Artificial Difficulty in Legion

[FrostyK]

It seems that a lot of difficulty in Legion dungeon and raid are due to something arbitrary rather than the challenge itself. And this arbitrary thing is, Camera distance and angle. It seems no surprised that with Legion, Blizzard brought about the max camera distance nerf. I am by no mean saying, these challenges and artificial difficulty are hard. Some of them are quite easy actually. What I would like to discuss is rather the direction that Blizzard heading in terms of dungeon/raid difficulty design.

Artificial Difficulty?
Ever played those platform games where you have to jump from one ledge to another ledge. While the jumping itself is a minor challenge, the game designer made it hard by putting something to block your view. Or the camera angle is designed in a way its difficult to gauge the distance. Thus the result is you falling over and over and over not because you don't know how to jump, but because of something rather stupid.


In WoW?

I can give many example in Legion where difficulty arrive from camera angle issues. Sometime the challenge and consequences are minor. Then there are those moment where if you fail, your group will wipe which I think is a bad game design. I would like to emphasize again that I am by no mean complaining these are hard. I am encouraging discussion in terms of game design.

HoV Hymdall
The drakes. The challenge itself is easy. Identify where the drakes are coming from and avoid the area. The difficulty comes when you are trying to rotate your camera angle and see where the drakes are coming from. While veteran raiders are comfortable with this aspect of WoW, most casual and mid-tier players are not. They have always been used to playing with the camera angle facing the boss. Another minor artificial challenge is where the AOE attack by drakes, due to the lightning animation, are slightly hard to gauge. You could be standing at the border where you think you're safe, but it just one shot you. It can get frustrating when the best way to avoid said AOE is to jump back into the area that have just been carpet-bombed by the drake.


HoV Odyn
Not as punishing as Hymdal. At most you get stunned by orbs hitting you in the back.


MoS Helya
Worst offender. While you could give Blizzard the benefit of doubt with other examples, Helya is the definite proof that camera-angle induced difficulty is what Blizz is going for. Her breath attack in both phases requires you to look at her ugly face to see where she is spitting. Can catch any non-alert players by surprise when your back facing her to attack any destructor tentacle that spawned at the back.


NL Ulaarog
No as bad since you have 5 players. But it doesn't hide the fact that the best way to play the barrel game is to get a good camera angle.


VotW Coordana
Creeping Doom. You need to turn your camera angle at certain point to determine where the new wave of creeping doom and the gap is. It is hilarious how a max camera distance would made this very trivial.


ToS
The worst offender is the entire Tomb of Sageras itself and the soaking mechanics.

Many of Tomb Bosses that requires soaking mechanic are also (surprised, surprised) fought inside very large spacious room. While mechanic itself is simple enough, failing to do so wipe the raid. This bring alot of frustration when the difficulty lies not in the soaking but rather the large spacious room (KJ, Avatar, Goroth, etc). When the soaking mechanic triggers, due to the large room you have to swing your camera angle 360 degree to see where are all the soaking location. Something that could be made trivial with max camera distance.

Not only that, Blizzard also likes to trolls the players by making said soaking mechanic's animation the same as other spells. Goroth cast green circles on the floor for some of his spell. Bursting dreadflame looks a lot like Armageddon which leads to people leaving the soak prematurely.

Challenges like these are not hard. BUT they are made hard due to camera angle and misleading animation. It doesn't help that blizzard punish the hell out of the raiders should they fail these "easy" mechanic.

There could be more example but I'm sure you guys get my point.

How do you guys feel about dungeon difficulties that are presented in such a manner? I understand most raiders are comfortable with rotating their camera angle, while still executing perfection dps rotation on the boss. Perhaps these challenges might sneak past you unnoticed. However for the vast majority of causal player base, it is not. Players generally don't like to disorientate themselves in RPG (this is not FPS). Rotating camera angle that often is something that we don't do that often before Legion. Or at least if you don't, you wont get punished as hard compared to Legion.

[Soisoisoi]

Sisters is more of a pain for me tbf, especially when you're playing ranged at the side of the room, it fucks your camera up just enough so you physically can't see where the NPC that likes to launch the glaive at you is.

