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  1. #1

    Do you decline low ST dps on Tyrannical week?

    Having a look at the logs of a primarily single target fight like Sisters of the Moon, there is clearly a large difference in single target output between the specs:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2050

    All else being equal, do you think that it's reasonable to decline the bottom two-thirds of the specs in that list in order to maximise the probability of successfully clearing the Tyrannical dungeon in time, given how crucial single target DPS is this week? A group with, for example, an Elemental Shaman + Assassination Rogue + BM Hunter vs an Enhancement Shaman + Subtlety Rogue + MM Hunter could be the difference between a key downgrade and a key upgrade. And it makes sense that a prudent group leader would do whatever they could to ensure success.
    Last edited by styil; 2017-10-16 at 07:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Unless you are pushing keys at like 17+ it really doesnt matter.

    A terrible Sub rogue is gonna be less useful than a strong spriest who knows how to play the game.

    Anything below a 15 you can take any balanced comp and not fail the dungeon.

    You will lose time from dying and pulling incorrectly more than the dps differences between specs

    EDIT: I didnt read the bottom line. Yeah sure you can ask what specs people are when they sign up and you can wait for the highest ilvl person you can find. Its your group do w/e the hell you want.

  3. #3
    I decline outlaw rogues even with fortified
    You think you do, but you don't ©
    Rogues are fine ©
    We're pretty happy with rogues ©
    Haste will fix it ©

  4. #4
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    That depends entirely on you and what your goals are. Are you trying to see how high you can push? Then yeah you want whatever the best combination available to you is. Otherwise, no. I mean you're talking about pretty short fights even with Tyrannical unless, again, you're pushing like 17+.

  5. #5
    Switch to heroic ST fights --- see the chart change.

  6. #6
    For anything below +17 specs and classes are irrelevant.

    Should you discredit specs based on random assumptions? Sure you can. Is it smart to do so? Not really.

    Frost mage has one of the best ST dps in m+ and provides a lot of utilities. Feral/Boomkin/DK has ridicuous cleave AND a battle res which can be invaluable. And why should you take Sisters as example? Goroth is much closer to ST than Sisters is as Sisters has downtime. Why 75% instead of 95%? If you want to the best results, you should consider a rather proc-rich environment to see how best your group can perform. Suddenly the graph is completely different bar 1-2 classes.

  7. #7
    From that statistic, if you remove the min and max, you have less than 10% between the rest of the specs. I think that counts as good enough for most M+.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    Having a look at the logs of a primarily single target fight like Sisters of the Moon, there is clearly a large difference in single target output between the specs:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2050

    All else being equal, do you think that it's reasonable to decline the bottom two-thirds of the specs in that list in order to maximise the probability of successfully clearing the Tyrannical dungeon in time, given how crucial single target DPS is this week? A group with, for example, an Elemental Shaman + Assassination Rogue + BM Hunter vs an Enhancement Shaman + Subtlety Rogue + MM Hunter could be the difference between a key downgrade and a key upgrade. And it makes sense that a prudent group leader would do whatever they could to ensure success.
    A WW monk and an Arms warrior have 50k dps difference.
    1.30m vs 1.25m
    Thats like a 4% difference lol.
    The former is considered "garbage" while Arms is god-tier. Back in the day we had 30% differences between specs, we prayed to all gods and devils to make it to only 4.5%!

    No, I won't decline anyone.
    Even consider that a persistent player who plays with a low-performing spec WILL do more dps than fotm rerollers.

  9. #9
    Most of the difficult bosses on tyrannical aren't actually single target fights. On the final boss in Karazhan, for example, a windwalker monk is invaluable for quickly cleaning up the adds.

  10. #10
    On tyrannical week, I typically want 1 strong ST dps, 1 strong aoe, and a mix (in a perfect world) sometimes 2 strong st, depending on the dungeon.

    But yeah, I will always aim for 1-2 strong ST dps, and decline low st dps specs if I haven't got enough yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    A WW monk and an Arms warrior have 50k dps difference.
    Not in M+, where bosses last long enough for arms to get 2 lots of cds, and monks to get 1. That stuff matters, MM and Arms gets cds back much more than other specs. Either 2 to their 1, or 3 to their 2.

