stupid stat inflation.

[Lucetia]

Old content needs to die out, it's not a good way of making content, the raiding scene that raids mythic and clears it before the new tier is out, hates the idea of having to run old raids because it takes away a lot of time you could spend on your raiding alts instead. So the logical fix would be that the tiers titanforged cap does not go up when a new tier is released. Ie nighthold would remain capped at 925 and not 955.

If Mythic guilds feel they need to run previous raids to stay competitive then that is an issue they've created. Nowhere does it say that they need to run Nighthold Mythic in order to stay competitive or anything like that. They have the current tier and can put it on farm. Run it so you get your titanforges a lot easier.

Sure old content has some decent trinkets you could still, but this has always been the case and there's nothing wrong with it. In fact that encourages those individuals to try and create their own raids which gets more of the community involved.

[Deleted]

Except that removes the incentive to do those things. Why do normal mode when all you can get is heroic loot? Might as well do heroic.

Yes, indeed! If your character has the proper gear and can find a group to do it, why would you not want to do heroic? Why would you actually want to go run the same raid on a difficulty that your character is overtuned for?

Even if TF would be capped at the next difficulties ilvl it would not take away much of the reason to run lower difficulties. You could still get tier pieces and trinkets, and even chance on getting a socketed piece or a legendary. There has never been so many incentives to run content at the lower difficulties, and I am fine with most of them. Having the TF even have a chance to go as high as it does, even tho it is really rare as you point out, does rub me the wrong way tho.

[munkeyinorbit]

These snow flakes are forgetting that WoW is a game and not a job. TF should either be removed altogether, an action that Blizzard will probably never do, or remain as it is. Getting rewarded for doing something is a key component of playing a game. If there is no reward then why the fuck are you even doing it? I have gone about 6 weeks now from getting an upgrade but I do it for two reasons. Have fun with my friends and potential for character progression. I don't raid mythic, but according to you morons I should be swimming in Mythic quality gear.

My ilvl is 925 and I raid heroic. My raid is all between 910 and 930 yet I remember 2 pieces being dropped since tier started that was 930 or higher. It is so rare that it I actually remember both occasions. I have done a bit of LFR, I do some low level mythic+, usually around +8 to +10, and I usually come to the guild alt night and do half a raid there. Guess where all my gear came from? That's right, it all came from LFR. No, thats just fucking moronic. It all came from Heroic raids except 2 pieces. 1 artifact trait from normal and 1 Mythic+ TF. My story is the same for all of my raiders. Almost all of the gear we wear is from the current raid content.

Now here is where TF is good. We raid once per week and have an alt night the other day. We all bring our shitty alts and clear the first stuff easily. Then we get to a point where it is becoming a little bit of a struggle so a couple of us jump on mains just to push us through with ease. We don't want to "progress" on alts, we just want to have some fun, pick up a piece or two and then go to bed. Now, why the fuck would anyone bring their main in if they are not going to be rewarded? When you are there and your helping your mates out, it is a bit of a buzz to get an item from a raid lower than you that is actually good. The sound in the voice when this happens is one of surprise and joy.

What is it about some random person you are never going to meet finding joy in this game makes you so self conscious about yourself that you want to take that away from them? Do you hate yourself so much that you want to take joy away from others? I never understand why you people are like this but you are fucking everywhere. If you hate the game so much, just quit.

[epLe]

Of course the ideal situation is to remove Titanforging, but if Titanforging is here to stay, then I think it might be time to revisit the 15 ilvl gap between each tier.

Of course the ideal sitation is just exactly how it is now.

15 item levels is far too small of a gap in a world where non-Mythic gear can proc upwards of 50 item levels.

15 item levels for each difficulty is perfectly fine. Any higher and power creep gets exponentially worse.
Dont mix WF/TF procs with base item levels - they are not the same.

Most of the loot is disenchanted when a mythic boss is killed for the first time which is not fun for anyone.

When killed for first time ? not at all.

Here are the gaps I propose:

LFR --> N = +15 ilvls
N --> H = +20 ilvls
H --> M = +25 ilvls

For example, ToS would drop 900N/920H/945M gear with the 955 TF cap.

Any thoughts about this?

So all you want is for mythic raid gear to not be contested by any other gear.
Either to A) slack out on all other content, or B) caring too much about other players gear.