1. #14001
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    Funny
    It's also funny that the best defense Trump's rabid fanbase can come up with is "well, he shouldn't have been arrested that way!"

    Because even they know Stone is proof Team Trump colluded with Russia.

  2. #14002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    He'd have to be stupid not to consider it. Mueller, by contrast, as some of you have already indicated, might not need to offer anything. You don't typically offer a plea deal when you have means, motive, opportunity, and witnesses screaming "HE DONE DID IT!"

    Unless Stone has something extra juicy that Mueller, and we, don't know about. Such as a confession from Trump.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, time to listen to another legal expert. Guess the speaker of each of the following:

    A)

    B)

    C)

    The answer to all three is Trump ally Chris Christie.

    Wanna see the video?
    I've been thinking a lot about Trump and his pardon ability. Even if he was on his way out, vis a vis a resignation, I wouldn't put him past throwing out several pardons out of a purely self serving nature. If Manafort/Stone/Cohen/Whomever have pardons, they don't need to worry about plea deals or flipping. They're free. And Trump is free from their testimony against him in post-Residential trials.

    Gamble vs. United States is coming down the pipeline, and may have implications for pardons in regards to state charges (TLDR atm it's widely thought that presidential pardons only cover federal crimes, not state - Gamble has a chance to upend that and have Presidential Pardons include state charges). Double Jeopardy essentially means you can't be tried for the same crime twice. So if you're found not guilty in a court, the prosecution can't charge you again and retry you (it's much more complicated than that).

    I wonder if Mueller is holding back on some charges that are also state crimes in lieu of this development. He is that smart and plays at a VERY high level when it comes to legal strategy.
    Last edited by cubby; 2019-01-28 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #14003
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I wonder if Mueller is holding back on some charges that are also state crimes in lieu of this development. He is that smart and plays at a VERY high level when it comes to legal strategy.
    Hold on, I need a clarification. I was under the impression that, once pardoned and protected by Double Jeopardy! that Stone, Manafort, etc. could no longer take the Fifth, since the Fifth protects from self-incrimination and they'd already be immune. Did I miss something?

  4. #14004
    I like how they're trying to push Stone's crimes into a special little corner where threatening to murder someone's dog is just no big deal.

  5. #14005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Hold on, I need a clarification. I was under the impression that, once pardoned and protected by Double Jeopardy! that Stone, Manafort, etc. could no longer take the Fifth, since the Fifth protects from self-incrimination and they'd already be immune. Did I miss something?
    Walking myself through this....

    A pardon would keep them from being prosecuted for federal crimes. And accepting the pardon, according to Burdick v United States, means you're accepting guilt. So could they be compelled to testify against someone else after being pardoned? I'm going to have to think that over.

    However, the overall idea is that any Pardon would have little to no effects because they would still be subject to state crimes, which a Pardon doesn't cover.

    I need more coffee.

  6. #14006
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I need more coffee.
    Oh, buddy...we all do.

  7. #14007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy911 View Post
    I love how nobody is talking about how they sent a Military swat team to arrest a 70 years old guy with no prior history for a process crime after calling CNN to join in.
    Oh, I pointed it out. In fact, I pointed out that they were also not getting paid to do it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they asked for volunteers to take him in, but so many people wanted to do it for free... they could send as many as they did. Why not? This is the close friend of the asshole that was keeping them from being paid, while insulting them constantly. FBI agents are human... I don’t think you understand the pleasure they must have felt in taking that turd down.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  8. #14008
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetanothernewbie View Post
    https://www.politicususa.com/2019/01...y-mueller.html

    I know its an opinion piece but please, please let this be a reality!
    I'm gonna go ahead and guess that's bullshit. He's a "journalist." Taking advice from stone to focus on hillary's health isn't illegal. As far as I can tell, taking the same advice from wikileaks, even if it was direct from assange to hannity, isn't illegal. Please stop making me defend hannity.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    A pardon would keep them from being prosecuted for federal crimes. And accepting the pardon, according to Burdick v United States, means you're accepting guilt. So could they be compelled to testify against someone else after being pardoned? I'm going to have to think that over.
    Yes, they can be compelled to testify. Yes, they can be subsequently held in contempt. Even serially so, if they get repeated pardons for each instance of contempt. You can't pardon FUTURE crimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  9. #14009
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I've been thinking a lot about Trump and his pardon ability. Even if he was on his way out, vis a vis a resignation, I wouldn't put him past throwing out several pardons out of a purely self serving nature. If Manafort/Stone/Cohen/Whomever have pardons, they don't need to worry about plea deals or flipping. They're free. And Trump is free from their testimony against him in post-Residential trials.