[nycnyc88]

Agree totally.
Thwarting the twins challenge for me - when you rotate camera, the "trees" that are placed around the room block the view and make the constant zoom-in/zoom-out as camera adjusts very annoying. This alone cause many wipes for me.

[Soluna]

I think you guys need to take a chill pill and learn to play or quit. All of the mechanics you talked about are easy as fuck, or fun. This is the type of thing that is needed more in wow, mechanics that you have to look at the boss and the surrounding area to beat. Not just look at your hotbars and dbm timers.

Even maiden, you guys are bullshit, its easy as fuck to distinguish which orbs are green and which yellow. Dragons on Hymdall are a retard check. You can't imagine how many players die on them every day, even on easy mythic+ keys. Shows just how bad most of the playerbase is. I could go on but there is no point.

I know I sound toxic, but fuck, you guys just try so fucking hard every day to blame blizz for something. They are just trying to create new mechanics, don't give them so much bullshit. Ye sure, maiden orbs are same as thaddius, but most of the legion dungeons have some nice and fresh mechanics here and there.

[Aeula]

Definitely explains the max camera distance being cut down.

I’ve felt it too on quite a few bosses.

[FrostyK]

I think you guys need to take a chill pill and learn to play or quit. All of the mechanics you talked about are easy as fuck, or fun. This is the type of thing that is needed more in wow, mechanics that you have to look at the boss and the surrounding area to beat. Not just look at your hotbars and dbm timers.

Even maiden, you guys are bullshit, its easy as fuck to distinguish which orbs are green and which yellow. Dragons on Hymdall are a retard check. You can't imagine how many players die on them every day, even on easy mythic+ keys. Shows just how bad most of the playerbase is. I could go on but there is no point.

I know I sound toxic, but fuck, you guys just try so fucking hard every day to blame blizz for something. They are just trying to create new mechanics, don't give them so much bullshit. Ye sure, maiden orbs are same as thaddius, but most of the legion dungeons have some nice and fresh mechanics here and there.

I specifically started of the topic with this

"I am by no mean saying, these challenges and artificial difficulty are hard. Some of them are quite easy actually. What I would like to discuss is rather the direction hat Blizzard heading in terms of dungeon/raid difficulty design."

and end it with this

"Challenges like these are not hard. BUT they are made hard due to camera angle and misleading animation. It doesn't help that blizzard punish the hell out of the raiders should they fail these "easy" mechanic. "

so as to avoid unhelpful comment like yours. But I'm sure you're just waiting for the right thread to come to along to say "git gud" to others. So, I"m gonna give you pass this time.

[ls-]

But any difficulty is artificial o_O

[Soluna]

I specifically started of the topic with this

"I am by no mean saying, these challenges and artificial difficulty are hard. Some of them are quite easy actually. What I would like to discuss is rather the direction hat Blizzard heading in terms of dungeon/raid difficulty design."

and end it with this

"Challenges like these are not hard. BUT they are made hard due to camera angle and misleading animation. It doesn't help that blizzard punish the hell out of the raiders should they fail these "easy" mechanic. "

so as to avoid unhelpful comment like yours. But I'm sure you're just waiting for the right thread to come to along to say "git gud" to others. So, I"m gonna give you pass this time.

No I am not waiting for the right thread to say to ppl to git gud, I am just looking for some good threads, but all mmo champion is about lately is bashing blizzard for the most stupid reasons.

[Elbob]

A number of your examples have alerts that are in the game to make you look for the mechanic. Most mechanics that require preemptive planning do. Hymdall, Helya, Odyn spear shatter. The game is played in a virtual 3d space... you need to use your eyes, and it feels like you are saying that rotating your camera is "artificial difficulty". Sorry bud I can't jump on this band wagon in general even though I can agree with some rooms and cameras being annoying. The idea of needing to use your camera to look for incoming mechanics is a core part of gaming in general not just wow/mmos.

I do agree with one poster about mistresses room and the bubble shaped ceiling being a nightmare. Also rooms with drapes/flags/trees/pillars around the outside of the room that cause camera control to feel terrible.