  11. #11
    No, and let me illustrate. First normailze ilvl as you're probably already looking at that in the queue. Now letts look at Goroth HC for instance on 50th percentile ( https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=24&dataset=50 ). See how that Arms warrior has a 20% lead over the outlaw rogue? Now let's say you have a more competent outlaw rogue, executing at 90% (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=24&dataset=90). Notice how those rogues are doing more dps than the former warriors?
    I know you're saying 'all things being equal', but no, still player > spec. Look at their experience through their wowprogress or raider.io profile ( http://mythicplus.help is a timesaver ). A good M+ player will know the instance and mobs, how to deal with the affixes best, know how to gear and gearswap, know when blow CD's and when to sacrifice deeps for survival etc etc.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    No, and let me illustrate. First normailze ilvl as you're probably already looking at that in the queue. Now letts look at Goroth HC for instance on 50th percentile
    #1 There's no raid fight that will give you an accurate example of a tyrannical fight, as it's longer, and that makes a huge dps difference.
    #2 You're assuming that you're going to have one person noticably better than the other in que, that's very rarely the case, you easily often get multiple people of similar skill levels, so what ends up mattering is the spec.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    i do m+ 15-18 runs every weak.
    Setup: We have dh/dk tank, hpally/hpriest, dk/dh dps. We fill the spots with:
    HEALER : hpriest/rduid RARELY hpally
    TANK : DK or DH only, nothing else
    DPS: mage or hunter, nothing else
    Same setup each weak.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    No, and let me illustrate. First normailze ilvl as you're probably already looking at that in the queue. Now letts look at Goroth HC for instance on 50th percentile ( https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=24&dataset=50 ). See how that Arms warrior has a 20% lead over the outlaw rogue? Now let's say you have a more competent outlaw rogue, executing at 90% (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=24&dataset=90). Notice how those rogues are doing more dps than the former warriors?
    Look at these simcraft rankings for ST dps:
    http://simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T20M.html

    Pay attention not only to the bar lengths but also to the variances (the "ranges" shown at the end of the bars). Where does outlaw rank on the average ("50%")? Where does it rank at its highest ("90%+", top end of the range)?

    The above phenomenon has nothing to do with player skill, it's pure RNG and its effect becomes significant if you browse the "90% parses" or higher.

  15. #15
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    OP, please define low ST dps. I ran a few mythics between 12-17 this weekend with the same group which included a BM hunter and a SnD Outlaw rogue. Both were doing over a million dps on each boss.

    Your theory falls flat for two reasons; you're using a raid parse and extrapolating that into mythic plus (fight times are way shorter in the latter) and you made the mistake of qualifying your post with "all else being equal", which is nonsense in this context.

  16. #16
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    We don't pick & choose because we have a good stable comp and because it's worth more to bring players you're used to playing/communicating with and know what to expect.

    Usually we go:
    Tank - Blood DK
    Healer - Resto Druid
    DPS 1 - Me (MM Hunter)
    DPS 2 - Fire Mage/Aff Lock
    DPS 3 - Sub Rogue

    We run from 11-19 usually.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Look at these simcraft rankings for ST dps:
    http://simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T20M.html

    Pay attention not only to the bar lengths but also to the variances (the "ranges" shown at the end of the bars). Where does outlaw rank on the average ("50%")? Where does it rank at its highest ("90%+", top end of the range)?

    The above phenomenon has nothing to do with player skill, it's pure RNG and its effect becomes significant if you browse the "90% parses" or higher.
    technically the variances are the grey and black part of the bar around the mean (i think, simcraft use a different notation than my probability course), the 2 extremes are only the min and max of dps distributions, there are still difference but outlaw is more or less +- 60k dps meanwhile warriors 40k dps

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by j0ust View Post
    OP, please define low ST dps. I ran a few mythics between 12-17 this weekend with the same group which included a BM hunter and a SnD Outlaw rogue. Both were doing over a million dps on each boss.

    Your theory falls flat for two reasons; you're using a raid parse and extrapolating that into mythic plus (fight times are way shorter in the latter) and you made the mistake of qualifying your post with "all else being equal", which is nonsense in this context.
    Over 1mil is not at all impressive, especially on bosses that don't last that long.

    But you're right in that raid parses mean nothing. Far too long a fight, doesn't consider the cd times of each specs.

  19. #19
    It's not all about damage. Utility and survival are huge on high tyrannical. Enhance is garbage on high tyrannical even though it's single target is quite good purely due to lack of defensives for instance. BM is better than MM on Tyrannical because of the Bres and moving out of 1 shot mechanics doesn't fuck it's DPS as much as MM.

    Rogues (all 3 specs, even shitlaw) are the best Tyannical dps becuse they are the hardest dps to kill by a large margin not because of their damage alone.

    Anyway class comp doesn't mean that much compared to player skill until 17+. When I see a pug leader asking for a optimal comp and bar specific specs for a 13 maw I already know they're shit.
    Last edited by dirtybrew; 2017-10-16 at 12:53 PM.

  20. #20
    The only thing that matters for bringing the class over the player is, "Does this class have the immunities/cooldowns to survive boss burst damage mechanics for this dungeon?" Doing a tyrannical BRH 17-20? It actually matters here. A warrior is fucking dead on the 1st and last bosses. A rogue will be fine ect.

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