    Gamble vs. United States is coming down the pipeline, and may have implications for pardons in regards to state charges (TLDR atm it's widely thought that presidential pardons only cover federal crimes, not state - Gamble has a chance to upend that and have Presidential Pardons include state charges). Double Jeopardy essentially means you can't be tried for the same crime twice. So if you're found not guilty in a court, the prosecution can't charge you again and retry you (it's much more complicated than that).

    I wonder if Mueller is holding back on some charges that are also state crimes in lieu of this development. He is that smart and plays at a VERY high level when it comes to legal strategy.
    Just a thought, couldn't Gamble come back to haunt them at that point.

    If them getting a pardon for a federal charge automatically includes guilt, then that would automatically include guilt for it at the state level as well.

    And while his pardon would prevent a second trial, the trial would be moot as guilt has already been declared so it would just jump to sentencing as he can't pardon from that. And double jeopardy would never come into play that way.

    Correct me if I am wrong in my logic somewhere, but couldn't the local courts try and go that route so that even if the conservative judges, joined by the potential serial rapist and illegitimate justice from the stolen seat joining their ranks, ruled that they couldn't be tried at the state level, they wouldn't need to be as they already declared themselves guilty accepting the pardon.

    I have to AFK but I am wondering about that. Will check back later. Glad to see both our bans are up from the resident Trumpkin.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  10. #14010
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    If them getting a pardon for a federal charge automatically includes guilt, then that would automatically include guilt for it at the state level as well.

    And while his pardon would prevent a second trial, the trial would be moot as guilt has already been declared so it would just jump to sentencing as he can't pardon from that. And double jeopardy would never come into play that way.
    It would be pretty insane for it to work that way. I would imagine that if you're pardoned for a federal crime that's also a state crime, then the state can't sentence you for that crime--after all, you've already been pardoned.

    RELATED crimes, however, would be absolutely fair game.

  11. #14011
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    It would be pretty insane for it to work that way. I would imagine that if you're pardoned for a federal crime that's also a state crime, then the state can't sentence you for that crime--after all, you've already been pardoned.

    RELATED crimes, however, would be absolutely fair game.
    Well, the logic is that the President can't pardon for state level crimes and since they are talking about double jeopardy so they aren't forced to stand trial twice and they lumped in the trial for the state and federal charges as well. It would prevent the trial, but also have them admit to guilt which opens them up to the sentencing part of the state stuff as the president can't pardon from that.

    Edit:

    AFK, leaving out now, will check back later.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  12. #14012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Taking advice from stone to focus on hillary's health isn't illegal.
    Maybe not.

    Taking advice from Stone, who says "I am working with Russia to help Trump's campaign, back me up" would be.

    Also, if Stone talked to Hannity, Hannity could be subpoena'd to testify. Then he could refuse (illegal) or lie under oath (illegal).

    I'm not saying Hannity should be sleeping lightly and packing a toothbrush just yet. But it's not farfetched.

  13. #14013
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Well, the logic is that the President can't pardon for state level crimes and since they are talking about double jeopardy so they aren't forced to stand trial twice and they lumped in the trial for the state and federal charges as well. It would prevent the trial, but also have them admit to guilt which opens them up to the sentencing part of the state stuff as the president can't pardon from that.
    That sounds like it would be extremely unconstitutional, which is to say I'm fairly certain that's not how it works. Someone who knows the law better than I can probably better explain why, though.

  14. #14014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Just a thought, couldn't Gamble come back to haunt them at that point.

    If them getting a pardon for a federal charge automatically includes guilt, then that would automatically include guilt for it at the state level as well.

    And while his pardon would prevent a second trial, the trial would be moot as guilt has already been declared so it would just jump to sentencing as he can't pardon from that. And double jeopardy would never come into play that way.

    Correct me if I am wrong in my logic somewhere, but couldn't the local courts try and go that route so that even if the conservative judges, joined by the potential serial rapist and illegitimate justice from the stolen seat joining their ranks, ruled that they couldn't be tried at the state level, they wouldn't need to be as they already declared themselves guilty accepting the pardon.

    I have to AFK but I am wondering about that. Will check back later. Glad to see both our bans are up from the resident Trumpkin.
    If Gamble leads to a prevention of state charges because federal ones were pardoned and double jeopardy prevents a second trial, then they would be immune from any further state charges. The admission of guilt from the pardon wouldn't result in an automatic guilty verdict in the state courts going directly to sentencing.

    But I love the idea. Wish it were so.

  15. #14015
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    This CNN opinion piece suggests that Mueller sent the cast of Rainbow Six, The Rock and Aliens to arrest Roger Stone because something about Stone's testimony really pissed him off. A show of force like this runs contrary to his character.