[FrostyK]

But any difficulty is artificial o_O

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CameraScrew

[ls-]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

So basically everything difficult in games is artificially difficult.

Could you provide an example of a difficult and not artificially difficult mechanic in WoW?

-- edit #1

Just to be clear, I read that article, but examples of real difficulty can be easily interpreted as artificial difficulty. Difficulty is highly subjective.

[Khallid]

I find it more annoying when the camera zooms in because you have a wall behind you, which happens on several fights here and there (sisters, star augur, etc.). However, not being able to zoom out indefinitely I think is mostly fine. The only fight where I sometimes don't see all the soaking rings is in Goroth, but we just have people call them.

I don't see why adding something that "trivializes mechanics" would be a good thing. Mechanics are not fun if they're trivial.

[FrostyK]

So basically everything difficult in games is artificially difficult.

Could you provide an example of a difficult and not artificially difficult mechanic in WoW?

-- edit #1

Just to be clear, I read that article, but examples of real difficulty can be easily interpreted as artificial difficulty. Difficulty is highly subjective.

I have given this very simple example at the beginning of my post,

"Ever played those platform games where you have to jump from one ledge to another ledge. While the jumping itself is a minor challenge, the game designer made it hard by putting something to block your view. Or the camera angle is designed in a way its difficult to gauge the distance. Thus the result is you falling over and over and over not because you don't know how to jump, but because of something rather stupid."

I also do not wish to derailed this thread into a gaming theory and philosophy topic. If you get what I mean, there's no need to get all philosophical. By most of other replies, be it whether they agree with what I posted or not, they seems to get what I was trying to convey.

If you wish to discuss in depth of artificial difficulty from the perspective of game theory and philosophical standpoint, feel free to pm me. I would love that conversation. I doubt the rest would and also is not the intention of my original thread.

- - - Updated - - -

I find it more annoying when the camera zooms in because you have a wall behind you, which happens on several fights here and there (sisters, star augur, etc.). However, not being able to zoom out indefinitely I think is mostly fine. The only fight where I sometimes don't see all the soaking rings is in Goroth, but we just have people call them.

I don't see why adding something that "trivializes mechanics" would be a good thing. Mechanics are not fun if they're trivial.

Exactly what I feel too. The issue isnt to add something that "trivialize mechanic" but rather...

The fact they removed something that could trivialize the mechanic to make raid challenging, is not a good sign. It's either they are running out of design ideas that they have to resort to this form difficulty or they are just experimenting with a few mechanics (I truly hope its the later). FPS is a game where managing camera angle is a skills, but WoW is not an FPS game. Its good have camera angle mechanic once in a while in MMORPG to spice things up a bit, but I felt that the way it was handled in legion, was a bit overboard.

[Twdft]

Could you provide an example of a difficult and not artificially difficult mechanic in WoW?

The quest for leatherworking mount, specifically jumping down the waterfalls. It is difficult to time your jumps just right. But you can always see what's going on without having to rotate your camera to see shit that's coming for you sideways.

[FrostyK]

No I am not waiting for the right thread to say to ppl to git gud, I am just looking for some good threads, but all mmo champion is about lately is bashing blizzard for the most stupid reasons.

"I am by no mean saying, these challenges and artificial difficulty are hard. Some of them are quite easy actually. What I would like to discuss is rather the direction that Blizzard heading in terms of dungeon/raid difficulty design." That was my first paragraph. Not sure you missed it or you refuse to acknowledge it. But I sense that you came into this thread with a pre-judgement of what you think this thread is. So nothing I write will change your mind.

I am not bashing nor complaining. If you like this path of difficulty design Blizzard have took in Legion, you're free to comment on why you like it in a civilized and detailed manner. I am excited to read it.

[TheVaryag]

It seems that a lot of difficulty in Legion dungeon and raid are due to something arbitrary rather than the challenge itself. And this arbitrary thing is, Camera distance and angle. It seems no surprised that with Legion, Blizzard brought about the max camera distance nerf. I am by no mean saying, these challenges and artificial difficulty are hard. Some of them are quite easy actually. What I would like to discuss is rather the direction that Blizzard heading in terms of dungeon/raid difficulty design.

Artificial Difficulty?
Ever played those platform games where you have to jump from one ledge to another ledge. While the jumping itself is a minor challenge, the game designer made it hard by putting something to block your view. Or the camera angle is designed in a way its difficult to gauge the distance. Thus the result is you falling over and over and over not because you don't know how to jump, but because of something rather stupid.


In WoW?

I can give many example in Legion where difficulty arrive from camera angle issues. Sometime the challenge and consequences are minor. Then there are those moment where if you fail, your group will wipe which I think is a bad game design. I would like to emphasize again that I am by no mean complaining these are hard. I am encouraging discussion in terms of game design.

HoV Hymdall
The drakes. The challenge itself is easy. Identify where the drakes are coming from and avoid the area. The difficulty comes when you are trying to rotate your camera angle and see where the drakes are coming from. While veteran raiders are comfortable with this aspect of WoW, most casual and mid-tier players are not. They have always been used to playing with the camera angle facing the boss. Another minor artificial challenge is where the AOE attack by drakes, due to the lightning animation, are slightly hard to gauge. You could be standing at the border where you think you're safe, but it just one shot you. It can get frustrating when the best way to avoid said AOE is to jump back into the area that have just been carpet-bombed by the drake.


HoV Odyn
Not as punishing as Hymdal. At most you get stunned by orbs hitting you in the back.


MoS Helya
Worst offender. While you could give Blizzard the benefit of doubt with other examples, Helya is the definite proof that camera-angle induced difficulty is what Blizz is going for. Her breath attack in both phases requires you to look at her ugly face to see where she is spitting. Can catch any non-alert players by surprise when your back facing her to attack any destructor tentacle that spawned at the back.


NL Ulaarog
No as bad since you have 5 players. But it doesn't hide the fact that the best way to play the barrel game is to get a good camera angle.


VotW Coordana
Creeping Doom. You need to turn your camera angle at certain point to determine where the new wave of creeping doom and the gap is. It is hilarious how a max camera distance would made this very trivial.


ToS
The worst offender is the entire Tomb of Sageras itself and the soaking mechanics.

Many of Tomb Bosses that requires soaking mechanic are also (surprised, surprised) fought inside very large spacious room. While mechanic itself is simple enough, failing to do so wipe the raid. This bring alot of frustration when the difficulty lies not in the soaking but rather the large spacious room (KJ, Avatar, Goroth, etc). When the soaking mechanic triggers, due to the large room you have to swing your camera angle 360 degree to see where are all the soaking location. Something that could be made trivial with max camera distance.

Not only that, Blizzard also likes to trolls the players by making said soaking mechanic's animation the same as other spells. Goroth cast green circles on the floor for some of his spell. Bursting dreadflame looks a lot like Armageddon which leads to people leaving the soak prematurely.

Challenges like these are not hard. BUT they are made hard due to camera angle and misleading animation. It doesn't help that blizzard punish the hell out of the raiders should they fail these "easy" mechanic.

There could be more example but I'm sure you guys get my point.

How do you guys feel about dungeon difficulties that are presented in such a manner? I understand most raiders are comfortable with rotating their camera angle, while still executing perfection dps rotation on the boss. Perhaps these challenges might sneak past you unnoticed. However for the vast majority of causal player base, it is not. Players generally don't like to disorientate themselves in RPG (this is not FPS). Rotating camera angle that often is something that we don't do that often before Legion. Or at least if you don't, you wont get punished as hard compared to Legion.

Yeah I agree completely, I noticed It first with Hymdall which was my first dungeon boss In Legion, It's like... something is wrong and I could never put my finger on It and now a year later I'm like "Oh yeah, this is a casual's paaaaradise.

Really, nothing In Legion Is "Difficult" that's the point, It's accessable, any casual sod can play It and earn epic helmets just from pressing W and occasionaly kill something along a predetermined path. Getting loot on a silver platter for doing almost nothing, It's one of my biggest worries In Legion, how It shows us the potential future of everything being so easy and unrewarding, I already feel unrewarded, It's like... really, I get 910 ilevel gear as of patch 7.3 for giving you a bunch of draenei arcanitewhateverbollock crystals? That easy? Why did I get my previous gear then?