    If true -- uncertain of course -- it might have something to do with Stone's direct collusion between Team Trump and Russia was very specifically what Mueller was hired for (in addition to obstruction of course, which Stone is also charged with) and he lied about it. It'd be like someone showing up in my stats course and saying "polls are meaningless because the results are random, so I'm not taking the final on principle." I'm giving that daft punk a failing grade and he gets to explain to his advisor why he's retaking a 100-level course.

  16. #14016
    Still upset Stone wasn't led out in handcuffs when he was arrested. Maybe a blanket over his head to hide the shame.

  17. #14017
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Maybe not.
    Taking advice from Stone, who says "I am working with Russia to help Trump's campaign, back me up" would be.
    Also, if Stone talked to Hannity, Hannity could be subpoena'd to testify. Then he could refuse (illegal) or lie under oath (illegal).
    I'm not saying Hannity should be sleeping lightly and packing a toothbrush just yet. But it's not farfetched.
    But Stone never "worked with Russia", he only claimed to work with Wikileaks (which was a lie too).

  18. #14018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    Still upset Stone wasn't led out in handcuffs when he was arrested.
    Well, let's ask the Washington Examiner what they think

    Lest you believe Mueller's office or the Justice Department decides how many agents are deployed for an arrest, and what type of hardware they’re armed with, you’re mistaken. The FBI makes that call. Prosecutors draft indictments and litigate in court on behalf of The People. They leave the sweet science of apprehension tactics and techniques to other professionals.

    Having been involved in the planning and execution of hundreds of early morning arrests like this one, nothing appeared to be “irregular.” This was a “knock and announce” warrant service, not to be confused with a “no knock” (exigent circumstances) arrest warrant. FBI special agents were prepared to employ mechanical breaching tools to enter Stone's home if the occupant delayed their passage.

    Stone was not afforded an opportunity for a self-surrender, negotiated through his attorney, because there were concerns he may have been a flight risk (Stone insists he doesn’t own a passport) or that he may have destroyed evidence had there been warning of the coming indictment. Therefore, the FBI would have been directed to take Stone into custody. The means and methods are then left to the FBI.

    Some have speculated it was overkill treatment of an elderly man, eradicating the proverbial gnat with a hammer. But some of the most dangerous encounters I experienced in my 25-year FBI career didn’t necessarily come when apprehending career street criminals or violent gang members. It was often the unassuming, benign in appearance, white-collar fraudster, corrupt politician, or senior church member infected by pedophilia. These lawbreakers and miscreants weren’t adorned with tattoos or menacing glowers. But they had a lot to lose, and in their moment of reckoning, sufficiently panicked, they often acted irrationally — choosing to hurt themselves or attack the (blessedly) armed instruments of the state sent to apprehend them.

    To those pearl-clutchers raising alarms about “armed FBI agents,” you must be made aware that FBI agents were granted arrest powers and authority to carry firearms back when Congress passed a series of anti-crime legislation back in the summer of 1934, precipitated by an agent’s murder during the Kansas City Massacre of 1933.

    That’s why “armed FBI agent” is such a foolish redundancy. As far as Stone’s inaccurate, hyperbolic characterization of agents armed with “grenades,” it deserves no response.

    So spare me the “they didn’t need that many people for one arrest” proselytizing.
    Quick note here: the author is going after this tweet by Ingraham:

    The FBI arrest of Roger Stone at dawn, with dozens of helmeted agents, brandishing weapons, was totally unnecessary. Treated him like El Chapo. Political motives clear w/ CNN tip-off.

    You don’t know that of which you speak. In the FBI, we tend to defuse situations by removing the fight-or-flight inclination, via our overwhelming presence. To arrest one, we bring 10. For 10, we’ll bring 100. And yet, we still have a wall loaded with photos of our service martyrs. None of them expected to lose their life on that particular day.

    Please dispense with misdirected criticism of the FBI for conducting their sworn duties by safely apprehending someone accused of multiple felonies, and seeing to it that they were brought before a judge, forthwith. It’s often a damned dangerous assignment. Far more often than not, they do it with aplomb. Let’s save the Monday-morning-quarterbacking for the day after the Super Bowl.

  19. #14019
    They should send the swat after all of the Trump people they arrest from now on.

  20. #14020
    Quote Originally Posted by ctd12345 View Post


    lol
    What is Jones right about according to Stone? Of that 2:30 clip I think 2 mins of that was random whining and him being such a merciful master to Stone by given him a job.

    I'm pretty sure if Alex Jones gets investigated for anything he could probably taken off the air, no way this guy is running a legitimated business.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    They should send the swat after all of the Trump people they arrest from now on.
    Might just be easier to arrest the entire senior staff of the Trump Campaign, at least those that testified because they all lied.

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