Not to mention how the big change here Is World Quests which simplifie quests to a laughable degree. There's world quests that are literaly so easy you only do: Kicking squirel nuts and squirels around, growing trees as a wisp while avoiding the nemesis of a wisp: a fish. You jump on a casket of wine until the guy says "Your feet are so nicely wet", a quest on broken shore where you pick up a living bomb buff on yourself, press W until the spiders near you die from the living bomb area, or lastly the world quest which I knew would be turned from normal quest Into world quest cause ofcourse is doing this: Flying around In a "Lightforged warframe" bombarding enemy artilerry and flying units, while taking NO DAMAGE AT ALL - that's was the straw for me, like where's the bloody challenge then, where's my failure state, I'm literally being given free shit at that point for doing absolutely nothing

[Jujudrood]

The one thing they could add that would alleviate this is no more auto-zoom-adjust with the camera and just xray-spy type thing through whatever is obstructing it.
When I am in the world and there is a tree behind me, angling the camera down shouldn't zoom way the fuck in because a tree is in the way.
Instead, it should 'spy' through it, effectively removing the portion of the tree in line of sight and give you a nice, clear view.
There's been plenty of games that do this, whether they do not render the entire obstruction or just place an 'xray' around your character as a bubble, where maybe in a 5-10 yard radius from your character's center based on current camera angle remains unhindered from obstruction and you see only the things in front of you.
Then, you could sit at max distance, swing the camera as you want, and not have to worry about some silly camera shenanigans because a goddamn tree branch zoomed you in or a leaf ends up blocking your entire view of your character.

[Swalload]

OP

Everything you said comes down to spacial awareness and attention to details. These are things we deal with in the everyday life and aren't any more artificial than just stats on a boss.

It's all just ways of making the current mechanics harder to deal with. The real problem is the lack of original mechanics.

Camera distance does only one thing: allows you to see more raid members around you. Everything else would have been scaled up to what they want it to look like in the camera, however far it is. Closer camera means less back and forth when in close areas or when looking up. They wouldn't just leave everything as it is and let you have it easier by seeing everything and never moving the camera the way they want you to.

- - - Updated - - -

The one thing they could add that would alleviate this is no more auto-zoom-adjust with the camera and just xray-spy type thing through whatever is obstructing it.
When I am in the world and there is a tree behind me, angling the camera down shouldn't zoom way the fuck in because a tree is in the way.
Instead, it should 'spy' through it, effectively removing the portion of the tree in line of sight and give you a nice, clear view.
There's been plenty of games that do this, whether they do not render the entire obstruction or just place an 'xray' around your character as a bubble, where maybe in a 5-10 yard radius from your character's center based on current camera angle remains unhindered from obstruction and you see only the things in front of you.
Then, you could sit at max distance, swing the camera as you want, and not have to worry about some silly camera shenanigans because a goddamn tree branch zoomed you in or a leaf ends up blocking your entire view of your character.

Games that do that have a fixed camera, they do it for this very reason. In WoW, you have full control of your camera, you can place it, and move it around and always be fine.

[Jujudrood]

Games that do that have a fixed camera, they do it for this very reason. In WoW, you have full control of your camera, you can place it, and move it around and always be fine.

True, but it shouldn't be difficult to allow a non-forced zoom and an xray like feature because sometimes people don't want to have to put the camera to the side just to see something in their vicinity due to a forced adjustment because environment got in the way.
Players, bosses, actual 'actor' things can block the camera, but environment is annoying, though minor.

This typically doesn't bother me, but like, when your back is to a wall (like sisters, as an example), you have to swing a bit to the side to get a view, else it goes first person, so it's a minor .3 second inconvenience for me, but could save others from larger frustration.

[Deleted]

In Sisters, if you stand in a certain area of the left wall (when coming inside the room), you can have your vision obscured by some banner that is hanging there. The camera in that encounter drives me crazy.